Fresh vs. Salt, Build or Buy, Which Fish, deep moral debate.

[indy]

Haus: Ya, it's home made. The outside paneling is tongue and groove that's been attached together and a pair of 1x2's along the back for added support. The main support is all paired 2x4's and then misc. wood for trim. It has 2 large hinged lids with about a 6" center support section. I'm pretty happy with how it turned out. The pic is from right after I completed it and got everything moved over. It's got a bunch of softies growing in it now.

archie1709: Exactly my point, I'm not counting in the odd pennies here and there, I'm looking at a concept. You can easily get started in this hobby on a small budget.

malkore: I tend to use 1 return pump for every system whether it's a powerhead or sump pump. I always split the output into at least 2 actual returns. If you look at my pic I've actually got 2 main lines, 1 along each side of the top of the tank. Each line is broken into 3 returns and it switches l/r with a sqwd. I suggest similar for single powerheads.

I always recomend playsand unless you really want aragonite.

The ocean contains massive amounts of silica sand. Glass is made of silica. Your tank is made of glass more than likely. You have silica in your tank. Silica is not bad thing. Silicate is a bad thing because it is made of silicic acid and is an entirely different animal than silica.

silica - A white or colorless crystalline compound, occurring abundantly as quartz, sand, flint, agate, and many other minerals and used to manufacture a wide variety of materials, especially glass and concrete.

slicate - 1. Any of numerous compounds containing silicon, oxygen, and one or more metals; a salt of silicic acid.
2. Any of a large group of minerals, forming over 90 percent of the earth's crust, that consist of SiO2 or SiO4 groupings combined with one or more metals and sometimes hydrogen.


lando: This is not bare bones in any way. It is just an excelent start on a FOWLR tank. My suggestion isn't for the end result of an sps tank, but a way to get a foot in the door and have a healthy tank.

Anyway, agree or not I've said my piece. I'm not trying to change anyone's religion here, although sometimes it would appear to be an easier challenge.

 

[Guest]

The member posted that there is a $300 budget and could it be done. Based on your quote, the answer is probably not.

Yeah, I also said between $300 and $500. Did you see the $300 part? When you say you can pull a setup between $300-$500, does that mean you cannot set it up at $300? Are you blind?

If you know how to look and do a lot of common sense, yes $300 is possible.

JChillin, he said $300 to start up. It doesn't mean $300 for the WHOLE HOBBY.

And yes, I did say that if between the salties and the cichlid, the cichlid cannot even compete. The cichlids suck. And I own one. I am telling you, between the two, the cichlids suck. You can disagree. But this is my opinion between salties and cichlid. Take it to the bank.

 

[Jchillin]

We seem to have a quorum already:

I did say that FW fish are not boring due to the species you mention yourself archie1709. I also said that I enjoy and admire SW tanks specifically for the number of different types of life that is present.

The correction to $300-$500 is appreciated.

As expected, I figured that posting my opinions regarding FW would be challenged. My posts were intended as an option. I did not intend to create a "my fish is better than your fish" situation. You are entitled to your opinion and I would not attempt to change it.

 

[Fluff]

And yes, I did say that if between the salties and the cichlid, the cichlid cannot even compete. The cichlids suck. And I own one. I am telling you, between the two, the cichlids suck. You can disagree. But this is my opinion between salties and cichlid. Take it to the bank.

Everyone is entitled to thier opinion but you know what they say about opinions and ... well, nevermind.
Anyway, lets not make this post into a flame war. Some of the comments really weren't necessary and could've been said in a more appropriate and adult manner.

 

[rhymeswithbear]

It sound to me like manooosie could choose between either a really spectacular FW tank, or a very basic SW one. In my opinion, there are beautiful FW fish, and there are beautiful SW fish, but I would rather have the very best for my fish than only have their basic necessities met. I would advise FW, because I think it's better to have the best than to just have the basics.

 

[lando]

Any way you look at it, $200 to start a SW tank is a pretty tough undertaking.
Indy, the tank you have pictured (very nice, by the way) is going to cost almost anyone more then $200. I am just trying to be practical here. There are so many things you do not even consider needing when starting a tank. Turns out you do, $10 here, $29 there...well, it all adds up. This hobby does not have to break the bank, just know it WILL cost more then you have budgeted for. That is a fact.
archie1709...grow up. You are certainly intitled to your own opinion just keep it on a moe mature level. If you are unable to post in a respectful manner, don't bother posting at all.

 

[indy]

Ya can definately feel the tensions mounting, which is why I'm not going to continue the debate. I never intended for my responses to get everyone riled up, I just don't want to see people get discouraged too easily. I put off a sw tank for years because of the figures that got quoted to me at every fish store.

Thanks for the compliment on the tank. It looks a lot better now then when I first got it set up and I'm happy with it. It lives in my dining room and is always an eye catcher. I'm getting ready to buy a new house soon and I'm already waking up screaming at the mere thought of moving it. Makes me almost wish I'd stuck with a goldfish I'm into it for about 800-1000 not counting the livestock. And someday I'll finally buy a better skimmer, but right now the $ isn't there for one. It definately does add up over time, which is why I try not to think about it too often.

Now everyone take a breath and count backwards from 10...

 

[lando]

Thanks for the compliment on the tank

You are welcome. I actually love the shape, short and fat makes for a great SW tank. The point I am trying to make is most people do not figure in all of the extra purchases you need to make. You may be able to get al of the equipment for around $200 (buying used and new) but it serves no purpose if it is not filled with water and fish. This is where things start to add up. All of the extras plus on-going maintanacne costs can dwindle a budget in no time. Don't worry, I am not riled up. However, blanket statements like "cichlids suck" are just not called for. Many people on this forum keep them and may be offended by such extreme statements. It is totally disrespectful...

 

[manooosie]

Things seriously heated up in this thread, and it has nothing to do with my moral debate 8) . Good news guys. My budget just increased closer to 400, but 350 would be ideal. I have now been to every single fish store in Las Vegas over the past couple of days. I have found a couple of good stores, and I am so excited to get started. I have monitored the classifieds, but it could be a while before I find something satisfactory, since my wife wants a paticular look for the tank(nice stand and canopy). Here the best I can do new:
55g glass tank with top and lights: $60
Unfinsihed Stand with cupboards: $90
Unifinished Canopy: $75
Total=225

Its a lot, but my wife wants to paint it herself and I dont think I could build anything she would be happy with. that leaves 175 for everything else. What I really need now is to compare costs between fw and sw accessories that I will need. Based on this thread, here is what I got so far:

SW accessories:
$40- brand new Prism Skimmer, from Ebay

$10- Instant Ocean salt bag

$10- Sand from Home Depot(Not sure about the price here)

$50- Base Rock(I have no clue about the price here. I imagine building up to live rock[helps with filtration right?], but have no plans for coral[at least for a couple of years]).

$30- 400GPH powerhead, from Ebay (Someone mentioned needing two 300 powerheads. If this is reasonable I would do it, I want to error on over doing it. I don't know the cost however.)

$50- Fish. I know this is cheap, but it will expand with time. I don't need a spectacular aquarium right away, just add to it as the money comes.

$20- Plants.

$30- Water Kit.

Total: 240
225
+240
=465

This could work, but I could not go higher. I am sure I have costs missing, and some of my numbers are off. It would be so helpful if some of you could give me input into where I could cut costs in this setup. Also, if someone could outline a comparable fw list that would be great.

 

[lando]

Nice job with your research. This can be done if you buy things a little at a time. It is a lot easier on the wallet. Go ahead and get the big purchases out of the way, tanks, stand, canopy if you want it. Over time, get everything else you need item by item. Check out online shops, you can save a lot of money.

 

[Fluff]

Check with the site sponsors for online purchases.

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/sponsorbanners.php

 

[Guest]

Thanks for your constructive criticism about my comments. You will meet people that are opinionated on such matters like these.

I may have been a bit forthcoming with my oopinion of cichlids. I am a proud cichlid owner who's been in teh cichlid hobby for at least 2 years. I am a member of the cichlid-forum.com forum.

My point was that SW beginners should not be underestimated for their will to have SW tanks. I know your opinion on FW are valid but there's thins underlying arrogance when you say "Do freshwater, it's cheaper and easier". You shouldn't say that to someone who is interested in the hobby.

He wanted to start-up a SW tank with a budget of around $300. We say it is possible. Some of you say "I am the all-knowing" and I will say stick to your FW hobby. You shouldn't say that. Anyone who gets into a hobby, whether it be cross-stitching or SW tanks, you will spend money. The guy has work and has ain income. Don't assume that he only has $300 FLAT on the hobby itself.

He wants to start-up and we say "yes you can for that money". Then you need to eventually add some more. You can have, for that budget, a FOWLR with damsels and clown. That's how I started with my population.

I just happened to be poorly patient and wanted everything brand new from the store shelf. That cost me. If you look around, you will save hundredsd.

For the people who were offended of the "cichlids suck" comment, I apologize for your feelings. With that said, it's my opinoin.

 

[manooosie]

You can't rest your case, I need you to check my list of things to get! Also, if someone could break down a freshwater tank...

 

[Fluff]

My only suggestion to you archie1709 is, if you have a problem with another member, take it to PM or contact one of the admin. It doesn't belong in a thread where everyone trying to help. Rather you agree with the other opinions or not. The only person being defended is the original poster. This rivalry of who's better, really isn't productive or what the poster needs nor does it have anything to do with the question at hand. Stay on topic or don't post.

Thanks for editing your post. 8)

 

[Guest]

Sorry. I edited my post for your viewing pleasure.

 

[indy]

Agree with lando on the research. Getting an unfished stand is a great idea, you can make it match your house intead of standing out.

Quick suggestion on your budget for the immediate future. Skip the skimmer, skip the plants, and skip the fish. That will save you $110. It will take a month or so to get everything set up and cycled. Until that's done you can't have fish anyway, and without fish you don't need a skimmer. And really, with a good dsb and LR filtration, you don't really need a skimmer for fish only. It should do a pretty good job of reducing nitrate all by itself. You can add a skimmer later as the need arrises.

Put the saved money in the bank for the next month or so until you're ready to go. And personaly, instead of fake plants, I'd take that money and buy 1 or 2 pieces of good looking live rock. The coraline and other life on it will spread throughout all your base rock. Slow but cheap and easy way to end up with a tank full of good looking live rock. I started with 3 pieces and now have about 150lbs of good looking rock. It just took a couple years to happen

For powerheads, you want to turn the tank over at least 10 times an hour. For a 55g tank you're looking at needing around 550gph of flow. A single 600+gph powerhead split into 2 outputs or a pair of 300gph powerheads put on either side of the tank would be ideal.

And lastly, remember to get sand marked as playsand. Construction grade sand is full of nasty stuff.

 

[manooosie]

awesome info indy, I am close to buying a salt water knowing I can afford it! I searched bigals and found this:

http://www.bigalsonline.com/catalog/product.xml?product_id=27211;category_id=3193;pcid1=;pcid2=

It says its for 40-70 gallon tanks, but only puts out 350 gallons per hour(and what does reverse do?). Do I need more power since I will be lacking other equipment?

 

[bound_for_obx]

The reverse is for use with an undergravel filter. I would suggest that you use 2 of those powerheads in a 55 gal tank. You could place them on the back wall and aim them at each other to get a nice turbulent water flow in the tank

 

[coolchinchilla]

As far as FW & SW, they both have their place in the hobby. You can see why most websites dedicate themselves to one side or the other because people are deeply committed to their "side." LOL! That's why I like AA because we can get great perspective and experience from both salt and fresh people.

As far as equipment and the like, you have to agree that people differ in how resourceful they are or how patient. I have no interest or skill or equipment to make my own stand so I'd buy it new or used. I admire you DIY folks. I'm only so-so as far as locating things on sale or in the paper.

On the FW side, who doesn't enjoy the dog-like devotion of an oscar or the regal beauty of discus or angels. Some underwater gardens are lovely. Personally, I want to graduate to a planted discus tank eventually. This is not to say that saltwater set ups aren't just as neat, I just want to do a discus tank

coolchinchilla

 

[manooosie]

$10- Instant Ocean salt bag

$10- Sand from Home Depot

$30- Live Rock(How much would I need just to start? Is this a reasonable cost? If I buy just a couple would other base rock eventually become alive? I can wait for that to happen if its true. I have no plans for coral in the near future.)

$50- 2 x 300GPH powerheads, from Ebay

$50- Fish. I know this is cheap, but it will expand with time. I don't need a spectacular aquarium right away, just add to it as the money comes.

$20- Plants.

$30- Water Kit.

Total: 240
225
+200
= 425

Is this really all I need? Seems like not a big deal considering its a saltwater tank. Is there any where I could cut costs? Again, thanks for your help.