Hello from Canada

[michmich]

I started this hobby very innocently and naively about 6 months ago. I bought a 10 gallon tank and luckily did enough research to cycle the tank before adding inhabitants. That started me on a massive quest for knowledge, as I started reading about which fish live well together and water parameters and all that good stuff. I initially settled on a few guppies, a couple platies and 3 corydoras.

Fast forward 6 months later, I've expanded to adding a 20 gallon tank, and at the moment, I'm transitioning the 10 gallon to a guppy only tank as one of the newly bought guppies just gave birth. Currently, there are 4 baby fish swimming around and doing great!

In the past month, I have come up against the wall of not being able to get medications here in Canada. I've decided to join this community in the hopes that I can get some advice on how best to use the treatments that are available here.

I will be heading over to the forum which deals with fish diseases, as I am currently dealing with an issue with my 2 platies.

In any case, I thought I would introduce myself here first and then have a look around the forum!

 

[Colin_T]

Hi and welcome to the forum

You don't need many medications for fish. Salt, heat and water conditioner cover most fish health issues.

You can treat white spot and velvet by raising the water temperature to 30C (86F) for 2-4 weeks (2 weeks for white spot, 4 weeks for velvet).

You can treat most minor bacterial, fungal and external protozoan infections with salt (2 heaped tablespoons of salt per 20 litres/ 5 gallons of water). See directions below for more info on salt.

A lot of other issues can be dealt with by doing big (75%) water changes and gravel cleaning the substrate every day for a week. And cleaning the filter.
Make sure any new water is free of chlorine/ chloramine before it's added to the tank.


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SALT

Using Salt to Treat Fish Health Issues.
For some fish diseases you can use salt (sodium chloride) to treat the ailment rather than using a chemical based medication. Salt is relatively safe and is regularly used in the aquaculture industry to treat food fish for diseases. Salt has been successfully used to treat minor fungal and bacterial infections, as well as a number of external protozoan infections. Salt alone will not treat whitespot (Ichthyophthirius) or Velvet (Oodinium) but will treat most other types of external protozoan infections in freshwater fishes. Salt can treat early stages of hole in the head disease caused by Hexamita but it needs to be done in conjunction with cleaning up the tank. Salt can also be used to treat anchor worm (Lernaea), fish lice (Argulus), gill flukes (Dactylogyrus), skin flukes (Gyrodactylus), Epistylis, Microsporidian and Spironucleus infections.

You can add rock salt (often sold as aquarium salt) swimming pool salt, or any non iodised salt (sodium chloride) to the aquarium at the dose rate of 1 heaped tablespoon per 20 litres of water. If there is no improvement after 48 hours you can double that dose rate so there is 2 heaped tablespoons of salt per 20 litres.

If you only have livebearers (guppies, platies, swordtails, mollies), goldfish or rainbowfish in the tank you can double that dose rate, so you would add 2 heaped tablespoons per 20 litres and if there is no improvement after 48 hours, then increase it so there is a total of 4 heaped tablespoons of salt per 20 litres.

Keep the salt level like this for at least 2 weeks but no longer than 4 weeks otherwise kidney damage can occur. Kidney damage is more likely to occur in fish from soft water (tetras, Corydoras, angelfish, Bettas & gouramis, loaches) that are exposed to high levels of salt for an extended period of time, and is not an issue with livebearers, rainbowfish or other salt tolerant species.

The salt will not affect the beneficial filter bacteria but the higher dose rate (4 heaped tablespoons per 20 litres) will affect some plants and some snails. The lower dose rate (1-2 heaped tablespoons per 20 litres) will not affect fish, plants, shrimp or snails.

After you use salt and the fish have recovered, you do a 10% water change each day for a week using only fresh water that has been dechlorinated. Then do a 20% water change each day for a week. Then you can do bigger water changes after that. This dilutes the salt out of the tank slowly so it doesn't harm the fish.

If you do water changes while using salt, you need to treat the new water with salt before adding it to the tank. This will keep the salt level stable in the tank and minimise stress on the fish.

When you first add salt, add the salt to a small bucket of tank water and dissolve the salt. Then slowly pour the salt water into the tank near the filter outlet. Add the salt over a couple of minutes.

 

[michmich]

Thank you for your reply! I have been using salt. I removed the 2 platies from the main tank and have had them swimming in an aquarium salt mixture of 1 tbsp salt per 4 litres water in a hospital tank. One platy seems recovered, and there is improvement in the other one. However, there's this white stuff around the eye that seems stubborn. My plan is to move the healthy platy back to the main tank and up the dose of salt for the play with the eye issue. I've also been adding the recommended dose of Melafix which is a tea tree derivative.

This is what the affliction looks like:

 

[Colin_T]

The platy has excess mucous over its eye and head. This is the fish's way of adding some protection to a damaged area.

The swollen eye could have been caused by a physical injury (swimming into something or being roughly handled or attacked).

The excess mucous on the head is probably linked to the eye but can be caused by something (poor water quality, medications, plant fertiliser, etc) in the water irritating the fish, or an external protozoan infection like Costia, Chilodonella or Trichodina.

Protozoan infections should respond to 2 heaped tablespoons of rock salt per 20 litres (5 gallons) of water. Keep salt in there for 2 weeks.

The best way to treat damaged eyes or something in the water is with big (75%) daily water changes and gravel cleaning the substrate.
Make sure any new water is free of chlorine/ chloramine before it's added to the tank.

 

[michmich]

Thank you so much for taking the time to respond to me! It helps to have some direction on what could be happening. I do believe that there was some infection that came from a fish I introduced to the main tank without quarantining. The other platy was flashing which is why she's in the hospital tank as well.

I will go to the next level with the salt dosing, and hopefully the white mucous will eventually disappear. I feel better knowing that I might be doing the right thing with the salt!

 

[Colin_T]

Fish rubbing on objects is usually caused by an external protozoan infection (white spot, velvet, Costia, Chilodonella & Trichodina), but can also be caused by poor water quality or chemicals in the water. However, poor water quality often means there are high numbers of protozoa in the water that also infect the fish.

Monitor all the fish in all your tanks for white dots on the body and fins, that is white spot (Ichthyophthirius).

You can use a digital camera with the flash ON, to take pictures of the fish when the tank lights are off. Look for any yellow/ gold sheen over part or all of the body. If they have a yellow/ gold sheen, they have velvet.

If they develop cream, white or grey patches over their head, body or fins, that is usually Costia, Chilodonella or Trichodina.

If they get a cream, white or grey film over their entire head, body and fins, that is poor water quality or something in the water that is irritating the fish. A big water change (75%) and gravel cleaning the substrate every day for a week will usually fix this issue.
Make sure any new water is free of chlorine/ chloramine before it's added to the tank.

 

[michmich]

Thank you for your detailed responses! It's a big help and helps me focus on one line of treatment. Before joining this forum, the internet was driving me crazy with all the possibilities of what could be going on and trying to do the right thing while thinking it was probably the wrong thing.

I have increased the salt dosage to the amount you have recommended and have decided to keep the other platy in the hospital tank with the one who has the eye issue. I am doing daily water changes in the hospital tank as well.

At the same time, I have increased my cleanings of the main tank in case there are any protozoa left in there with 25% water changes and thorough syphoning of the gravel.

Of course, I always use Prime water conditioner to dechlorinate the water before adding it to the tank. I also usually leave the water at least overnight to off gas.

The platies have been in the hospital tank for 10 days now. How much longer can they stay in the saline water?

 

[Colin_T]

Normally you keep salt in the water for 2 weeks when treating external protozoan infections, but you can keep the salt in there for up to 4 weeks. However, 2 weeks is normally enough to kill any external protozoan parasites like Costia, Chilodonella & Trichodina.

Regarding the platy with the damaged eye, you have salt in there for 2 weeks and it normally fixes the problem. If it hasn't improved during that time, then salt isn't helping and you might need something a little stronger. Methylene Blue or Triple Sulpha (Tri Sulfa) can be used if available and salt isn't working. But if there is no improvement after a week with either of those medications, then stop treating and do big daily water changes for a couple of weeks. If that doesn't help, then nothing will and the eye is probably seriously damaged and won 't get better.

Methylene Blue will kill beneficial filter bacteria and stain silicon blue. Silicon is the glue used to hold glass aquariums together. The silicon being stained does not damage, weaken or harm the silicon in any way, it simply turns it blue. But biological filters should be removed from tanks and put in another tank when you use Methylene Blue.

 

[michmich]

So, this morning, both fish were flashing. I guess whatever parasite has infected them is going through its cycle?

I have had them in the lower dose saline water for 2 weeks. Do you think it's okay if I keep them in the higher dose saline water for another 2 weeks for a total of 4 weeks? I also did a 75% water change today and will continue to do that. Do you think I should also add methylene blue for good measure or will that stress them out?

They still have their appetite and they are both swimming around fairly normally (minus the flashing.)

 

[Colin_T]

If they are rubbing more often, then they probably have white spot.

You can also post more pictures and maybe a 1 minute video of them rubbing and I will see if I can spot anything on them that shouldn't be there. You can upload videos to YouTube, then copy & paste the link here.

Don't mix medications or treatments unless you absolutely have to. The more chemicals or salt you add to the tank, the more stress you put on the fish.

I would stop using salt if you have already been using it for 2 weeks and just try heat treatment (30C for 2 weeks). If they continue to rub on things after that check them for velvet.

 

[michmich]

Their movements have become more twitchy since this morning - especially the platy with the eye affliction. They are in a hospital tank which is why there is no gravel or anything besides the plastic plant. They don't seem very comfortable...

 

[michmich]

I hope I'm not posting too many updates. Today the platies aren't flashing nearly as much as they were yesterday. The one who seems the most healthy has been excreting the dreaded stringy, translucent white poop with sporadic white lumps. She has been doing that for some time with normal looking excretions as well. I'm attaching a photo. If this is a sign of internal parasites, I don't know what to do about it. In Canada, there aren't any medications. Is salt or heat going to do anything? Do I have options?

I am at my wit's end with what to do for these two. They are clearly not healthy enough to add back to the main tank. I am now doing big water changes every day, and slowly reducing the salt day by day. I don't have a heater which can be set to a temperature. I just have one of those small betta heaters for the small hospital tank, but if heat might do something for them, I'm willing to try it.

On a positive note, I think the other platy's eye is clearing up....

I would like to save them if I can just because they have been such amazing troopers, putting up with all these treatments. They're still swimming and eating!

 

[Colin_T]

You can put a picture on the back of the hospital tank to make the fish feel more secure. You can buy aquarium backings at any pet shop or online. You can also use coloured card, a plastic bin liner or even a sheet of newspaper. Just tape it to the outside of the tank.

Hospital tanks should have a thin layer of gravel or sand to stop the fish seeing their reflection on the bottom. You just need enough to cover the base with a thin (1/4 inch) layer of dark coloured substrate.

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I can't tell much from the videos.

The picture showing the fish that is pale on the front half of the body can be from stress or a bacterial infection. However, bacteria normally stop the fish from eating and the fish dies within a few days of showing the discolouration.

Salt should have killed off anything minor that was on their bodies so I doubt it's bacterial. Monitor the platy and see if it gets worse over the next few days. Post more pictures if it does.


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If the fish start rubbing again in a few days, it is either white spot or velvet and you should be able to get a medication that contains Malachite Green or copper. Both of these chemicals will kill any external protozoan infections. However, monitor and wait and see before getting medications or using them.

If they stop rubbing in a few days and it doesn't start again, you won't need to treat them for external protozoan parasites.


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Salt and low heat won't do anything to internal health issues like stringy white poop. That is usually caused by intestinal worms.

Intestinal Worms like tapeworm and threadworms cause the fish to lose weight, continue eating and swimming normally, and do a stringy white poop. Fish can do this for months and not be too badly affected. In some cases, fish with a bad worm infestation will actually gain weight and get fat and look like a pregnant guppy. This is due to the huge number of worms inside the fish.

Livebearers like guppies, mollies, swordtails & platies are regularly infected with gill flukes and intestinal worms. If the fish are still eating well, then worms is the most likely cause.

You can use Praziquantel to treat tapeworm and gill flukes. And use Levamisole to treat thread/ round worms. If you can't find these medications, look for Flubendazole, which treats both lots of worms.

In the UK look for:
eSHa gdex contains praziquantel that treats tapeworm and gill flukes.
eSHa-ndx contains levamisole and treats thread/ round worms.
NT Labs Anti-fluke and Wormer contains flubendazole.
Kusuri wormer plus (contains flubendazole) - sold mainly for discus, comes as a powder which is quite hard to dose in smaller tanks
Sera nematol (contains emamectin)

Remove carbon from filters before treatment and increase aeration/ surface turbulence to maximise oxygen levels in the water.

You treat the fish once a week for 4 weeks. The first treatment will kill any worms in the fish. The second, third and forth treatments kill any baby worms that hatch from eggs inside the fish's digestive tract.

Treat every fish tank in the house at the same time to prevent cross contamination.

You do a 75% water change and complete gravel clean 24-48 hours after treatment. Clean the filter 24 hours after treatment too.

Do not use the 2 medications together. If you want to treat both medications in a short space of time, use Praziquantel on day one. Do a 75% water change and gravel clean the substrate on day 2 & 3. Treat the tank with Levamisole on day 4 and do a 75% water change and gravel clean on day 5, 6 & 7 and then start with Praziquantel again on day 8.

The water changes will remove most of the medication so you don't overdose the fish the next time you treat them. The gravel cleaning will suck out any worms and eggs that have been expelled by the fish. Repeating the treatment for 3-4 doses at weekly intervals will kill any worms that hatch from eggs. At the end of the treatment you will have healthier fish.

 

[michmich]

It looks like I can get my hands on Praziquantel but not Levamisole or Flubendazole.

I definitely think the platy with the stringy poop has worms because she is eating fine but has been excreting like that for a while now. Is it possible that she is flashing due to the worms? Could the other platy have the worms too especially since they've been in the hospital tank together for the past 2 weeks?

I will try the Praziquantel and see if that does the trick. Can I use it on the tank with the baby fish in it? That's the one that the platies were in before I removed them. Also, there will still be some salt in the hospital tank for the next week, as I gradually replace it with freshwater. Can I use the Praziquantel even with saline water or should I wait until it's completely salt free?

I will add a layer of gravel to the hospital tank and some paper backing. Thanks for the tip!

 

[Colin_T]

Common livebearers like platies, guppies, mollies & swordtails regularly have thread worms like Camallanus. Sometimes they have tapeworm too or instead of thread worms, but it is usually thread worms. If you can't find Levamisole or Flubendazole on their own, look for the medications listed below. They are deworming products sold in the UK, which has similar laws and requirements to Canada when it comes to medications.

The UK sells the following fish deworming medications.
eSHa gdex contains praziquantel that treats tapeworm and gill flukes.
eSHa-ndx contains levamisole and treats thread/ round worms.
NT Labs Anti-fluke and Wormer contains flubendazole.
Kusuri wormer plus (contains flubendazole) - sold mainly for discus, comes as a powder which is quite hard to dose in smaller tanks
Sera nematol (contains emamectin)


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If one fish in a tank has intestinal worms, they all have intestinal worms. The worms produce eggs that end up in the water and the fish pick them up. They don't always show any symptoms, but the majority of aquarium fishes (especially common livebearers) coming out of Asian fish farms, are riddled with intestinal worms. The fact one of your fish has symptoms, would suggest they all have worms.


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Yes you can use Praziquantel or Levamisole in aquariums that have salt in them. The water sometimes gets a milky cloudy appearance to it when you first add Levamisole, but it is harmless and clears pretty quickly. Most times there is no change in the water clarity when you add the dewormer.

Just make sure there is plenty of aeration/ surface turbulence because most fish medications and salt reduce the oxygen carrying capacity of water. You need extra aeration/ surface turbulence to compensate for the medications/ salt reducing the oxyen level in the water.

 

[michmich]

I dosed the hospital tank with praziquantel yesterday. This morning both fish are still eating with a good appetite. The platy with the stringy poop has been excreting a lot of little white clumps. I hope this means the medicine is working!

The other platy had some skin coming off over her good eye. I've attached a photo that I took during their feeding. It looks like flake food, but it's actually some skin. Alas, I don't think the other eye is looking any better... She has episodes where she is clearly trying to scratch the area on top of her head and looks quite uncomfortable. The rest of the time, she's a bit subdued but still has her appetite.

Update: the piece of skin has fallen off now

Should I get the malachite green and add it to the water which has the praziquantel in it or should I wait until after I do the big water change? I can also get Fritz Coppersafe if that would be a better option though it's a lot more expensive.

 

[Colin_T]

The cream/ white stuff on the eye and pectoral (side) fins is excess mucous produced by the fish to cover and protect the injured area. All fish have a thin layer of clear mucous over their body and fins. It helps them slip through the water easier but also acts as a first line of defense against microscopic organisms in the water. When a fish is stressed or injured, it produces more mucous that appears as a cream, white or grey film or patch over part or all of the body. The platy has an injured eye and damage to the pectoral fins, and is producing more mucous over those areas because they are damaged.

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Never mix different medications together because you can kill the fish. If you want to use the Malachite Green or copper (they both work), do a huge (80-90%) water change 24 hours after using the Praziquantel and then add the Malachite Green/ copper based medication. Use the Malachite Green/ copper for a week and then do another huge water change before re-dosing with the Praziquantel.

If there is an external protozoan infection, the Malachite Green or copper should kill it off in 3-4 days.

I know I said never mix medications, but if you are buying a medication with Malachite Green in, see if you can find one that has Methylene Blue as well. The two medications are often sold combined as one medication and it might help stop the pectoral fins rotting away.

 

[michmich]

I have the malachite green now. There is still a bit of salt in the hospital tank. Is it safe to use the malachite green?

 

[Colin_T]

I have the malachite green now. There is still a bit of salt in the hospital tank. Is it safe to use the malachite green?

yes its fine

 

[michmich]

Okay, malachite green added! I will dose with that for 4 days and then do a big water change and do the 2nd weekly praziquantel dose.

I also ordered Expel - P from amazon which has levamisole in it and that should arrive on the weekend. The platy with the stringy poop is still excreting stringy poop, so I probably need the levamisole as well. I will dose that 24 hrs later after another massive water change.

I've had to add the adult guppy to the hospital tank from the main aquarium because she has started flashing.

This has been and continues to be such an ordeal! I believe it all came from adding fish without proper quarantine. Unfortunately, you learn from innocent mistakes, and those mistakes cause a lot of stress. You don't get ANY of this information when you buy your first aquarium and fish at the pet store. It's a very steep learning curve!

The hospital tank looks cozy and safe now with a nice backing and gravel. At least I'm set up for the future with a well equipped hospital/quarantine tank and a shelf of fish medicines. I hope that some of these fish will survive and be healthy again!