Iron Test Kit?

[Alshain]

I'm sorry for being short with you guys, I just got a little frustrated (its been that kind of week). I did see your reccomendation Steve, but I didn't quite understand how it could help. I can only manually remove it from the glass really, although it does come free very easily it would be difficult for me to remove the algae growing on the plants themselves. Will it die off once the water parameters stabalize?

Secondly, I'm not sure I understand the dosing reccomendation either. Everything I've seen says this kind of algae grows due to an excess of iron. How can doing more solve that?

 

[7Enigma]

My recommendation was for how to make sure you have proper amounts. Low iron can cause a deficiency, so can low nitrogen amounts (ammonia). A deficiency can lead to leaky leaves, where what you put in can also come back out at the spot of the damage.

By your dosing amount and schedule you appear to be dosing too little iron. I was trying to help you determine the proper dosing amount so that you can rule out iron as your problem.

 

[Purrbox]

The idea that excess nutrients cause algae outbreaks is quickly becoming old school thought. With more recent experimentation when maintaining all nutrients readily available and then dosing an excess of one particular nutrient, like iron, algae was not induced. However when keeping all nutrients available and then limiting one nutrient, certain types of algae could be induced repeatedly.

The one exception being a spike in Ammonia can cause an outbreak of GW, and possibly other algae. Since Ammonia is dangerous to fish and causing algae outbreaks we dose Nitrate instead even though it isn't as easy for plants to make use of.

For plants covered in algae you will need to either manually remove the algae from the leaves if possible or remove the affected leaves. If the majority of a plant is affected would result in your removing most or all of the leaves, you can remove the worst affected leaves first and give the plant some time to recover and put out new leaves, then remove the rest of the affected leaves.

 

[Steve Hampton]

I'm sorry for being short with you guys, I just got a little frustrated (its been that kind of week). I did see your reccomendation Steve, but I didn't quite understand how it could help.

I'm sorry for my lack of patience too. I rarely ever react that way...I understand completely about having a bad week, mine has been less than stellar too. Lets forget that and move on to fixing what you've got going.

I can only manually remove it from the glass really, although it does come free very easily it would be difficult for me to remove the algae growing on the plants themselves. Will it die off once the water parameters stabalize?

Manually removing can mean removal of some of the worse infected leaves. Some algae will begin to disappear but a two prong approach of manually removing either by twisting a toothbrush around thread algae or clipping off leaves with heaving infestations coupled with setting all your water parameters will work the quickest and most successfully.

Secondly, I'm not sure I understand the dosing reccomendation either. Everything I've seen says this kind of algae grows due to an excess of iron. How can doing more solve that?

Excess iron by itself doesn't cause any algae. We can prove that in healthy tanks. I can add gobs and gobs of TMG or CSM+B (both and traces plus iron providers) and never cause an algae problem if everything else is in ample supply and no ammonia or nitrite is in the tank. So its obvious that iron isn't the culprit. Some people may indeed see algae form after dosing iron in tanks that are already suffering with some other deficiency.

Honestly the advice on the net is often confusing and contradictory. However, you can trust in info dispensed here as there are very knowledgable and reliable hobbyist.

As Purrbox alluded to, much of the all thinking about nutrient limitation being the way to control algae has been resoundingly disproven. But, unfortunately much of that information still shows up on goole searches and printed texts.

The key to success with planted tanks is fairly straight forward. Never allow ammonia or nitrite in a planted tank. Never allow CO2 or any nutrient (including phosphate) to become your limting growth factor. Always let your lighting become your limiting growth factor. Enough light, gobs of CO2 and nutrients and plants will prosper and algae will not.

 

[Alshain]

Ok, so my cycle finished and I went to Petsmart who was having a 50% off sale because they are redesigning their store. I bought the last of their ottos and moved the lone survivor from my 12 gallon for a total of 7. Also I got a free (large) MTS and moved about a half dozen mid-sized from my 12 gallon too. 2 days later, the algae is almost gone (without manual removal at all!). There is still some on the tips of the hairgrass, I think the ottos can't "latch" onto it so I will probably trim the grass back.

I began to dose 5 ml of 3.25 tsp in 250 ml of water of the Plantex CSM+B 3 times a week (is that enough) along with 1 capful of Flourish Excel. On the off days 1.5 tsp potassium sulfate (unless nitrate is needed, then less) and then potassium nitrate and phosphate as indicated by tests. Everything sound ok? I don't imagine I will need the nitrate for too much longer, once I get fully stocked it should be taken care of. So, any other suggestions?

I have one other problem, since adding the MTS and Ottos, some of the leaves on my Red Wentii are developing "holes" one leaf is dead completely. I'm wondering whats the cause? So far its only the older leaves, I was going to trim these eventually anyway because it was "mistrained" to grow tall and green at the petstore but I'm hoping the nice new red leaves don't end up with the same fate. Any ideas there?

EDIT: On second thought this could be what is refered to as "crypt melt". I did do a 98% water change before adding the fish.

 

[Purrbox]

The holes sound like Potassium Deficiency. Unless you recently upped your Potassium dosing, you might want to try dosing 5ppm more each dose. With Crypt Melt the leaves will turn transparent and disintegrate, basically looks like they are melting away.

 

[Plantbrain]

maybe you can find someone that has access to an ICP (inductively coupled plasma) or an AA (Atomic Absorbsion) unit? The ICP unit I use has an LOQ of 5ppb. that should be good enough for what you are looking for. Ask any chemist you know.

It'll be accurate but does not test bio available Fe.
Water column Fe is a poor indicator for limiting conditions for rrooted aquatic plants.
That's because when you add liquid Fe, it rapidly precitates in the tank water is the testing is very time dependent as well as alkalinity dependent and PO4 dependent, spec ifically SRP PO4 dependent, most every single test sold to aquarist are total PO4,not inorganic forms.

So basically it's a very complex issues, thus to suggestion: there are no reliable methods to test for good ranges of Fe in the water column.

Well, there is one: watch your plants. Add progressively more till there is no positive response further and then you have achieved the max rate for plant growth given that........and this is very important..........that the other nutrients and CO2 are non limiting as well and you have ample lighting.


Not many folks have these AA's nor IPC's, I do, but I work as a researcher killing aquatic weeds. I can take samples, but these tend to be for pore water in hydro soils, not water column.

A note: if tyou insist on doing fishless cycling, something I think it very bad for aquarist to bother with as a principle and in theory, that holds for all tanks, regardless of plants or not, simply place the filter in a bucket with NH3 for 3 weeks, add 10ppm of NH3 and leave it and add more say 5ppm each week, at the end of 3 weeks. also, add some dirt, yes, plain old dirt.

No need to add NH3 to your tank.
There are several ways to get around the FC foolishness.

1. Add mulm, this seeds the new tank with the dirt(mulm) from the sand when you vacuum deeply. This adds precisely what is missing from a new tank's gravel. The same deal is applied to a filter, take the dirt from the sponges and add to the new filter's intake.

Again, this adds precisely what is missing from a new tank that is present in a old tank that's well established.

Mulm is free. Most aquarist have friends in the hobby, local aquarium society members etc. A few folks live near a LFS, they are generally willing to give you some of their wet dirt
Mulm also provides a source of carbonm, the reduced kind bacteria need tio growm, they do not grow on NH3 alone, they also need other nutrients.

2. Zeolite. Removes the NH3 and turns into bio media after it's spent.

3. Plants. Directly removes the NH3.
Can place in a filter like refugiums in salt water tanks, plant filters in a sump, growing out the back of the filter etc.

4. Be sensible in stocking your fish!!

Jeeze.............if folks did this no one would ever need FC.
We somehow managed to breed discus and many species and keep them for many years, set up tank after tank at the LFS's for decades without Fishless cycling.

some how we managed to barely eek by, Come on..........
Both ways uphill in the snow barefoot..........

It's downright silly to consider this method and it's caused more issues for new folks that you can shake a stick at, killed folks 's fish that added them too soon, not because of the fish waste, but the left overs from FC, folks spend $$ on test kits etc instead of douign routine maintainence, things/habits that will provide a long term solution and save them money in the future.

Steve's a nice guy, I'm a lot more crotchety, but after helping folks at LFS back in 1970's till today at many different levels, I see these methods come and go, this one needs to go if you ask me, I can support my arguements and experineced folks can see the flaws in FC, newer folks ask why bother?

To prevent you same folks from making the same mistakes and so that you help others so we do not make the same mistakes and promote the same myths over and over and over again.

It's good to learn from experience, as long as it's not your own.

Grow plants, do common sense routines, load fish correctly, be reasonable in your stocking levels, do large frequent water changes.

Basically care more about your fish/plants and don't get lost in micro managing the test kits/NH4 dosing etc.

It's not as hard to do and provides better results over time.

Regards,
Tom Barr








Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[rkilling1]

I certainly hope I didn't inspire that whole post Tom.

 

[7Enigma]

Wow Tom,

I think that is the most irresponsible post I've ever read from you. I would wager a hefty amount of money that the average fish keeper that goes about the FC method is much more successful (both in fish health and in speed of stocking) than the more "traditional" methods. And I put traditional in quotes because like any hobby advancements are constantly being made.

Why drive your car when you can walk. Why email someone when you can call them, why call them when you can write a letter. See my point?

Just because something is an established way of doing something for a long period of time does not mean it is the quickest nor safest method of doing something.

Many people do not have access to mulm. Many people are starting up this hobby with no friends or family with established tanks. Sure they could go about adding one fish at a time and slowly stocking, or stock with plants and suffer an algae bloom (because you cannot honestly tell me that someone without access to mulm completely has down the fert dosing of plants too right?), or use the TRADITIONAL way of using "hearty" fish to deal with the toxic ammonia and nitrIte levels, and then get flushed or returned to a store, but is that the best way?

Other than Biospira, there is no current method other than fishless cycling where you can create a biological filter with a capacity for larger than your planned final fish population, while at the same time guaranteeing little to no maintainence. Sure you could have a heavily planted tank and never see an ammonia spike. But what happens when that beginner fishkeeper doesn't know to dose potassium, or waits on a water change since he's heard from others that you shouldn't do PWC during cycling? Now you have a deficiency. Now your plant growth is stunted and you WILL build ammonia levels in the tank. These WILL harm the fish.

Or gasp! What if they DO NOT want plants?

The fishless cycling method when properly performed and PATIENCE is applied, is the single easiest way to ensure that your fish will never suffer an ammonia burn, its that simple. You don't have to worry about algae (no lights are needed), you don't have to do water changes, you don't have to prune, rearrange, clean the filter, dose ferts, manage light levels, have DIY CO2 or Excel dosing, or even know what an aquatic plant is. All you have to do is add some ammonia source, and walk away. Yes people would love to be able to have that fish right away to watch (its our instant gratification need), but I'd rather have a fully stocked tank that I can be assured is safe for my fish, and won't require backbreaking PWC's if I added too quickly, or overfed, or improperly did a test.

I feel its a disservice to the hobby to call this method "foolish" and I think other members specifically on this forum will agree.

 

[Alshain]

The holes sound like Potassium Deficiency. Unless you recently upped your Potassium dosing, you might want to try dosing 5ppm more each dose. With Crypt Melt the leaves will turn transparent and disintegrate, basically looks like they are melting away.

This the entire leaf did melt away, and it had so many holes it it, that there wasnt much left of the leaf. It must have happened rather rapidly too. I'm wondering if the ottos didn't get to overzealous and eat the plant too. But the leaf was mush all the way down through the stem and was barely hanging on to the main part of the plant.

 

[Purrbox]

Okay, your further description does sound more like Crypt Melt. If you haven't already, placing a root tab under the affected crypt will help it to bounce back quicker.

 

[Plantbrain]

I certainly hope I didn't inspire that whole post Tom.

Naw
Not anyone in particular.

Folks often get going on anything new even if it's worse than the past methods folks used. It's baffling at times
Common sense often gets tossed out the window.
Then the LFS's start telling folks this poopycock.

I've seen more GW blooms due this "method" than I can count.
Cost folks lots of $ and hassle, headaches.
Generally folks come to the forums and web seeking help.
when you tell them that the method they used caused the problem, they often are left wondering who to believe and many different forms of advice.

Many more experienced aquarist try and warn new folks. This goes back many years now.

Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[Plantbrain]

Wow Tom,

I think that is the most irresponsible post I've ever read from you. I would wager a hefty amount of money that the average fish keeper that goes about the FC method is much more successful (both in fish health and in speed of stocking) than the more "traditional" methods. And I put traditional in quotes because like any hobby advancements are constantly being made.

You mean like the one where I established the causal link between Green water blooms and NH4? Or where I've not had a single measurement of NH4 in any new tank using mulm? Nor has other aquarist both new and very well experienced?

I made a list of things that prevent a need for FC.
There are many ways around anyone using this method.
All good and make sense over the long term.

Why drive your car when you can walk. Why email someone when you can call them, why call them when you can write a letter. See my point?

Why use FC when you have mulm, you can stock responsibly from the start, do routine water changes? Why wait 3 weeks with an empty tank?

Just because something is an established way of doing something for a long period of time does not mean it is the quickest nor safest method of doing something.

So now FC is safe and quick?
Than mulm? I add fish that same day, never had an issue.

Than routine water changes?
I can pack a tank and have little issue if I do routine large water changes.
Discus breeders have long done this FYI.

Many people do not have access to mulm. Many people are starting up this hobby with no friends or family with established tanks.

They must have gotten the fish from somewhere, a LFS should be more than willing to offer up a little mulm from a filter
If you don;t have local friends with tanks and none of your own, that can be ann issue, but most everyone has a source of fish they got their tank/livestock from and they are generally very gracious and willing to offer their dirt/mulm to seed a new hobbyist's tank.

Sure they could go about adding one fish at a time and slowly stocking, or stock with plants and suffer an algae bloom (because you cannot honestly tell me that someone without access to mulm completely has down the fert dosing of plants too right?), or use the TRADITIONAL way of using "hearty" fish to deal with the toxic ammonia and nitrIte levels, and then get flushed or returned to a store, but is that the best way?

I tell folks to do large frequent water changes if they need to add a lot of fish asap, this removes the NH4 directly and physically, pretty simple concept, still much cheaper and a better long term habit to learn for this hobby.

Adding fish and not overfeeding is wise as well.

If you pack a tank and over feed, plus not do routine water changes, that's a bad situation.

These are very simple things that often get over looked. Common sense things.

If these are done, then there is no need for FC.

Somehow folks managed in the past, come on, what do you think folks did long before the web and the FC method was promoted?

Other than Biospira, there is no current method other than fishless cycling where you can create a biological filter with a capacity for larger than your planned final fish population, while at the same time guaranteeing little to no maintainence.

"little to No mainteance".

Sorry, that is irresponsible aquarium keeping advice.

The other flaw is that mulm is widely available to most anyone on the web because at that point they already have a tank and are keeping fish, a few are thinking about it, but most folks do have access to mulm, that is live bacteria ready to go.

Yet another flaw=> plants.
They directly remove the NH4.

There is no cycle at all, which was the original point and why folks should really consider keeping healthy actively growing plants in their tanks.

Plants are better than Biospira, they also can be sold and look much better than bacteria They also habor lots of bacteria on their roots which seeds a new tank.

Sure you could have a heavily planted tank and never see an ammonia spike. But what happens when that beginner fishkeeper doesn't know to dose potassium, or waits on a water change since he's heard from others that you shouldn't do PWC during cycling? Now you have a deficiency. Now your plant growth is stunted and you WILL build ammonia levels in the tank. These WILL harm the fish.

Well if someone gets bad advice about plants, that's not the method's fault now is it?

Or gasp! What if they DO NOT want plants?

The fishless cycling method when properly performed and PATIENCE is applied,

What if I don't want to wait 3-4 weeks?
Same argument you asre presenting here.
Most everyone does not want to wait I've ever talked to.
And what about if they do not do it properly?

Same thing.
You should consider the counter to your own arguments.

is the single easiest way to ensure that your fish will never suffer an ammonia burn, its that simple.

I'd say common sense, mulm if you can get it, good feeding routines and frequent water changes would do a much better job.
These are things we told aquarist of all types long before you..............
and they work if the aquarist follwed the advic e as you say......"properly"......

You don't have to worry about algae (no lights are needed), you don't have to do water changes, you don't have to prune, rearrange, clean the filter, dose ferts, manage light levels, have DIY CO2 or Excel dosing, or even know what an aquatic plant is.

I have non CO2 plant tanks and also set them up the same way, never an issue.

Many report that with the non CO2 methods, no water changes either.
We do not rearrange/prune often, well, because there's no need.

If it's a non planted tank, getting rid of algae is a snap.
No water changes is a bad idea because the NH4 ends up as NO3.
there's no export unless use use a DBS or a water change or plants or resins.

So a water change is the simplest and easiest thing to suggest to anyone.
Which was one of the original pieces of advice I tell new folks in the hobby in general and in the aquatic plant hobby, unless it's a non CO2 method.

All you have to do is add some ammonia source, and walk away. Yes people would love to be able to have that fish right away to watch (its our instant gratification need), but I'd rather have a fully stocked tank that I can be assured is safe for my fish, and won't require backbreaking PWC's if I added too quickly, or overfed, or improperly did a test.

I feel its a disservice to the hobby to call this method "foolish" and I think other members specifically on this forum will agree.

Backbreaking PWC's? I use my brain, not my brawn, a wise aquarist would use a Python or your own DIY version is a must for anyone with tanks. Makes water changes with buckets sloshing around a thing of the past.

http://www.pythonproducts.com/nospill.htm

We used one DIY version as do most LFS's going back 40-50 years.
A hose, some PVC, unscrew a faucet, connect a hose and you are off.
Most marine folks premix in a large container and then use a pump to add the water.

Many set up automated water changes, I personally prefer the semi automated types, simply turn a valve and the tank drains except for a few inches. Turning another, the tank refills.

A little plumbing skill is all that tanks.

Newbies will not know about the Python water changers, nor think to plumb like this, but can be told at the LFS.
No one likes to test water. No one likes to spend $$$ on that.

I'd much rather see an aquarist spend their $$ on a python and not deal with a bucket ever again.

Then there is no need for FC and after a few weeks, no need for so frequent water changes either.

Long after the cycle is going, the python will be of use, while the FC method is no longer useful.

Floating water sprite is a nice NH4 sorber also and many folks at the LFS I worked at as kid got bags of it for their new tanks and came back with more bags to trade.

1.Adding plants, 2. doing frequent water changes, 3. routine common sense feeding of fish, 4. not overstocking to begin with, all these contribute to the tank long after the FC method is done.
Mulm is like Biospira, except it's free.
Don't have anyone and you have mean LFS that will not give you the dirt?
Try doing 1-4.
Works well also.

I, the LFS's and many customers and web folks have done this without issue.

I've seen a lot of issues with FC: dead fish, green water blooms, sick fish. I seek more natural safer methods.
So do most folks for that matter.

Try thinking beyond the first 3 weeks in this hobby and you may see more into the arguements presented. FC is not going to help folks later.
My advice on the other hand will.



Regards,
Tom Barr