Is this HITH with my German Ram? Huge white growth on head and tail!

[DanR]

Hi all,

One of the 4 GBRs in my daughter's tank is in very bad shape. It started 5 days ago and I thought he had Ich - it started with a white spot on his tail. I immediately increased aquarium tank temperature to 80 and started the treatment and removed the charcoal. It didn't clear up and got worse, with a little red pimple showing up on his head and the white on the tail getting bigger. Today is water change and it has now exploded in to a white mass on his head!

I have no experience with this, is this what is called hole in the head? I have no idea what I need to do. And to make matters worse, another Ram now has a white dot near the back of his dorsal fin.

I made a video here (sorry just getting over a cold):

Thanks in advance,
Dan

 

[Autumnsky]

What are the numbers for the water test/parameters???

It seems more like Columnaris. But the pimple does sound like possible HITH starting but also possible there could be double trouble.

Does it seem like there are little black dots/pimples on the lower area or around the sides of the head of the bad one or one just starting to get it?

Kanamycin (treats internal infection) and Furan -2 External infection for the Columnaris.

 

[DanR]

What are the numbers for the water test/parameters???

It seems more like Columnaris. But the pimple does sound like possible HITH starting but also possible there could be double trouble.

Does it seem like there are little black dots/pimples on the lower area or around the sides of the head of the bad one or one just starting to get it?

Kanamycin (treats internal infection) and Furan -2 External infection for the Columnaris.

I haven't had a chance to run the tests for water params, I have to water change tonight and test. There are no black pimples or dots on the lower area or around the sides of the head of the fish with the infection or any of the others.

What's really infuriating about Canada is that none of these easy to get drugs you have access to can be bought here without prescriptions. And no vet will give me a prescription for a fish unless I go to an exotic vet, pay $150 for a consult and maybe get a prescription. Only thing I have access to are cure-alls and things like that at the pet store. I went to the Pharmacist earlier today to try and buy Metronidazole and was told I need a prescription for any kind of antibiotic product.

Are the 2 products you mentioned antibiotics of some kind? If so I will not be able to get them unless someone in the US buys and ships them to me lol

Dan

 

[coralbandit]

That is NOT columnaris..Both meds listed are antibiotics..
It is fuzzy hence a fungal issue..
Look for fungus treatments...Ithink you will be looking for dye based like M green ,acriflavin.possibly even methylene blue..
Many pet staores even in Canada carry fungal meds.
Good luck.

 

[Autumnsky]

That is NOT columnaris..Both meds listed are antibiotics..
It is fuzzy hence a fungal issue..
Look for fungus treatments...Ithink you will be looking for dye based like M green ,acriflavin.possibly even methylene blue..
Many pet staores even in Canada carry fungal meds.
Good luck.

If anyone knows it is coralbandit, he's the expert. Hope you find the right medication and you get the fish well again.

 

[DanR]

That is NOT columnaris..Both meds listed are antibiotics..
It is fuzzy hence a fungal issue..
Look for fungus treatments...Ithink you will be looking for dye based like M green ,acriflavin.possibly even methylene blue..
Many pet staores even in Canada carry fungal meds.
Good luck.

Thank you very much! I will go first thing this morning to get the meds!

 

[Delapool]

Well, will happily defer to CB.

I'm wondering if you may be unlucky and have both there. Imo still keep investigating a source of antibiotics and keep an eye out for any more red pimples and if the infection is jumping fish.

On a side note, it caught my eye on the lack of meds (rare to find somewhere tighter than Australia for this!). Can you get anything at all? I mention because it's worth tracking down a source, if not now and hopefully never, but just in case. Some cichlid shops here will carry a better meds range. Terrible labelling (perhaps for a reason) but the shop will know.

Antibiotics here are triple sulpha (ok) and tetracycline (not great ime). Annoyingly New Zealand next door has Furan 2.

Metro I don't think is available here but I think one store carries a variation on it. Starts with D, will have to look it up. Anyways, I'd check out out specialty shops when you are shop browsing.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitroimidazole

 

[coralbandit]

Antibiotics are not legal in Canada period without prescription...
If you still think after treating for fungus you have a bacterial issue[columnaris] then I would look into potassium permanganate. If you are need of some type of internal wormer go to places like 'tractor supply' for dog de wormers and such..You may be able to find your anti parasite meds this way..

 

[DanR]

Thanks again everyone for your help. Here are a couple of images of everything available at a local store that probably has the best aquarium supplies in terms of medications:





Based on the recommendation of looking for something for fungus and the store owner's advice that I don't go too harsh as it can deeply impact a small community tank, I went with Pimafix. Hopefully I made the right decision. i will start treatment tonight.

Thanks,
Dan

 

[coralbandit]

Based on the recommendation of looking for something for fungus and the store owner's advice that I don't go too harsh as it can deeply impact a small community tank, I went with Pimafix. Hopefully I made the right decision. i will start treatment tonight.

Thanks,
Dan

Good luck with that ! ALL THE FIXES ARE WORTHLESS ! The Bactine of meds to used on scrapes and boo boos by nervous mothers of toddlers.....
It will not cure what your fish have ..
DYE BASED MEDS.. If the med don't kill stuff then the med will not kill the infection..You are not adding something to make water better,you are looking for a medical cure for fungus... You need to KILL IT ,and maybe some good bacteria too.The stronger the infection gets [over time] the stronger the dose needed will be..
Poor rams.The tank should be 82 MINIMUM EVERY DAY for them..That could be why they are struggling,and now they get bactine for their boo boo...
They will not wait for the right conditions to arrive much longer IMO....
Sorry man.They are not beginner fish..
These are beginner mistakes that almost any other fish may have tolerated...

 

[DanR]

Good luck with that ! ALL THE FIXES ARE WORTHLESS ! The Bactine of meds to used on scrapes and boo boos by nervous mothers of toddlers.....
It will not cure what your fish have ..
DYE BASED MEDS.. If the med don't kill stuff then the med will not kill the infection..You are not adding something to make water better,you are looking for a medical cure for fungus... You need to KILL IT ,and maybe some good bacteria too.The stronger the infection gets [over time] the stronger the dose needed will be..
Poor rams.The tank should be 82 MINIMUM EVERY DAY for them..That could be why they are struggling,and now they get bactine for their boo boo...
They will not wait for the right conditions to arrive much longer IMO....
Sorry man.They are not beginner fish..
These are beginner mistakes that almost any other fish may have tolerated...

I've had bolivian and gold rams in my main tank for 2 years and haven't had an issue, these are newly purchased a few weeks ago and are quarantined fish that were trouble free up until 5 days ago.

Second photo has dye based meds but the guy at the store said those are very weak and would likely do nothing. In the first photo there's a box of powder meds the API Fungus Cure, is that any better?

Unfortunately this is all that is available in Canada/Quebec and ordering it out of Canada/importing it is illegal. If it's not in either of the two photos, I can't do much.

Not sure why you're going off on me, I did my research and all info on GBR does not state your temps at all. My water is kept at 27C, which is 80.6F. I couldn't edit my original post, but the water temp was increased to 29C for the ich treatment, which is 86F, not 80F.

Tropical Freshwater Aquarium Fish: Ram

German Blue Ram

https://www.fishlore.com/aquariummagazine/dec07/blue-ram-cichlid.htm

Every single resource I've found states my temps are in the ideal range of between 80 and 81. Further, I've never lost a Ram since keeping them and I have 3 varieties of them. I'm new to dealing with this disease.

I appreciate your help.

Dan

 

[Delapool]

Thanks again everyone for your help. Here are a couple of images of everything available at a local store that probably has the best aquarium supplies in terms of medications:





Based on the recommendation of looking for something for fungus and the store owner's advice that I don't go too harsh as it can deeply impact a small community tank, I went with Pimafix. Hopefully I made the right decision. i will start treatment tonight.

Thanks,
Dan

I can see on the top line - API furan 2, triple sulpha, etc??

 

[Delapool]

As usual I had to look up the meds so have included the ingredients for the fungus cure I found here.


Bacteria & Fungus Medications: Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Pro Series Fungus Cure


Have you started treatment with the Pimafix?


For information - threads should be editable for 6hrs, after that you can PM a mod or post a correction.


I would trust CB with my tank cutting through everything.


Do you have a hospital tank?


Both the pimafix and a like product I have cured fungal (also had MB dye). Both ime will treat fungal ok and a fish that is a bit off (really early infection). After that, not so great.

 

[DanR]

I can see on the top line - API furan 2, triple sulpha, etc??

Yes, I was surprised to see those actually, they were not available last year when I was putting together a little emergency kit. But I am following (trying) CB's advice and I don't believe they are for fungal. I didn't ask but I remember reading on here that you can't dose with 2 medications at the same time, you have to try one at a time.

I posted the photos hoping from there someone could tell me which of those to go with. It's a wee bit overwhelming, the more I read the labels the harder it was to figure out what I needed.

In other news, the white patch on the tail has diminished considerably, but the white fuzz on his head appears to be growing. The other GBR with the white spot on the dorsal has not changed and I think I see 2 very pale spots on a third on his tail but it's hard to tell.

I'm off to bed, I'm exhausted and just getting frustrated with this. We'll get a fresh look in the morning now that water change is done is the new medication is in there, although from CB's input it's worthless.

Thanks,
Dan

 

[DanR]

As usual I had to look up the meds so have included the ingredients for the fungus cure I found here.


Bacteria & Fungus Medications: Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Pro Series Fungus Cure


Have you started treatment with the Pimafix?


For information - threads should be editable for 6hrs, after that you can PM a mod or post a correction.


I would trust CB with my tank cutting through everything.


Do you have a hospital tank?


Both the pimafix and a like product I have cured fungal (also had MB dye). Both ime will treat fungal ok and a fish that is a bit off (really early infection). After that, not so great.

Sorry I went to grab a quick shower before bed. I did a 25% water change and started giving the Pimafix tonight.

Yes I do have a spare 10 gallon I can take out, but I was concerned about needing to treat the entire tank. If you think I can safely isolate just the ones with visual signs, I can do that tomorrow for sure. Would you recommend I use my primary display tank and the water/media donor?

Thanks again for taking the time to help me out, I'm off to get some sleep before the hamster wheel (work) starts up again in the morning

Thanks for the tip about editing - I figured there was a time delay that I had missed out on.

Dan

 

[Delapool]

Below are some links on meds, etc to get you started.

Aquarium Medications and Treatments | How they work & Use

Tropical Fish Disease Identification with pictures and cures.

Chart on Fish Diseases, Symptoms and their Treatments

https://www.theaquariumwiki.com/Pimafix

My experience has been fungal will decline fairly quickly. Good improvement within a day or two. I would rank Pimafix/melafix relatively low in effectiveness then the acriflavin / malachite green / methylene blue then potassium permanganate / antibiotics. And a water test kit / water changes for clean water always help (can make a huge difference just by themselves). Some people report pimafix is great (before I get shot down) so this is ime how I rank each med relatively. And each med has its dangers.

Of course what I find works may not work for your tank chemistry and it's not like I'm dosing meds every other day. Pimafix or melafix I use as a first try as it is cheap here, plants are ok with it (I have very expensive plants), Australian meds are dismal and I find some success on early treatment with it.

I would dig out the hospital tank. If the worse fish starts recovering - great news. If not and the fish is looking doubtful, into the hospital tank. It's kind of a judgment call in my case - I may treat the main tank still but really concentrate on the hospital tank. And if that fish dies, it's not spreading anything. Some thoughts.

Hope your cold is improving.

 

[DanR]

Below are some links on meds, etc to get you started.

Aquarium Medications and Treatments | How they work & Use

Tropical Fish Disease Identification with pictures and cures.

Chart on Fish Diseases, Symptoms and their Treatments

https://www.theaquariumwiki.com/Pimafix

My experience has been fungal will decline fairly quickly. Good improvement within a day or two. I would rank Pimafix/melafix relatively low in effectiveness then the acriflavin / malachite green / methylene blue then potassium permanganate / antibiotics. And a water test kit / water changes for clean water always help (can make a huge difference just by themselves). Some people report pimafix is great (before I get shot down) so this is ime how I rank each med relatively. And each med has its dangers.

Of course what I find works may not work for your tank chemistry and it's not like I'm dosing meds every other day. Pimafix or melafix I use as a first try as it is cheap here, plants are ok with it (I have very expensive plants), Australian meds are dismal and I find some success on early treatment with it.

I would dig out the hospital tank. If the worse fish starts recovering - great news. If not and the fish is looking doubtful, into the hospital tank. It's kind of a judgment call in my case - I may treat the main tank still but really concentrate on the hospital tank. And if that fish dies, it's not spreading anything. Some thoughts.

Hope your cold is improving.

Good evening DP

Oh definitely, cold is just about gone finally. The late spring/summer colds are a real bear sometimes.

I got out the hospital tank this morning before I had to leave for work and got home to get it going but it was too late, the GBR had passed away during the day. When I saw this morning, he was pale as a sheet so I figured it was not a good sign. I am going to continue dosing the tank for the full 7 days because as I mentioned there is one with a tiny white spot at the base/back of the dorsal fin and another has 2 very faint white spots in the dorsal fin and these appeared after the Ich treatment. The temp is still at 28/29C and will leave it at that while I treat the tank.

Thank you very much for the links and reading material, I will start looking that over tonight and over the coming days. Really appreciate the information. Right now I am trying to formulate a battle plan if the dots do not go away with the fungal treatment. I'll also try to get some better pics.

Hope all is well on your end and thanks again for everything

Dan

 

[Delapool]

Sad news


With the hospital tank I would pinch media from the main tank if you can (if used). Some feel this isn't needed as the meds will kill of the good bacteria anyways. In my tank the media has been running a long time and the bacteria is fairly hardy, therefore I would pinch media in the hope that it can at least process some ammonia (else something like prime is needed to detoxify it). To me it would make sense to use the same tank water so you can transfer more easily - depends on the issue, a balance between not stressing the fish vs. clean, uncontaminated water / difference in water chemistry. What I have found is unstable hospital tank doesn't help so water test kits are a must imo. So if clean tap water is used, I would have it up and running for 24hrs to allow ph, etc here to settle.


I can't remember if you had water test results or not. But there must be some trigger for an infection as well. So to add to the stress, not only is a treatment plan needed but a what-caused-it think is needed as well unfortunately. Not saying it's the water or anything but if you know the cause, can help. Here I will avoid buying fish at summer peak now as they just seem stressed more easily.

 

[DanR]

Sad news


With the hospital tank I would pinch media from the main tank if you can (if used). Some feel this isn't needed as the meds will kill of the good bacteria anyways. In my tank the media has been running a long time and the bacteria is fairly hardy, therefore I would pinch media in the hope that it can at least process some ammonia (else something like prime is needed to detoxify it). To me it would make sense to use the same tank water so you can transfer more easily - depends on the issue, a balance between not stressing the fish vs. clean, uncontaminated water / difference in water chemistry. What I have found is unstable hospital tank doesn't help so water test kits are a must imo. So if clean tap water is used, I would have it up and running for 24hrs to allow ph, etc here to settle.


I can't remember if you had water test results or not. But there must be some trigger for an infection as well. So to add to the stress, not only is a treatment plan needed but a what-caused-it think is needed as well unfortunately. Not saying it's the water or anything but if you know the cause, can help. Here I will avoid buying fish at summer peak now as they just seem stressed more easily.

It would appear at this point I am going to lose the entire aquarium... I am done treating with the pimafix and just did a 35% water change and I've put the charcoal back in. At this point I have lost the GBR but the small spots on the others is not diminishing. What's worse is that healthy fish are suddenly dying with no signs of infection. A bulldog pleco, a Denison barb, and a black neon have all died - fish that were healthy in the evening and were found dead the in the morning on different days.

I'm going to run my water parameters now and redo them tomorrow night and see where they lay. I have a feeling the ammonia spiked in the tank and it's turning in to a disaster. Going to stabilize the tank and try to figure out what this ich looking stuff is that is not responding to ich treatment.

Really frustrating... this is the first time in 2 years I had to deal with anything other than an ich episode and it's decimating the tank. THANK GOODNESS this is not my main display tank *knocks on wood*

Dan

 

[DanR]

Here are my parameters as of now:

Temp: 82F
PH: 7.3
AMM: 0.25
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: 5

Dan