Lesions left behind on Goldfish after treatment

[Phrozian]

1~What type of fish is afflicted? In addition, please describe what is wrong with the fish to the best of your ability (i.e. cotton like growth, bloated, etc.).

Currently, lesions that are purely white, or with slight redness surrounding.

2~What are your tank parameters (ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, temp, pH)? Please give exact values.

Ammonia: 0.5 ppm
pH: 7.6
Nitrite: 0.25 ppm
Temperature: 21 degrees C
GH: 179 ppm
KH: 72 ppm

3~ How large is the tank? How long has the tank been set up?

The tank is 22L, approx 5 gallons. The tank has been up for 4 weeks.

4~What type of filtration are you using? Please give the name and number (i.e. Fluval 304) and amount of gph if known.

Elite Hush 5. 60 GPH

5~How many fish are in the tank? What kinds of fish are they and what are their current sizes?

4 goldfishes in total (1 Common, 1 Fantail, 2 comets). All fishes are less than 2 inches long.

6~When is the last time you did a water change and vacuum the gravel?
How often do you do this? How much water do you remove at a time?

Last water change + vacuum: 2 days ago.
I do this at least once a week, but recently, once every 3 days with medication. I remove about 1/2 the water each time.

7~How long have you had the fish? If the fish is new, how did you acclimate it/them?

I received the fishes as gift 5 weeks ago. 4 fishes in a 5 L tank. They were stressed, and moved them into a newly purchased 22L tank 4 weeks ago.

8~Have you added anything new to the tank--decor, new dechlorinator, new substrate, etc.?

I haven't added anything new to the tank while they were in there. Everything in the tank now was in there before they were introduced into the tank.

9~What kind of food have you been feeding your fish, have you changed their diet recently?

I have been feeding them fish flakes since the beginning. Their diet has not changed.

I keep a brief diary of what I do to them and how they behave... I'll summarize below:

The fantail initially presented with white pimple like papules on its fins, which I initially thought was ich. Treated it with ich medication for one week, raised temperature to 26 degrees C as part of treatment. However, the white pimples grew in size, and became fluffy. Then red lesions with white centres started appearing in all 4 fishes. Realizing I misdiagnosed, I changed water 3 times over 3 days and lowered temperature to remove the ich medication. I then started them on Tri-sulpha tablets as recommendation from a local pet store. The redness disappeared around the lesions, so did the white growth. However, the lesions have more or less been unchanged in the last week, no observable healing or worsening is observed... I have attached a photo of the worst-afflicted fish... Please help

Many, many thanks,
Alex.

 

[mfdrookie516]

honestly, i think it looks like some type of fungus maybe? Two things that really catch my attention are that you have 4 goldifsh in a 5 gallon tank, and your ammonia and nitrites are pretty high. IMO you would be overstocked in a 20g tank. Goldfish are notoriously "filthy" fish, they require much larger tanks than people think. "common" or comet goldfish will get a foot long easily. Before the fish will get better, they need a bigger tank so theyre not stressed out, and you can keep the water parameters in much better condition... jmo

 

[Phrozian]

Yeah, I agree with the fish tank size, but I got them as a gift and I asked my pet store owner that I need 4 litres per gold fish, and thus, I got a 22 L one thinking it was enough... I don't have enough room at home to get a 20 gallon (100 litres +) tank... nor do i have the money to do so =( Nevertheless, I check my water every time I change it, I can never get it down to below 0.25 ppm on both ammonia and nitrite...

 

[mfdrookie516]

thats because the tank cant handle the bioload that the goldfish are putting in the tank. Basically, they poop too much for the bacteria to break down, thus the high levels of ammonia. It could also be that the tank hasnt cycled yet, which brings up a whole new conversation. IMO, you wont have any success until you get a bigger tank. Store employees are notorious for giving wrong info. They follow the 1" per gallon rule, that is complete nonsense. Even if you used that rule, you would be overstocked, but for goldfish, its more like 1" per 5 gallons or so... honestly, i would either upgrade tanks, or keep the one you have and get some smaler fish like danios or guppies or something along those lines

 

[Phrozian]

That means I either have to get an even bigger tank... or face losing all my fishes?

 

[mfdrookie516]

well, i would get a bigger tank if you like goldfish... im sure somebody else will chime in, i dont want to be the one responsible for you buying a new tank, or exchanging those fish for something else, but youre going to have to so something to avoid having those die imo. Dont get discouraged though, i was in the same situation when i first started. I had 32 goldfish in a 55g tank, i lost a few, but luckily i found this site before i let my goldfish suffer. Needless to say, i ended up having 9 tanks shortly after that, and have recently got down to 3, with a possible 4th coming lol.

 

[Phrozian]

I am freaking out now lol... I've already grown so attached to them, although only 4 weeks... and I don't have money to spare for an even larger tank
I certainly hope that I can find some way to keep them as they are....

 

[mfdrookie516]

well, have you checked your local craigslist? ive got all my tanks from there, super cheap. If you really want to keep those, id suggest doing that.

 

[Sonomakid]

would check cl too... else your gonna be out some fish do to the overstocking issues.. as for the other issue i have never seen anything like that.. maybe someone else can chime in

 

[Phrozian]

Umm.. I'm from Australia and most of my pet shops have their priorities on cats and dogs. I've only found one pet shop so far that has more than 10 aquariums on display, and it was them that told me the 4 litres (1 gallon) per goldfish rule :S
I would really hate to have to give up on any of my fishes... Nor do I have the space and money at the moment to afford a bigger tank............ *cries*

 

[spoonman]

If the tank is cycling and the ammonia got high, it could be ammonia burn. I would be really diligent with the water changes...That is your best defense right now.

 

[Phrozian]

I've been doing water changes every two days and keeping the ammonia level below 0.25ppm regularly... The reason this is happening is that I believe my medication treatment (sulfa tablets) have killed some of my bacteria in the tank, and they aren't converting the ammonia anymore...

 

[jsoong]

That is a body ulcer on the pic, prob secondary to ammonia burn.

It is pretty difficult to maintain proper water conditions in a 5 gal tank with 4 goldfish. The most you should have is 2 of the fantails, and that is only if you are willing to do lots of pwc's. With 4, you are just not able to keep up with the water changes to get the levels down.

I would certainly suggest you give away/return the comet. That fish is going to get to 12" if it survives, he is going to be bigger than your tank & should really be in a pond. <I don't think you should keep comets in anything less than 100 gal/400 l.>

For now, what I would suggest:
1. Maintain perfect water conditions by doing more water changes - up to 100% when dealing with sick fish. You need to match water temp & parameters. I suggest you have a 2nd bucket so you can age & prepare your water ahead of time with these big pwc's. <To do 100% change, you would remove the fish - preferable in a container (no net) so the fish is never out of the water - to your bucket of clean water. Then dump out everything in the old tank, refill & return the fish. This is stressful to fish, see if you can get by with 60-70% changes, or twice daily changes.>
2. Add salt - at ~0.1% (= 1g/l or 22 g in your 22 l tank ~ 4 teaspoons). You will need to replace the salt with each water change - ie if you prepare 20 l of water in your change bucket, you will need to add 20g of salt to it. The salt will prevent nitrite poisoning, and also help keep the body ulcer from getting infected.
3. I would stay away from antibiotics for now - you need to get your biofilter established. Antibiotics in water don't work well for golds, and won't help if the water conditions are bad. <If you see the ulcer getting infected, you can treat topically (put some neosporine or betadine ointment on the wound) or use food with antibiotics.>
4. Once you get the tank cycled, you would still need to do big water changes- prob daily 50% - regardless of water parameters. Meanwhile, look for a friend with a pond or look for a big tank. You will need to rehome those fish within a year at the most, even under optimal conditions.

 

[Phrozian]

Hi Jsoong,

Thanks so much for your prompt reply!
I always have 2 25L buckets of water sitting underneath the tank for ageing...
I am really attached to them, and would absolutely hate to give them away...
I'll find a way to get another tank for them, a bigger one for sure...
But for now, I will do more frequent water changes to keep the ammonia down.

Also... What could I use to treat the ulcers on the fishes? What about something like Melafix etc?

 

[Phrozian]

I just performed a 70% water change, with new water that has conditioner and sea salt. I've also replenished a bit of the cycle bacteria into the tank. My fishes look SO much happier, they are swimming around a lot more and exploring the tank again.
Also, I rechecked the water quality after water change... here are the stats:

Before:
Ammonia: 0.5ppm
NitrIte: 0.5ppm

After:
Ammonia: 0.5ppm
NitrIte: ~0 ppm (Kinda less than 0.25, but not exactly 0)

I was shocked to see ammonia levels not dropping... So I tested my city water supply... and low and behold, the ammonia reading was 0.5ppm as well... So what should I do? Should I add amquel or prime to the ageing water before I change water next time?

 

[spoonman]

I would just keep up with the water changes. Good clean water will help the fish to heal. Also add the prime to the water changes. You should add the prime for the capacity of the tank each time you do a water change. And get a bigger tank as soon as you can. You will wear yourself out with this eventually and its a losing battle.

 

[jsoong]

Good that the fish is looking better with water changes! Keep it up. Clean water will cure many ills ....

What test kit are you using? City water usu. has chloramines as a disinfectant. This is broken down to Chlorine & ammonia. The ammonia is normally not a problem in a cycled tank, and most dechlorinators can bind the small amount of NH3. If you have a Nessler ammonia test, you will still read the bound ammonia as positive. A salicylate kit (SW ammonia, 2 reagents) will give you an accurate reading of the free ammonia.

When doing big water changes in uncycled setup. You definitely need a good dechlorinator. Prime is a good one, since it is concentrated & will last a long time. <Doing big pwc can use up "normal" dechlor in a hurry!> But if you already have a good one, you can keep using it. <0.5 of chloramine is not too much to need a specialized binder.>

As for what else to add for the ulcer, I think salt is as good as Malafix. Personally, salt is all I would use. If the ulcer starts getting infected <pus, dirty looking, getting bigger/deeper, redness> I would feed the fish an antibiotic containing food. <Far more effective & won't kill your bio-filter.>

 

[Phrozian]

Dear Jsoong,

Thank you so much for your kind advice They are looking better and better already by the minute. They swim around looking for food and generally looking relaxed

I use a salicylate kit, 2 reagents. Unfortunately my initial anti-biotic treatment seems to have disrupted the biofilter, as my ammonia levels are still high, but my nitrIte levels are relatively low... I think I might have to start the cycle again with fish in it this time?

Another question though, I noticed that my fantail keeps nibbling on the lesions on both my comet and common... Is that a sign of hunger? Once I've fed them, they seem to have stopped... at least in the last 10 minutes or so... Should I be worried? I've already isolated another comet from the main tank to a small 1 gallon tank temporarily as he was responsible for the initial injuries my other goldfishes sustained...

 

[kellyinvancouver]

Another thing you could do as a desperate measure is house the temporarily in a large rubbermaid tub or even the bathtub! You obviously won't be needing a heater and with a rubbermaid tub you can at least purchase a filter that you can move to a bigger tank when you can afford one.

 

[MichaelsLilGray]

1~What type of fish is afflicted? In addition, please describe what is wrong with the fish to the best of your ability (i.e. cotton like growth, bloated, etc.).

Currently, lesions that are purely white, or with slight redness surrounding.

2~What are your tank parameters (ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, temp, pH)? Please give exact values.

Ammonia: 0.5 ppm (problem number 1... should be 0)
pH: 7.6
Nitrite: 0.25 ppm (problem number 2... should be 0)
Temperature: 21 degrees C
GH: 179 ppm
KH: 72 ppm

3~ How large is the tank? How long has the tank been set up?

The tank is 22L, approx 5 gallons. (problem number 3... should be 10g per goldfish) The tank has been up for 4 weeks. (problem number 4... should be just cycled at 4 weeks.. no fish should have been added yet)

4~What type of filtration are you using? Please give the name and number (i.e. Fluval 304) and amount of gph if known.

Elite Hush 5. 60 GPH (problem number 5... To low filtration for a goldfish..)

5~How many fish are in the tank? What kinds of fish are they and what are their current sizes?

4 goldfishes in total (1 Common, 1 Fantail, 2 comets). All fishes are less than 2 inches long. (problem number 6... to many fish.. specially the 2 comets)

6~When is the last time you did a water change and vacuum the gravel?
How often do you do this? How much water do you remove at a time?

Last water change + vacuum: 2 days ago.
I do this at least once a week, but recently, once every 3 days with medication. I remove about 1/2 the water each time.

7~How long have you had the fish? If the fish is new, how did you acclimate it/them?

I received the fishes as gift 5 weeks ago. 4 fishes in a 5 L tank. They were stressed, and moved them into a newly purchased 22L tank 4 weeks ago.

8~Have you added anything new to the tank--decor, new dechlorinator, new substrate, etc.?

I haven't added anything new to the tank while they were in there. Everything in the tank now was in there before they were introduced into the tank.

9~What kind of food have you been feeding your fish, have you changed their diet recently?

I have been feeding them fish flakes since the beginning. Their diet has not changed. (problem number 7... Goldfish have... goldfish food.. make sure its not tropical flakes...)

I keep a brief diary of what I do to them and how they behave... I'll summarize below:

The fantail initially presented with white pimple like papules on its fins, which I initially thought was ich. Treated it with ich medication for one week, raised temperature to 26 degrees C as part of treatment (problem number 8... Goldfish dont require the use of a heater 0_o). However, the white pimples grew in size, and became fluffy. (problem number 9... sounds more fungal) Then red lesions with white centres started appearing in all 4 fishes. Realizing I misdiagnosed, I changed water 3 times over 3 days and lowered temperature to remove the ich medication. I then started them on Tri-sulpha tablets as recommendation from a local pet store. The redness disappeared around the lesions, so did the white growth. (Solution number 1... Nothing beats pwc's)However, the lesions have more or less been unchanged in the last week, no observable healing or worsening is observed... I have attached a photo of the worst-afflicted fish... Please help

Many, many thanks,
Alex.

Hope all that helps.