Lesions left behind on Goldfish after treatment

[jsoong]

So sorry to hear about your loss. You can rest easy knowing that you had done your utmost to try to save him. I am glad that he passed without suffering.

 

[Phrozian]

Hi all,

I've picked up the pieces and am ready to focus on my other fishies.
Phrilly, now the most afflicted fish with lesion, is doing okay... However, his lesion is not decreasing in size at all. I suspect it actually increased slightly overnight, starting to reach over to the other side of him... Which is exactly what happened to Spot...
To give you an overview of what the tank conditions are like, including medications, here's the list:

Ammonia: <0.5ppm (Even pure, aged tap water has a ppm of 0.5)
Nitrite: ~0.5ppm
Nitrate: ~50ppm

Additives:
- Stress coat+
- Bactonex (Aminacrine Hydrochloride, Methylene Blue) <-- recommended by local aquarium
- Seasalt + acriflavine
- Melafix
- Small amounts of prime powder (recommended by local aquarium)

I feed them once a day, and ensured that they finish each flake or pellet before feeding them another one.

Any recommendation would be great appreciated, I'd hate to see my other fishies going down the same path as Spot did...

Many thanks,
Alex.

 

[Phrozian]

Another update...
I just did another water test and the results were surprising:
Ammonia: < 0.25ppm
Nitrite: < 0.5 ppm
Nitrate: 25 ppm

This is the lowest toxin level I've ever had since the beginning of my tank. I believe once Spot has left the main tank, his decaying injury no longer contributed to the toxic levels in the tank...

Nevertheless, I'm going to go out to buy some clove oil and triple-antibiotic cream tomorrow to treat Phrilly's ulcer. In the mean time, I need to find some good medicated food...

 

[jsoong]

The only thing out of line in those numbers is the NO3. I am surprised that it is so high, considering that you are doing daily water changes. Is there NO3 in the tap water also?

Can you read through this:
Hole in the Head by Adam Dagna of World Cichlids
See if that is applicable. HITH is possible in goldfish, I am just wondering if this si what started off the ulcer thing.

However, the first thing to do with HITH is still perfect water. You can't really do too much with the low level of NH3/NO2 ATM <Adding Prime is a good thing!>, but I wonder if bringing the NO3 down may help.

The other thing - nutritional support may be useful. You might want to introduce some live/fresh food into the diet. <Suggestions: cooked cocktail shrimps, veggies of all sorts, maybe some oranges or other fruit - someone said they love tomato puree.> Fresh food can't hurt, & the fish loves it. (Note these are people food - much cheaper than pet store fresh fish food, & easier to get ... plus you can just share your lunch with your fish!)

Anti-biotic food is still the mainstay of treatment for goldies ulcers. You did say you had triple sulfa powder in previous posts? Are you up to making your own antibiotic food? <The best antibiotic to use is metronidazole + kanamycin. But Sulfonamides would still be good, esp. when combined with metronidazole. - I use Jungles' antibacterial food with its antiparasite food in difficult cases like this, which contains triple sulfa, metronidazole and Praziquental. the 3 would cover most common bacteria & parasite infections. I didn't go for kanamycin because my lfs only sells MediGold in 1 lb sacks for ponds.>

 

[Phrozian]

Hi Jsoong,

I've had a look at HITH before about it, considering the aggressiveness of the ulcer, I was covering all my bases and educating myself a bit on everything... However, from the looks of it, the onset of the ulcer was definitely set off by initial injury from bullying, followed by secondary infection from fungus and bacteria...

I'm still searching (in vain) for medicated food in Australia, Jungles' antibacterial food sounds familiar, I may have come across them before... I'll definitely try and find them, in the mean time, I'll make my own medicated food with the tri-sulfa tablets using your recipe. I was wondering what kind of dosage should I be using? Would I be using the same dose as I would in tank water, when mixed with the gelatin?
Unfortunately Kanamycin is not available in Australia... I've searched in vain for that too...

The other thing about fresh food, it would be best if they are boiled hey? Are there any classes of food they don't eat?

Many, many thanks
Alex.

 

[jsoong]

Oranges can be served raw. Veggies are blanched & chopped. Shrimps I just chop up (already cooked). Gold fish will eat anything ... but it is best to stick mostly with veggies & a little fish/shrimp. People have reported problems with meats from mammals or birds - so I guess no chicken or steak.

Unfortunately, there is no dosage on antibiotics for fish. <It is all based on weight of the fish anyhow.> My Jungle anti-bacterial food has 2.3% sulfa. If you were to make a similar % with the sulfa, you would use about 250mg of the med in 10 g of food. <I don't have the packets of API's triple sulfa for reference, but I think it is ~1/4 teaspoon or ~1-1.5g per packet.>

 

[Phrozian]

Hi Jsoong,

I found a website online in US that ships to Australia. I basically bought all the medication on it that's not available in Australia... Including kanaplex, maracyn etc. I even bought Jungle's anti-bacterial food. Since I'm unsure about the concentration on my triple-sulfa pills, I dare not to make my own medicated food that way...
Nevertheless, with UPS, it should arrive in 3-5 days. I'm doing daily water changes now to keep the tank clean, so hopefully that will slow down the ulcer... I'll also clean his wound every day as well, with a Q-tip dipped in Betadine

 

[Phrozian]

Hi all,

I just performed my first topical clean of Phrilly's ulcer. His ulcer looks very smooth actually, and it's showing some signs of regrowth too!
Nevertheless, I used clove oil to sedate him, and cleaned his ulcer using betadine, then followed by betadine cream. However, the cream seems to have dislodged after about 10 minutes of him swimming in his tank again... Is it because I didn't dry the wound well enough?
Also, what is denture adhesive powder? Where can i get that?

 

[jsoong]

Alex, you are fast becoming a goldies expert! In addition to managing water parameters in a small tank, you have now practical experience in goldfish anesthesia & wound care!

I am glad that the ulcer is looking better. Your care certainly contributed.

As for topical treatment. It would be expected that any thing put on the fish would fall off sooner or later. <The fish's slime coat will see to that.> A cream, if water based will fall off sooner. Ointments, being petroleum based, might stay longer. However, even if visible ointment falls off, there would still be some agents dissolved into the slime coat, helping the fish. So I wouldn't stress too much. The cleaning of the dead tissue is actually the most important part of the procedure.

As to denture adhesive powder, I assume you read somewhere that this is used to stick things onto the fish? I have not come across that, so I don't know what to make of it. This is the old style stuff that people used to make denture paste to keep the teeth in. I would expect to find it in a drug store if it is still available. <On TV, we see only ads for denture adhesive creams ... never powders.>

I am not sure of the merits of using an occlusive dressing on a fish's wound (as a denture adhesive paste would be). The debate in people's wound had gone back & forth a bit. The current thinking is still for allowing a wound to drain to prevent abscesses. There is a bit of a comeback for various occlusive dressing techniques. However, these needed to be applied in the OR under sterile conditions. Doing that in an unsterile manner I think might be counter-productive. <And if I understand fish physiology correctly, the slime coat is non-occlusive, unlike our skin, and is constantly sloughing off to prevent infection. So I am leaning away from an occlusive dressing for them ... barring evidence to the contrary of course.>

 

[Phrozian]

Hi Jsoong,

I was able to do all that because of you and everyone else here on this forum. My deepest gratitude to all of you, you've all been absolutely amazing!

Phrilly is already showing signs of accelerated growth in his scales after the clean last night, the ulcer shrunk by about 1mm in diameter already!
Now, is it just me... or do goldfishes actually become more attached to you after you've handled them? I've noticed that, after the sedation and ulcer cleaning procedure, he no longer seems to be afraid of me, but rather, he waits for me and comes towards the glass whenever I'm nearby Maybe it's just a figment of my imagination

It's comforting to know that the cream would dissolve slightly in their slime coating, and the fact that the cream came off, means that he is actually producing a decent slime coating. I'm really glad

With regards to the denture powder, I read it from thegab.org, but I agree with your analysis, applying such a powder may not be directly beneficial at the very least, which was why I'm reluctant in using it. I'm going to continue looking after his ulcer, cleaning it when necessary, and keeping the tank water clean. At the current rate, he should recover within 2 weeks

Also, would I still need to feed him Jungle's antibacterial medicated food? Considering he's actually showing signs of healing?

Again, many thanks to you Jsoong, and many others in this forum. Hopefully from this post on, it will be all updates of good news from my end

Alex.

 

[SHARPiE]

Brilliant thread -
Good to see people care about goldfish too!!

I had a fancy goldfish that had dropsey, he was bloated as. I tried so many different treatments after two weeks it got to the point of looking for humaine euthanasia options... He hadn't pooped in days.

One of the people in the office through it would be beneificial to give him a salt bath... (table salt with iodine) All the tips of his bloated scales went black. Poor fella was burnt all over.

My last option was to give him some epsom salt baths - once a day for a few hours at a time. Within the first 15 mins of the epsom salt bath he had done a thick black poop.

The swelling has subsided, his scales are back to normal (even the black burns have gone!)
He is now doing better than ever! And loves human interaction.


Keep on keeping on!
They will love you for it.

Nice work Phrozian.

 

[Phrozian]

Hi Sharpie

Thanks so much for your encouragement I couldn't help it, I fell in love with my fishies the moment I saw them. I hope they will love me back

It's always comforting to know that there are other fishies that are so loved and cared for Your fishies are lucky to have an owner like you

Good news, my tank is beginning to cycle again, the ammonia and nitrite (even after feeding, and after 2 days of no water change) is only at 0.25. Phrilly is definitely getting better, his ulcer has shrunk further! Their appetite is back, and is always swimming around me when I come in to look at them

My order of Jungle's anti-bacterial medicated food is about to arrive, I was wondering if it would still be a good idea to feed it to them?

Thanks a lot

 

[SHARPiE]

Not sure about the medication Phrozian -

I use Stress Zyme (live bacteria) to cycle my tanks - its really good stuff IME. People often use it to maintain a healthy tank by adding weekly or with water changes.

Before you go and use Stress Zyme though - Can someone advise if it is safe to use this (live bacteria) with sick fish?

 

[Phrozian]

Well with my experience, I use Nutrafin Cycle, and since the beginning, I've killed my cycle bacteria with a tri-sulfa treatment. What I have done, was to change my water every two days, and along with it, a double dose of the bacteria. Now my tank is showing good signs of cycling within 2 weeks. It looks pretty promising and I believe it's compatible with sick fish... Otherwise Spot wouldn't be the only casualty *phew*

 

[jsoong]

No problem with adding the cycling bacteria with sick fish .... it helps keep the water clean. I always keep my hospital filter in my sump so it is loaded with bacteria so I can have a cycled setup for my hospital/QT tank/tub. <On a side note, most here reported that Cycle did not work, on account that the bacteria are usu. dead in the bottle after storage. However, if it is working for you, that is great!>

The use of the antibiotic is a judgment call. If he is doing well & the ulcer is healing, I would tend to hold off.

Good job on the fish so far! Hopefully it will be smooth sailing form now on.

And goldfish can certainly get attached to people. Mine come up to the water whenever I walk by. They will eat off my hand, and will always come by for a rub & a nibble whenever my hand is in the tank doing cleaning & such.

 

[Phrozian]

Hi All,

Just another quick update~
Phrilly and Oxy are doing very well, they are having very good appetite, and Phrily's lesion is almost completely gone, with new scales!
I've recently came across a fish tank in the office that has a 2 year old filter, with plenty of beneficial bacteria within it. I've popped two new polyester filter wool into the filter to culture some of the bacteria and it's been in for 2 weeks, how do I know when it would be ready for me to take back to my tank?

Another thing is, my tank parameters are starting to have nitrite levels higher than ammonia, considering I'm trying to cycle with fish within it, and I have salt at 1tbs / 5 gal, is that indicative of the second phase of cycling? Would introducing another tank's bacterial media be a good or bad idea? Also, do I need to worry about quarantining the bacterial media prior to addition to my tank?

Many thanks,
Alex.

 

[dkpate]

I think as long as you know there have been no diseases in the "old" tank, you should put some of that media in. I did that when I was in a hurry to cycle my 75G, and it didn't even really have a cycle, just went to the parameters it was supposed to.
REALLY glad to hear your fish are doing SO well! Good job!

 

[jsoong]

Excellent job on keeping the fish healthy! <It must be a ton of work doing all those water changes.> The nitrite coming up means you are at the second phase. You are about 1/3 of the way there! <Sorry, the 2nd phase usu. lasts twice as long as the first ...>

It is a GREAT idea to add bacteria from an established tank to kick start the cycle. As long as the donor tank is healthy, you can go ahead & use it. <You can't really QT the bacteria without using a fishless setup & adding ammonia to keep the bacteria alive.>

If you want to culture your own filter pads, the standard advice is to leave it in the donor tank for 4-6 weeks. However, we usually "cheat" by borrowing the old pad from the donor tank instead. The donor tank can be fine with 1/2 the filter material gone. <You would want to monitor the tank for a mini cycle if you take that much material.> To be conservative, you can take ~1/4 of the old filter pad from the donor tank & pop it in your tank. If that is not possible, you can take one of your 2 pads now. At 2 weeks, there should be some bacteria in there already & it won't hurt to transfer it now. <you can augment it by squeezing the old filter pad & get some of the gunk onto your own pad.> Be sure to keep the filter pad wet during transport. The bacteria should last a few hours in a tub of water so you can get it into your tank. <And if your 2 week old pad is not doing the trick, you can go back & take the other pad in 1 or 2 weeks.>

 

[Phrozian]

Hi all~

Thanks for the encouragements watching them swim around so lively is also making me feel lively
I wouldn't say the water changes were hard, I believe they deserve the best there is I can offer, and seriously, if I was a fish, I wouldn't want to live in toxic water anyway

I thought about using the original tank water from the office to transport the bacterial pads as well, so a few hours is okay? Also, although Australia doesn't sell ammonia commercially, I work in a chemistry lab and there are tonnes there... Do you reckon those are suitable for keeping the bacteria alive?

 

[jsoong]

Pure ammonia (USP 100% is what it should be labeled in N Am) would be a suitable source. But you don't really need to go to all that trouble if it is just a matter of an hour or two for transport. <And you can extend the time by refrigiration ... there is a commercial bacteria culture here that they ship refrigerated & supposed to be good for weeks.>

<FYI, if you were to feed the bacteria for extended period, you would want to dose to ~4 ppm. But an overdose will kill them also, so you want to be quite accurate in doing that.>