Newbie to plants

[Quake2player]

I posted this in Aqauriacentral's forum and no one responded... I figured I'd try here:

I have been successfully running this tank for about 6 years with plastic plants, no live plants. Just recently, I almost lost all of my fish due to an unknown cause and eventually did a 7 day treatment of Melafix and Primafix.... long story short, I added 8 new Neon tetras and a Blue RAM and they all seem to be thriving for the past 2 weeks, added some activated carbon to filter out what's left of the medicines. Here's the total stock right now:

29 Gallon long

11 Neon Tetras
3 Rosey Barbs
2 Skunk Cory Cats
1 Peppered Cory Cat
1 German Blue Ram
1 Singapore/Wood Shrimp
Fliters: Emperor single bio-wheel external AND undergravel Reverse-Flow.

On to my plant questions:
This past weekend I decided to buy some plants to offset the amount of algae that grows in my tank. My tanks are in the living room and plenty of light gets in... I have to clean algae at least once a month. From all my readings.... I figure some plants can "hinder" further growth of algae in the tank. I do not expect plants to totally stop the algae growth. I'm on the verge of buying this shopping list, but don't want to "overdo" it, nor do I want to "underdo" it. First, here's a list of the plants I just purchased:

(Bad me... I threw away the bags that had the labeled names of each, so this is as accurate as I can get)
1 Amazon Sword
2 small Vals
2 crypts
1 Penny "something"... I looked up pennywort, but what I have doesn't look like it.
couple of driftwood pieces

am about to buy:
- Flourish tabs
- Floursih iron ?
- Flourish Excel: perhaps this is a good substitute for NOT having a CO2 system?
- New light fixture, minimum 60+watt bulb? I currently have a single 25-30W fluorescent, haven't changed it in a few yrs. Should I get one of those dual-bulb jobs? Another thing confusing is that I'm not 100% sure about whether the new fixture would fit unless I limit my shopping to a LFS rather than online.

Reading about CO2 scares me as I don't want to overdo it and drastically mess with the PH levels. I certainly want the plants to thrive, but I also don't intend to win any aquaflorist contests.

- Can anyone make further recommendations to the shopping list? Comments??

- I have one of those 5 in 1 test strip kits that measure: ph, nitrite, nitrate, hardness, alkalinity (is that dh or gh?). Am I able to calculate CO2 levels from these measurements? I see this being discussed quite a lot, but haven't seen the formula. My levels are typically: ph on the low side, alkalinity low and soft is what I measure. I can provide actual measured amounts when I get home tonite.

- I had a bubble-bar and an airstone that I eventually turned off as I've read they help CO2 escape. Then I recall reading somewhere else that the air bubbles are beneficial to plants.... so I'm not 100% sure.

- My Emperor external filter does agitate the surface as it's like a mini watefall pouring out of it. Even keeping the water level high, I see small bubbles it creates on the surface. Am I seriosly depriving my plants of CO2 with this filter?

 

[malkore]

Lighting is the #1 ingredient plants need to survive and thrive. If you lack enough light, no amount of CO2 or fertilization can make up for it.

I suggest www.hellolights.com for light fixtures. however a 29gallon is 30" long, which is sort of an odd size because power compact bulbs go from 22.5" to 34".

If you can't find anything at hellolights that fits the bill (and I don't think they carry a 30" freshwater coralife fixture), you'll wanna look at www.ahsupply.com and get a kit instead. I personally have run 2 55watt power compacts over a 29...its' a ton of light and will demand consistently good CO2 levels, and almost daily fertilization.

You could also get a single 65 or 55watt bulb, but CO2 will still be desirable, and it will limit you on some plant selections. However as it stands right now the swords and valisneria have little chance of surviving.

For your CO2 questions...you only need to worry about outgassing CO2 if you're injecting it. If you're not injecting, then the water doesn't have any extra CO2 to lose. Water natually only contains 2-3ppm of CO2. Us planted tank gear-heads inject to CO2 levels of 20-30ppm.

On your test kit, hardness is Gh (general hardness) and alkalinity is Kh (carbonate hardness). dGh or dKh refers to German Degrees of hardness, rather than a ppm type measurement.

 

[black udder]

I hesitate to follow Malkore as he is a real plant expert, but I can say that I found this article on lighting interesting. It's for SW tanks, but much of it is about lighting in general. It expains the bulbs, sizes, watts, etc.

For a FW setup, I believe folks are saying you'll want 2-2.5 WPG which would put you in search of 60-75 watts of light for your 29g tank.

You might want to add an algea eating critter of some sort - plecos are popular, or other algea eaters. That might cut down a little on your algea.

If you're getting a lot, you might want to check your phosphates.

There's a couple good articles here which breakdown the planted tank and how it works that would be a good read for you.

I believe that you should be able to get away with a good variety of low light plants without CO2 or swapping out your filter. I believe I'm right in that statement - others can verify. You'll just need to make sure that you don't overpopulate with plants.

good luck.

 

[malkore]

Oh I'm no expert, but I try

To hit 75watts, you'd probably wanna use a 55watt power compact, and then a normal fluorescent bulb. if you did that, it wouldn't be quite as difficult to maintain for someone new to plants. You'd still want CO2 injection, and would need to dose potassium, traces, iron, and mabye nitrate and phosphate...but you'll have a wider margin for error as opposed to going with 2x55watt power compacts. And of course, that'd still allow you to bump up to 2x55watt once you got comfortable with 55w+20w

Heck, if you're a little handy with a drill and saw, you could build a canopy, and mount an ahsupply.com kit, or do what I did, and get two 2x20watt normal fluorescent fixtures from Home Depot (mine were on sale for $9 a piece) and install those. You'll have to use a glass top over the tank, but I run 80watts over my 29gallon tank, 4x20watt normal flourescents.

here's a photo of it

The bulbs were about $7 a piece, so $28+$18=$46, plus maybe $30 for the wood for the canopy. That's the ghetto-fab way to do lighting

 

[SteveM]

If you can't find anything at hellolights that fits the bill (and I don't think they carry a 30" freshwater coralife fixture), you'll wanna look at www.ahsupply.com and get a kit instead.

30" Freshwater coralife (1x65W):

http://www.hellolights.com/301xcofraqcf.html

Big Al's also has a 2x65 30" Coralife if you really want it bright.

 

[Quake2player]

Thanks for all the helpful info!
Ok, I've done more research to hopefully narrow down my search on a couple of things:

Lighting: Right now I have an old Perfecto hood and fluroscent measures:
30"L, 12 5/8"W (measured from top of tank)
Now I really want that 30" Coralife Malkore recommended but not too sure if it'll fit. HelloLights wesbtite says: "* A complete hood system, ready to be placed over your tank.", but then these measurements don't seem to jive: * Actual Dimensions -Unit alone: 30"L x 4 3/4"W x 2 3/4"H.
So, am I to assume I'll get a fixture and hood from HelloLights that'll fit over my tank to replace the old Perfecto?

CO2: Ok, the more I read, the more I'm sold on doing some CO2 for my plants. The least painful method to me seems to be that Hagen CO2 Naural Plant System like this one:
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/produ...ll&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Np=1&N=2004&Nty=1
Now my biggest concern is paying for the constant dose of "activator/stabilizer" packets... only $6 each from Dr Fosters.... but how many will I need per month? I can't seem to find specific info on this.

Then doing Flourish tabs, Excel, etc. seem to be the easy part.

So that's my game plan and the questions above are the only things that stop me at this point.

 

[Quake2player]

You might want to add an algea eating critter of some sort - plecos are popular, or other algea eaters. That might cut down a little on your algea.

Don't plecos grow to 6-12 inches? I haven't resorted to them cause I don't believe they belong in a 29 gal community tank unless I cut down on the rest of my stock. Of the "smaller" species of plecos and/or loaches, I haven't had the luck of finding any at my LFS. I tried OTTOS a while back and they seem to die off in about a month or a few. Meanwhile, the rest of my tank always seems fine. I may try ottos again. Then I hear about the common Chinese/Thai algae eaters and how they're only effective when they're young but then harass fish when they're adults... so I don't even consider them.

As far as algae critters go... I'm seriously looking into cherry red shrimps but have to test my tank out with Ghost Shrimps as my Rosey Barbs may make an expensive meal out of Cherries.

 

[loganj]

My preference would be otos, however some of the bristlenose plecos stay relatively small. A large (up to 6") pleco won't be out of place in a tank with smaller fish as they never bother anyone and are totally peaceful except with others of their own species. Another option might be a peckoltia (sp?). They resemble a pleco but stay much smaller.
One potential problem I see, and I do not, under any circumstances, claim to be a plant expert, is your UGF. I have read that UGF, even when running reverse, will have adverse effects on the root system of plants. It's something you might want to check into...ask Malkore perhaps.

 

[youronlysin]

Since the brightest individuals have already posted on this subject, I wont touch on the lighting. I would like to give you something to think about regarding the CO2 though and Im sure the other guys will chime in with more suggestions, as well.

Keep in mind, this is my opinion and I speak from my experience alone, which isnt a lot. I've looked at the Hagen CO2 system your talking about and although it doesnt sound like a bad deal for 30 bucks, I was able to put together a diy CO2 system with a more efficient means of injection for less money. If your considering the Hagen system, this tells me that your concerned with costs. Im with you there. The other guys will give advice as to what might be better, diy or pressurized, with regards to your lighting and tank size. However, if you decide to lean on the side of cost savings, I would recommend building your own CO2 setup over the Hagen system and my reason for this is as follows: The only thing I saw in the Hagen system that I could not easily make myself was the bubble ladder. Instead, I bought a small powerhead, an Aquaclear 1000 (on clearance for 6 dollars) and made my own powered co2 reactor. The additional items I had to pay for were less than 15 dollars altogether. All I needed was some rigid tubing, a couple different sizes of flexible tubing, filter sponge and sugar/yeast. Although you can spend more, I was able to do it quite cheap and the instructions to build are everywhere on this site if you search. Now, using the setup is a whole other story and I am still trying to get it right, but with all the help on this site Im getting pretty close.

p.s. You can try an even cheaper method of CO2 injection than a powered reactor if you just use Malkore's picture above as reference. If I had to take a guess, I'd say that the piece of airline tubing that terminates near the filter intake tube (on the pic above) is the CO2 outlet. A lot of people use this method as well.....the CO2 is injected into the filter intake tube...the Filter's impeller breaks the CO2 bubbles into smaller bubbles that are more easily dissolved in the water. The filter takes care of the circulation. all you need then is a bottle and cheap yeast mixture!

 

[Quake2player]

Just got 65 watt Coralife

Thanks to everone here, I took a big step and found a relatively close LFS (just happened to be in NJ on Sunday and went to a LFS recommended by the NY/NJ forum!) and got myself a 65W Coralife and All Glass Canopy to finally upgrade my lighting. So far, the plants seem to be benefiting compared to before as they already seemed to be getting worse.

Youronlysin... I'm leaning towards doing a DIY CO2 and the soda bottle/yeast project looks intriguing. I then checked out Malkore's website to check out his fantastic setups ... he does mention the eventually went to pressurized CO2 cause DIY became too much of a pain and inconsistent... now that kindof set me back couple of steps, heh. Then again, since he's running multiple tanks, maybe his needs are far more demanding. I'd like for him to elaborate on this if he happens to read this .
So I am still naturally wondering, how good/consistent is that Hagen CO2 system with the tabs? Is that a good setup for a 29 gallon tank? Who knows, I may be fiddling with yeast this upcoming weekend.

I still haven't purchased the Flourish and Excel yet just to see how the upgraded lighting is affecting the plants. That'll probably change by this weekend.

 

[malkore]

So, am I to assume I'll get a fixture and hood from HelloLights that'll fit over my tank to replace the old Perfecto?

What you will get is a compact fluorescent fixture, which is meant to be placed over a glass top, or open top tank IF you also purchase their mounting legs for $7.
I'd put the whole perfecto hood/light into storage.

CO2: Ok, the more I read, the more I'm sold on doing some CO2 for my plants. The least painful method to me seems to be that Hagen CO2 Naural Plant System like this one:
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/produ...ll&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Np=1&N=2004&Nty=1
Now my biggest concern is paying for the constant dose of "activator/stabilizer" packets... only $6 each from Dr Fosters.... but how many will I need per month? I can't seem to find specific info on this.

If I were you, I'd ONLY buy the ladder/diffuser, and just do a DIY setup. The hagen kit is just glorified DIY with pre-measured yeast/baking soda packets, and a little grey canister that'll never make enough CO2 for your size tank.

 

[aquazen]

I can't remember who posted this info, but it might have been Malkore. It was a comparison of DIY CO2 versus pressurized CO2 system (but don't quote me on it). I believe the pressurized system actually came out the winner in the long run, so it might be a worthwhile purchase if you are planning on making your planted tank a long term project. It's also a lot less hassle. You won't have to worry about backflow of yeast into your tank or having to mix up a new batch every 2 weeks.

 

[Quake2player]

Well now my interest is peaking further... I checked out one of the sites here about CO2 cannisters:

CO2 2lb cannster with CGA-320 Valve: sale price of $58.99

For a 29 gallon and maybe a 10 gallon tank with a few plants, how long will this cannister last? Are there any safety concerns with having this cannister in my living room?

 

[malkore]

I think that 2lb cylinder is too small. Get at least a 5lb tank.
My 5lb tank lasts 10 months on a 75gallon tank, running 24/7 (no pH controller)
It'll also probably cost the same to get a 2lb tank filled vs. a 5lb tank...as I know a 10lb tank is only a dollar or so more to have filled vs. a 5lb.

The only safety concern is making sure the tank doesn't get knocked over on its side. If the valve was broken off, you'd have a short range, blunt missle travelling 500 feet per second. But it would take a long drop onto concrete, or a sledge hammer, to pop that valve off.

Some people really worry about slow leaks of CO2, but that'll dissapate into the atmosphere before it builds up. Some worry about the safey valve poping, and dumping the whole tank's CO2 supply into the room...and that is really your only true 'risk'. However I've never heard of this actually happening...and if it did, you'd hear a very loud hissing sound as the cylinder vented. That valve should only pop if the tank has too much pressure in it from over filling, or becoming excessively heated (such as being left in the car in the summer).

Even then, its more likely that a cat or dog would suffer the effects of lack of oxygen, as CO2 is heavier than the air we breath, and will collect low to the ground.

All said, I think the only real risk you'd have, would be having a co2 cylinder in your bedroom...where you might not wake up to the hissing safety valve. However I'd estimate you're as likely to die in a plane crash, win the lotto, or get struck by lightning, as you would be to die to asphyxiation caused by a leaking CO2 cylinder

Oh, and for the record, DIY mixtures can explode if the airline gets clogged in any way. Pressurized CO2 simply stops if the line gets blocked, as the liquid CO2 will stop turning into gaseous Co2...while the yeast in a DIY mix will make CO2 regardless of whether it can escape. And I have witnessed this...first hand. I used to brew my own beer, and once I bottled some Stout and used a smidge too much sugar...and had a 1/3 of a case explode in my closet...in glass bottles no less 8O

 

[Quake2player]

Thanks for all the info Malkore. Sounds like it's probably more risky to have my BBQ propane tank close to the house 8)

This may sound like a silly question, but I also noticed they sell these CO2 tanks online "empty". Am I supposed to find a local supplier of CO2 to fill the tank?