Reasons why Cycling wouldn't work?

[GregW]

31 days, no nitrites or nitrates the whole month. Ammonia dosed once to 4-5, dropped once to 1-2, redosed and never dropped again. Down to 1 today after water change.

40 Gal freshwater tank.
Prime.
API Master test kit.
Temp 88.
3 water changes
No shrimp or fish food
PH fluctuating between 6-9
No access to media from other tank

Has anyone had success cycling with only ammonia and no media from another tank to jump start it?

Please list all possible reasons why or how could a tank not produce any nitrites for 31 days.

Thanks for any help.

 

[phishfriend]

Yes, cycling with out media is every possible. Most of the time that's how it is done.

With the info you provided. I see one thing that really jumped out at me. you said the PH is ranging from 6 to 9ppm. There is something every off with that.

What test are you using and are you doing water changes? Your PH shouldn't jumping like that.

 

[subliminalanarchy]

The most common reason I hear of when someone's tank isn't cycling is because of over cleaning. A lot of people get so caught up in trying to make everything perfect that they accidentally kill all the beneficial bacteria by going OCD on their maintenance. That would be my best guess.

• Do you ever clean out the entire filter, or just the filter pad?
• Do you do complete water changes or partial?
• Do you treat the water before, during, or after?

Other than that, I don't have any concrete info for you. I read an article a long time ago that mentioned something about the BB needing certain nutrients in the water as well. Seems unlikely that this would be your problem unless you're using distilled, but I heard that if you crunch up a little bit of fish food and put it in your water it can help add nutrients.

If it were me, I would turn down the temperature a little bit, down to 84-86 or so, and I would just cycle the tank with fish food. No real reason for it but that's what I've had success with. Oh and make sure there's always some ammonia in your tank until you start getting nitrites, otherwise it can starve off, which would delay the process.

Oh and if your PH is actually fluctuating between 6 and 9 then something is horribly wrong. My guess is it's probably just a few bad readings on your test kit though.

Good luck with it. Patience is key.

 

[GregW]

I use the API freshwater master test kit. I use both the PH and High PH test. Maybe I just get some inconsistent readings. It seems like my water is naturally about 7.0-7.2 which is where it is now. It was off the charts high 2 days ago. About a week after I started I got some readings that were low like 6.0 or under. I added baking soda but put to much and had to do a water change to bring it down. I test for ammonia every day and it has never dropped below 1.
I'm also thinking I just get a few bad readings. Is that normal?

I have done three 30% water changes. Only when I thought the Ammonia or PH was to high. I put a cap ful of prime in the tank right after adding the water. I had the Temp at 84 for the first 3 weeks so I tried cranking it up.

I have a Fluval G series and havent cleaned the filter because the flow hasn't gone down from 100% and with no Nitrites or Nitrates I didn't think I was supposed to. I have done no cleaning to the tank. I did remove a couple of inches of substrate a few days ago on recommendations from here. I have glass substrate to big to vacuum and had about 3". I brought it down to 1".

How much fish food would you add. If I could talk a store into giving me some gravel from one of their tanks would you try that over fish food?

 

[jetajockey]

As the ph goes into the 6s nitrification likewise slows, so that's a good reason why you might have a stall.

A simple remedy is to buffer the water with a handful of crushed coral.

 

[subliminalanarchy]

I use the API freshwater master test kit. I use both the PH and High PH test. Maybe I just get some inconsistent readings. It seems like my water is naturally about 7.0-7.2 which is where it is now. It was off the charts high 2 days ago. About a week after I started I got some readings that were low like 6.0 or under. I added baking soda but put to much and had to do a water change to bring it down. I test for ammonia every day and it has never dropped below 1.
I'm also thinking I just get a few bad readings. Is that normal? ?

Bad readings are normal, but I think you're doing more harm than good by adding baking soda. I've always heard that it's best to just leave the PH completely alone unless you absolutely know what you're doing. Slow and steady changes should be okay though, like the crushed coral suggestion above.

I have a Fluval G series and havent cleaned the filter because the flow hasn't gone down from 100% and with no Nitrites or Nitrates I didn't think I was supposed to.

You're not Just the filter pad, never clean the entire filter at one time.

How much fish food would you add. If I could talk a store into giving me some gravel from one of their tanks would you try that over fish food?

Fish food works just like the ammonia trick. Add just enough to keep the ammonia at a constant level, probably around 2-3. If the ammonia gets too high I've heard it can stall it.

Seeding your tank is the easiest way to do it, just make sure they dont have any issues with their tank like ich.

 

[Shanny]

I put a cap ful of prime in the tank right after adding the water.?

Always add the prime before the water. If untreated water hits your tank without prime in it it will kill the bb you have so far. If you added the prime after the water when you did the 30% wc then that is probably why your cycle is taking so long. If you can add the prime to the water before it goes in your tank. If you can't then add the prime to the tank first.

 

[phishfriend]

I would also crank the heat up to mid 80's. the love the heat!

 

[GregW]

Very valued help all!
So I will make sure to add Prime before adding water. How long should you wait before adding the water. To those who put prime in their water before adding it to the tank, how long do you wait, doesn't the water cool off to much?

The coral is one I had read and thought about. For some reason I imagined it being for salt water only. How much would you put for a 40 gal tank? Can I just place some loose in a corner or do I have to put it in something?

I there a consensus that the more heat the better? I cranked mine up to 88-90. 84 wasn't working but obviously it could have been something else. Go back to 84-86?

For what reasons before the cycling should I do water changes? I was under the impression you only do that late in the cycle to bring the Nitrates down before adding the fish.

 

[GregW]

Off to get some crushed coral, and maybe some used gravel of media. I'll update my results for others suffering through a similar plight.

 

[jlk]

I agree with most of what has been posted thus far. I suspect the combination of treating the water after refilling and the wildly fluctuating ph have been the main factors in the lack of progress in your cycle.

Do you know if your tap contains chlorine or chloramines (public water)? Excess of either may prevent a cycle from ever starting. Have you tested your tap for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate? I would check this too because it is possible that you may be overdosing on ammonia if your tap already contains some. Excess ammonia can also cause a jump in ph as well as a stall a cycle.

In respect to wcs during a fishless cycle, generally they are not necessary but there are some exceptions such as overdosing on ammonia, a ph crash or excess of nitrite and/or nitrate. All of these things may slow or stall a cycle.

For crushed coral, its a bit of trial and error to figure out a good amount. Start with a spoonful or two in a mesh bag or piece of clean pantyhose. Stick this in your filter. Then just monitor your ph. If you notice it falling, add some more cc. If it jumps drastically, remove some and do a water change. I probably missed something here but dont hesitate to ask more questions!

 

[GregW]

Ok So I found a local aquarium business that has been in the neighborhood for 43 years. And I found a few things that might be the reason for my cycling problems. I'll share them here as and share my results as I'm starting over.

I take no position on the accuracy but this man is helping me out so I'm going to try his suggestions.

First off I have been mixing up the test tubes. His position was on the PH tube you cannot use it for anything else or you will get false reads. So I got all new tubes and will keep them all separate.

Next it has been this businesses experience that they have had no success using Prime as a water conditioner while cycling. In fact they ended up going so far as to change substrate before re starting. They won't even carry it in the store.
So like I said most might disagree but I'm not in a position to turn down advice at this point.I'm going with the water conditioner they use.

Lastly my wife and I thought we had stumbled across a great idea for substrate. We saw some decorative glass in the pet sores but it was a few ounces and unpractical to do the whole tank. So I did some searching and found a company that sold crushed, tumbled glass in 50lb bags. It was for many purposes but they advertised a line for Aquariums also. And they had a sale fot $1 a pound.
Well this man told me through trial and error he had came to the opinion that colored glass was bad for the tank. He was shocked that glass could leach but thought it might have to do with the very soft water in our area. So again you might think this is hog wash but I'm starting over with new Substrate, new test vials, and a different water conditioner. I just re set up the tank. He will give me some used gravel tomorrow and I'll update my results here.

 

[Teakwood]

If you weren't turning off your filters when adding the water(because is wasn't conditioned yet the chlorine ext. in the water would have been going into your filter and killing your filter media, I turn my filters off and let the water sit in the tank for about 15-20 to make sure its all dechlorinated before it runs through the filter. Just a thought.

 

[GregW]

Thanks for the Tip. I did not think of that and did leave my filter on. I won't do that one again.

 

[GregW]

Starting over with new gravel instead of glass. Added a couple of pounds from the fish tank at the local aquarium store. Day 1, come on Nitrites!

 

[Shanny]

Starting over with new gravel instead of glass. Added a couple of pounds from the fish tank at the local aquarium store. Day 1, come on Nitrites!

Pretty tank!

 

[simplicitysarah]

Ok So I found a local aquarium business that has been in the neighborhood for 43 years. And I found a few things that might be the reason for my cycling problems. I'll share them here as and share my results as I'm starting over.

I take no position on the accuracy but this man is helping me out so I'm going to try his suggestions.

First off I have been mixing up the test tubes. His position was on the PH tube you cannot use it for anything else or you will get false reads. So I got all new tubes and will keep them all separate.

Next it has been this businesses experience that they have had no success using Prime as a water conditioner while cycling. In fact they ended up going so far as to change substrate before re starting. They won't even carry it in the store.
So like I said most might disagree but I'm not in a position to turn down advice at this point.I'm going with the water conditioner they use.

Lastly my wife and I thought we had stumbled across a great idea for substrate. We saw some decorative glass in the pet sores but it was a few ounces and unpractical to do the whole tank. So I did some searching and found a company that sold crushed, tumbled glass in 50lb bags. It was for many purposes but they advertised a line for Aquariums also. And they had a sale fot $1 a pound.
Well this man told me through trial and error he had came to the opinion that colored glass was bad for the tank. He was shocked that glass could leach but thought it might have to do with the very soft water in our area. So again you might think this is hog wash but I'm starting over with new Substrate, new test vials, and a different water conditioner. I just re set up the tank. He will give me some used gravel tomorrow and I'll update my results here.

I've never heard of the not mixing test tubes.. Even if you rinse and let dry out?

 

[jetajockey]

Ok So I found a local aquarium business that has been in the neighborhood for 43 years. And I found a few things that might be the reason for my cycling problems. I'll share them here as and share my results as I'm starting over.

I take no position on the accuracy but this man is helping me out so I'm going to try his suggestions.

First off I have been mixing up the test tubes. His position was on the PH tube you cannot use it for anything else or you will get false reads. So I got all new tubes and will keep them all separate.

Next it has been this businesses experience that they have had no success using Prime as a water conditioner while cycling. In fact they ended up going so far as to change substrate before re starting. They won't even carry it in the store.
So like I said most might disagree but I'm not in a position to turn down advice at this point.I'm going with the water conditioner they use.

Lastly my wife and I thought we had stumbled across a great idea for substrate. We saw some decorative glass in the pet sores but it was a few ounces and unpractical to do the whole tank. So I did some searching and found a company that sold crushed, tumbled glass in 50lb bags. It was for many purposes but they advertised a line for Aquariums also. And they had a sale fot $1 a pound.
Well this man told me through trial and error he had came to the opinion that colored glass was bad for the tank. He was shocked that glass could leach but thought it might have to do with the very soft water in our area. So again you might think this is hog wash but I'm starting over with new Substrate, new test vials, and a different water conditioner. I just re set up the tank. He will give me some used gravel tomorrow and I'll update my results here.

Everyone has their own way I reckon, it'd be cool to see their reasoning for these beliefs, though, because they don't really make much sense to me.

Regarding Prime, I've seen hundreds of people who have used it or use it regularly with new and established tanks, as well as the company's claims, as well as personally using it off and on for years. Dechlorinators with ammonia binders could theoretically make it a little more difficult for nitrifiers to work, but I've never seen any actual data or trials leading to this conclusion. Even still, it's 'binding' effects only last up to 48 hours, so the effect is temporary.

That said, Prime is unnecessary in a tank without fish in it, just use a basic water conditioner (sodium thiosulfate) and rock on with it.


The test tube thing is also odd, I've mixed test tubes regularly, know plenty of other people who do, and API makes no statements or warnings that I know of regarding this, so I'd have to assume that this claim is not based in fact either.


A lot of old school LFS owners are like this though, they have their own methodology and many have not embraced the ease of information gathering and sharing with the internet era. Fishkeeping, especially pre-internet age, was rife with witchcraft and sorcery, magic potions and spells. It still is to some extent, but most people have become more educated in different aspects.

He could very well be giving you the best advice as he see's fit, but as to how accurate it is, ..eh.

The question that keeps ringing in my head is this: Did the guy happen to sell you all of the stuff that you 'need' to use rather than what you had already? I sense a trend here.

Restarting just set you back even more IMO, building the biofilm is a huge part of getting a tank established, so starting back from scratch shouldn't even be on the table. It's not that unusual to not see movement for 3-4 weeks, it does happen, and the reasoning is simple. pH fluctuations are somewhat common in newer cycling tanks, but if it's dropping into the 6's it can very well slow/stall the cycling process.

Either way I hope it works out for you, just try to be patient and let the tank do the work. I'm not a fan of fishless cycling for that reason alone, I like putting fish in the tank immediately,have never been given a good reason not to.

 

[Cynic]

My tank took longer than 31 days to generate nitrAtes

 

[GregW]

Hey, thanks for the good advice all. As I stated I give no validity to this mans claims. But I was getting no help from anyone else including here in different posts. This man was just responding to my desperate call for help. He wasn't pushing products.

On the Prime it wasn't a big deal he just hasn't had good luck starting new tanks with it but as you say he could be wrong. The test tube advice was really centered on PH testing. His contention was that you should only use one tube for PH testing otherwise you can get false readings.

This family has had a shop locally for 41 years. So much of their thinking could be backwards or outdated. But I'm giving them a try because I ran out of any other explanations, ideas or hope.

So far things seem to be going a lot better. My ammonia has slowly dropped and reached .50 today so I re dossed. Before I went a month with no movement on my ammonia at all. The PH is remaining stable at around 7.2. No Nitrites yet but I'm hopeful.
I will keep updating and listening to the help provided.
Thanks