Repeated Dwarf Gourami Deaths

[Hypatia]

Okay so my levels are fine (Ammo 0, Nitrites 0, Nitrates 40ppm ie on the high side of normal) and the other water parameters were well within the gourami's range (Ph 7, GH 75/soft, KH 90-120ppm, 76o f).

So before I got the Zebra Loach and the Dwarf Puffer (who are temporary additions to clean out a massive pond snail problem) and well before I added the neons (which were just put in today) I bought a dwarf gourami. He had the brightest blues I have ever seen and seemed healthy and happy the first day. He ate when I fed the other fish and didn't even hide behind the Elodea I bought and planted just to make sure he would have an ideal hiding place and good cover for some shade areas in the tank. But on day two or three (I can't remember exactly) he started looking dazed and just hanging listlessly around the top of the aquarium. Finally he did several funky flips and wedged himself behind the filter. He died within a bout half an hour.

Fast forward, I add the zebra and the dwarf puffer and all is well. Levels stay good, so I try to add the gourami again. Again the same exact scenario... Seems healthy, eats first day, listless at top, flips and freaks out, dies in a spasm. All levels fine except the borderline nitrates, and I REALLY don't think those are the problem since the water from the aquarium they came from (got both fish from the same usually reputable store) tested out a 80-100ppm for nitrates. (I always test the water that the fish come in so I know how slowly to acclimate them.) The ph in the tank he came from was like 6.6 or so, and as I said the nitrates were high so I took over three hours to acclimate the second time... and as I said he did not seem stressed at first.
(BTW, I was assured by the LFS lady that the puffer was a community fish great for snails in my little aquarium, and only found out how aggressive they are when I got home and read up. However, so far he has been quite the gentleman and only harasses the snails.. and he is SOO cute and curious. I wish I could keep him.)

So here's the question... when I return the zebra and the puffer, I'd like to add a dwarf gourami again, but I don't want to keep killing them. Is there something about my set up that is causing the deaths? Have others had similar experiences? Is there some water parameter I don't know about and should test? Could I have some gourami specific bacterial issue in my tank? Is there another small gourami (2 inches or so) that would do well in my tank?
Any other suggestions?

.... except don't get on your aquarium 101 soapbox and tell me they died because I have too many fish (Don't assume that this 5.5 is my first aquarium, it's not by a long shot.. it's just what I have room and time for right now). I have worked carefully (with another long time aquarist's help) to raise the tank's ability to cycle out nitrogen (air driven undergravel & ten gallon rated low flow filter with ceramic filter medium + plants and driftwood as extra surfaces for bacteria) and break down nitrates (lots of easy fast growing plants, great lighting, and very regular vacuuming & water changes) beyond it's normal range of 5 inches of fish... and it's been working! I mean, I have tested regularly and gone slowly and never pushed the cycle beyond what it seems to be able to handle... the water quality levels have remained normal... if that changes I'll decrease the fish load of course. Also (except the puffer and zebra) I choose each fish to be highly compatable in their water quality, tank level use (top, middle, bottom) and set-up needs. He may have felt crowded (but remember there were no neons then), and there may be some other water quality issue, but it was not simple ammonia or nitrite spikes.

TIA,
Hypatia



PS........

I think I answered most of these in my above post, and I don't know if this counts as a sick fish post, but just in case....

1~What type of fish is afflicted? In addition, please describe what is wrong with the fish to the best of your ability (i.e. cotton like growth, bloated, etc.).

Dwarf Gourami, no obvious signs, maybe a little bit bloated.

2~What are your tank parameters (ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, temp, pH)? Please give exact values.

See Above ..Ammo 0, Nitrites 0, Nitrates 40ppm ie on the high side of normal, Ph 7, GH 75/soft, KH 90-120ppm, 76o f

3~ How large is the tank? How long has the tank been set up?

5.5, has been set up for thress months. But only about 1 1/2 months as a soft, nuetral tank. Before that it was a high ph guppy tank.

4~What type of filtration are you using? Please give the name and number (i.e. Fluval 304) and amount of gph if known.

Fluval 1 (I think) internal 12 Gallon rated filter, plus and air driven undergravel filter

5~How many fish are in the tank? What kinds of fish are they and what are their current sizes?
This is a bit more complicated since we are talking about two different times with different groups of fish, see above. But the sizes are... zebra 1.5", peppered cory 1.5'", 2 ottos 1", dwarf puffer .5", Both Dwarf Gouramis were about 2"

6~When is the last time you did a water change and vacuum the gravel? How often do you do this? How much water do you remove at a time?

I do a 20% water change weekly to 2x a week. I vacumed the gravel and did a 50% water change before adding the second gourami. I used RO water for changes, since my well water is high ph, and test ph as I am adding to make sure it stays at 7.

7~How long have you had the fish? If the fish is new, how did you acclimate it/them?

Corry & the snail are the oldest at about a month 1/2, Ottos about a month, the zebra & puffer about two weeks, and the neons were added today. The gouramis were added (and died) at three weeks and several days ago. Most fish normally over about an hour or so, the Ottos and second gourami over four or five hours of very small water additions to thier bags.

8~Have you added anything new to the tank--decor, new dechlorinator, new substrate, etc.?

A ph buffer to keep the tank at 7, about one week ago. It did contain phosphates. I added stresscoat when I put in the second gourami.

9~What kind of food have you been feeding your fish, have you changed their diet recently?

A few Tetramin Tropical Crips 1/day, about a 1/4? tsp or so live or frozen foods 1/day (frozen brine, frozen bloodworms, live occasionally mosquito larva), Hikari bottom feeder and algea eater disks every few days. And of course the puffer and loach eat the live snails & ottos eat algea.

 

[Zagz]

Welcome to AA! My first question would be are all the gourami's you buy from the same lfs? If so have you observed how long they survive there? It seems like your acclimation process was more that sufficient. Try another lfs is they were all purchased at the same place. It may be something entirely different but that is the first thing that pops into my mind.

 

[Devilishturtles]

Welcome to AA! In addition to Zagz' questions, what is your tap water pH before you buffer it?

The problem with buffers, as I'm sure you know, is that they cause the pH to flucuate a lot. Your other fish are fine however, so the only way this would be an issue is if your gourami is weak from the start. It could also be a bacterial issue that is coming from your LFS tank, effecting the swim bladder of the fish, and causing sudden death like so.

My advice is to try an anti-bacterial medicated food when you introduce new fish and see if that helps things.

Its hard to guess internal problems...but that's me best stab at it.

Best of luck.

 

[Hypatia]

First Question... Yes it was the same store, same tank, and most likely the same shipment of fish both times (They don't have a huge fish turn over. They are my small locally owned LFS, and the one I prefer to use. Sad if I have to go to the big corepret FS). Already sick fich was my first guess as the problem too, but I didn't want to let myself off the hook too easy.

I used the PH buffer because when I added the RO water the ph would be at 7, but it would slowly creap up over the next few days to about 7.4 to 7.6. I noticed this after the first Gourami died, so I thought the ph change might have been part of the problem. Since the buffer, the water has stayed perfectly stable.
My tap water is more like 8.6 or higher and very hard, which is why I don't use it anymore. The water is currently soft (but on the moderate end of soft) and at 7... but before starting with the RO water changes the tank had well water. I had a very hard time getting it soft enough to be able to even put a dent in the high ph... and then getting the ph down enough to even think about adding tetras or gouramis. This was back when I had guppies, and all I wanted was to get an otto to live happily for algae. Fighting the nitrates will always be an issue for my tank the way I have it set up, so algae will always be an issue. Anyway, I didn't just pour our the water and start over, I added the RO water over say three weeks of succesive water changes, and at some point moved the guppies into another tank in my daughters room and concentrated on keeping the cory happy and getting an otto to survive acclimation.

Anyway, the bottom line is... do you think it is safe to try another gourami when the zebra and puffer are gone if it is from a differnt LFS?

Hypatia

 

[malkore]

Honestly, I don't care you if have 1,000gph turnover on that 5.5 gal tank...it still only has 5.5 gallons of swimming space for the fish.

Everyone seems to focus solely on bio-filtration, ignoring crowding and space issues.

A human can survive indefinitely in a 3'x6' jail cell as long as you feed them, provide oxygen, and a way to remove waste. But there's no quality of life. That human would have no will to live if he knew he was trapped there forever.
Fish in these situations are just going to be under constant stress, to the point that any little hiccup in their routine could push them over the edge.


If advocating the humane treatment of fish makes me a soapbox preacher, so be it.
Call me Rev. malkore. my license is on file at the Universal Life Church. (no joke)

 

[IceH2O]

I agree with malkore. Gouramis like a place to hide as they are a bit skittish around other active fish.

Also Gouramis can and will adapt to the pH of 7.6, better to adapt them then to have the pH jumping all over the place. So a 50/50 of RO and tap should be ok. The 20% twice a week is a good regiment because they prefer smaller frequent pwcs.

But...

Gouramis need 10 gallons to themselves, you have him in half the size with other fish. Like malkore said, you could live in cramped spaces but you won't have the same quality of life. Think of it has your entire family living in a 10x10 room. You could do it but wouldn't you like some privacy?

Gouramis are easily stressed and a stressed fish is an unhealthy fish. Please rethink the Gourami or get a 20 gallon long tank to house him with the other occupants.

The 5.5 would be good for a Betta and an apple snail.

 

[Menagerie]

5.5 Gallon w/ 18w compact florescent tubes
1 Cory, 1 (temp snail eater) Zebra Loach, 2 Otos
4 Neons, 1 Dwarf Puffer, & an Apple Snail

Without the loach and puffer, the tank mates would be okay.

& before you tell me that's too many fish...
It's a heavily planted, double filtered tank that I test on a regular basis. Everyone's doing fine, living peacfully together, & PH, Ammo, Nitri/Nitra levels have been excellent for over a month.

One month does not a peaceful tank make. Having been on this site for a long time and helped many members with over stocked tanks and having done it myself, all I can say is your time is not on your side. I understand this is not your first aquarium, which means you know the larger the aquarium, the more stable the environment. If you only have room for a small tank, try getting a tank with a slightly larger footprint, but taller, such as a hex tank. This would free up swimming room and allow territories to be set up. It won't necessarily solve the gourami dilemma, but you would still have a little tank and the inhabitants would have more “elbow” room.

.... except don't get on your aquarium 101 soapbox and tell me they died because I have too many fish (Don't assume that this 5.5 is my first aquarium, it's not by a long shot.. it's just what I have room and time for right now).

Everyone here looks out for the best interest of the fish and a 5.5 gal is not it. You may find another forum to be more to your liking.

BTW, I was assured by the LFS lady that the puffer was a community fish great for snails in my little aquarium, and only found out how aggressive they are when I got home and read up.

Unfortunately, that's a common experience.

Anyway, the bottom line is... do you think it is safe to try another gourami when the zebra and puffer are gone

Not at this time. When the first gourami died, he was with a cory and the apple snail? The second died with the above mentioned fish? Since this is your LFS of choice and they don’t have a high turn over rate, I would observe all the gouramis over a period of days (or weeks). If they are not dieing at the LFS, then something in your tank is to blame. Have you asked the employees at the LFS if they are loosing gouramis?

if it is from a differnt LFS?

I would observe the fish first.

 

[Nippyfish]

I've been in this situation myself. I breed DGs at home and have lost 3 female DGs and have one sick one now. The 3 females all did the spazzy whirly-thing before dying. (one I didn't see, it was just found dead) The sick one has been whirling around for about 5 weeks now. I feed her by hand. Two females I bought at the LFS and two I bred.

The LFS guy warned me that they are prone to SBD. This does make sense (unable to right themselves) but I haven't been able to treat it successfully. I also wondered if they had Dropsy. I haven't spoken with any other DG breeders so I don't know if this is common.

Sorry I can't be of much help. Just wanted to let you know that I have had some problems with them too without any obvious water issues.

 

[Devilishturtles]

Gouramis are prone, like many labyrinth fishes, to swim bladder disease. Stress and shock also contribute to SBD. Internal infections are also a cause of sudden deaths and the twirly twitchy action before dying.

Hypatia, sort out your snail problem first. Your overstocked tank could be an issue with the gourami.

 

[Zagz]

Not at this time. When the first gourami died, he was with a cory and the apple snail? The second died with the above mentioned fish? Since this is your LFS of choice and they don’t have a high turn over rate, I would observe all the gouramis over a period of days (or weeks). If they are not dieing at the LFS, then something in your tank is to blame. Have you asked the employees at the LFS if they are loosing gouramis?
Quote:
if it is from a differnt LFS?

I would observe the fish first.
_________________

This is exactly why I was asking if the fish were from the sake LFS. Menagerie is right, check with other lfs's and see how long their gourami's last and observe what the fish look like.

You did say you were considering adding the gourami upon returning the puffer & the zebra right?

 

[Hypatia]

If advocating the humane treatment of fish makes me a soapbox preacher, so be it.
Call me Rev. malkore. my license is on file at the Universal Life Church. (no joke)

My too, actually. I was ordained in the FOI with credentials through the ULC in 1991, but now I am more or less an atheist (you can be an atheist and be affiliated with the ULC, but not so much FOI

Anyway, I didn't not say don't tell me it's over crowed in terms of swimming space. I allowed, in fact, for that as a possibility... ie making the distinction between that and the bio issue.

What I was calling getting on a soap box is all those newbies who just learned about the nitrogen cycle or better yet just learned the 1"/gallon rule and just can't wait to diagnose someone else's "bio" problem. What I meant by the statement was I am looking for info about other possible issues given that I test constantly (knowing that a bio problem is certainly a possibility in my situation) and that .... at least the simplest form of that is NOT the problem this time. I did not mean to offend anyone, I just did not want to have to wade through twenty, aquairum 101 lessons to get to the info I was actually looking for.

I am actually concerned that feeling stress because of being crowed could be the problem. Not so much because of the other fish (remember that the other fish that were in there at the time of the first gourami were.. a cory always on the bottom often hiding, 2 baby ottos again during the day mostly clinging to the walls.. and that's it. At the time of the second gourami, it was those plus a 1 1/2" zebra loach who was definitely everywhere all the time and maybe the problem; and a puffer who is barley an inch and always sneaks around close-up to the plants looking for snails) The open water part of the tank was basically unused.

I am more concerned that there would be overcrowding due to ALL the plants. But what I read said that heavy plantings to hide in would actually make the gourami feel right at home, since that is their natural habitat (mostly just hanging around in thick tall plants). This is one reason I choose that fish specifically, he seemed well suited to the space because he stays under 2" and hangs around about mid tank, using the open water mostly to move from shelter to shelter.

This info may be bogus, or not applicable to the aquarium raised variety... but I hardly think it's fair to call someone who is testing and changing water constantly to maintain the fishes' preferred levels, spending hours researching, going to the trouble to feed live and frozen foods, and getting on forums to ask "is my tank well suited for this fish, because I don't want to kill another one" inhumane.

As others usggested I did talk to the fish store people today (I am in there nearly everyday since I go over after my radiation treatments to relax and pass the time while I am out of work due to cancer treatment... WAIT that was not a bid for sympathy.. I am doing well.. it was just to explain that I am not a total loser . They said that this last batch of gouramis were pretty stressed when they came in and they had a higher than usual die off... so maybe the earlier posters were right.

However, I think given how suseptibale the gouramis are to stress and how prone to SB issues, and others concernes that they need a 10 gallon or more (I had read 5g/fish on a site, and now that I think about it they probably meant like if your keeping multiples), I will just chose a differnt fish. I am currently thinking of a dwarf rainbow fish, on the suggestion of one of the LFS people (he is a good resource and fellow cancer survivor , since they do not need to be in a school like a tetra or get to big like the most other gouramis.

Hypatia

PS

You did say you were considering adding the gourami upon returning the puffer & the zebra right?

Zags
Yes, Zagz that's ture... thank you for clearifing that. I think some people missed that part.

Thank you to everyone for the advice... especially to the people who cafefully read the whole post (Yeah, I know it was way long) and understood that I had no intetnion to keeping all the fish listed together. As I said in the original post, the puffer and the loach go back to the LFS shortly (and well before I would add any other fish) given the they have made short work of the snail problem and the LFS people assured me that they are happy to have me fatten up thier loaches on live snails anytime

 

[Menagerie]

1"/gallon rule

I have to say that here at AA, we don't normally abide by that rule; although, it does come up.

What I meant by the statement was I am looking for info about other possible issues given that I test constantly (knowing that a bio problem is certainly a possibility in my situation) and that .... at least the simplest form of that is NOT the problem this time.

Most members go with a minimum of 6x gph up to 10x, which is probably where you are with the larger filter.

It seems that people have come up with the same thought:

I am actually concerned that feeling stress because of being crowed could be the problem. Not so much because of the other fish

The open water part of the tank was basically unused.

Sometimes this is a catch 22--fish won't use the open space if other fish are not in it, yet if all your fish used that space, they would be gill to tiny gill.

last batch of gouramis were pretty stressed when they came in and they had a higher than usual die off.

Unfortunately, this happens to batches of fish at one point or another.

I had read 5g/fish on a site

Fish sites can be like LFS employees--not always accurate. Or they are accurate for certain species and not others, but I digress.

With a cory, some neons and an apple snail, I will say the swimming room is limited. I'm not one for "center piece" fish and would instead add a couple more cories to finish out the grouping.

dwarf rainbow fish

Is this a Thread or Celebes? Or a true dwarf of a larger species?

 

[RoK]

I am currently thinking of a dwarf rainbow fish, on the suggestion of one of the LFS people (he is a good resource and fellow cancer survivor , since they do not need to be in a school

Actually, rainbows are schooling fish and prefer to be in large groups of the same species.

 

[Hypatia]

Most members go with a minimum of 6x gph up to 10x, which is probably where you are with the larger filter. -Menagerie

Okay that one is a new rule to me... and I am not sure I know exactly what you mean. Gph, is gallons per hour right?... but what is 6x up to 10x? Is it having 6-10 times your tank size in how much water your filter can move?... or something like that?

With a cory, some neons and an apple snail, I will say the swimming room is limited. I'm not one for "center piece" fish and would instead add a couple more cories to finish out the grouping. -Menagerie

You know I was looking at the neons swimming around tonight... in and out of their school.. and I was thinking how nice they look in the tank just them (I returned the zebra loach today, because between him and the puffer I can't find a single snail. They wiped at least 50 or so out in less than two weeks!). I'd love to get another cory, because I had read that they like company.... BUT I also read that they need about 5 gallons of space a piece in terms of territory. So I thought they might harass eachother too much or be over stressed in my tank.. so I only got one peppered cory (because they max out smaller than others). He is great though! Very Active, quite a character!

Actually, rainbows are schooling fish and prefer to be in large groups of the same species. -RoK

Well, Pooh! I checked it out today and your right... although what I read said that one interesting thing about rainbows in general is that in the absence of others of their species they will happily join other schools (which is probably what made the LFS guy think they were okay on their own, since he has a big tank with several schools of other types of rainbows and tetras.)

I guess I will just have to keep searching for the perfect fish, that I love and that loves the tank and space and lack of same species companionship that I have to offer. Any suggestions?

Thanks Again,
Hypatia

 

[Fishyfanatic]

When using a hob filter you will want the tank to be turned over 10x per hour. So if you have a 10 gal tank, the filtration rate should be 100 gph.

Cories are schooling fish and prefer to be in numbers of at least 5. You may want to reconsider keeping the single cory.

 

[Menagerie]

I'd love to get another cory, because I had read that they like company.... BUT I also read that they need about 5 gallons of space a piece in terms of territory.

8O I have never seen a cory become territorial and I have in the past kept a lot of bottom dwellers (there was a lot of surface area, but I packed in cories, khulies and plecos for well over a year--lost some during the last couple of moves ). I had always read cories should be in groups of 3+. I think 3 cories in that tank would be fine. There’s nothing like watch a small herd of 10+ cories scouring the bottom of the tank for leftovers, but two more cories will give the other cory the needed company and round out your tank nicely.

 

[lmw80]

I'd love to get another cory, because I had read that they like company.... BUT I also read that they need about 5 gallons of space a piece in terms of territory.

8O I have never seen a cory become territorial and I have in the past kept a lot of bottom dwellers (there was a lot of surface area, but I packed in cories, khulies and plecos for well over a year--lost some during the last couple of moves ). I had always read cories should be in groups of 3+. I think 3 cories in that tank would be fine. There’s nothing like watch a small herd of 10+ cories scouring the bottom of the tank for leftovers, but two more cories will give the other cory the needed company and round out your tank nicely.

I agree, cories ime are not territorial. I have a 20 long and all 3 of my cories hang out in a half tipped over coconut hut for most of the day. Even when I had 3 cories in a 10 gallon they hung out together and never got agressive.

 

[Hypatia]

I agree, cories ime are not territorial. I have a 20 long and all 3 of my cories hang out in a half tipped over coconut hut for most of the day. Even when I had 3 cories in a 10 gallon they hung out together and never got agressive.

Hah! You know, I went searching for the site where I read that they needed 5g/piece or so for teritory and now I can't find it. So I don't know if I misremembered or if someone else got it wrong. after reading several sites and trying to remember it carefully, I think the statment was someone's response on a feedback area of a site and I think it was about breeding them. However, tonight I read that it is good to have several males with one female for breeding, so I am not sure WHAT I read before. And for me the definitive point is this entry on planetcatfish which is my fav site for all things catfish related
http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/callicht/corydora/271_F.PHP
it confirms everything you all are saying....

So I think I am gonna' go get a Panda! My LFS has them now, and I was just kicking myself a few days ago because I got a pepper at the Coperate Pet Superstore instead of waiting on the Pandas at the family owned LFS... they are just lovely! It seems they stay 1.5 to 2" if you get a true Panda (vs similar looking corys) too. Of course my peppered cory is so active all the time compared to the corys at the LFS now and also how they are described on most sites, I can't imagine not having him jaunt across the bottom checking everything out all day.

Hypatia

 

[lmw80]

The easiest way to breed cories is to get a bunch of them. Sexing cories is difficult. It is said that the female is plumper when viewed from above.

 

[fishygurl]

This is DG thing is getting wierd.. Tons of people, including me have been posting about unexplained DG deaths in the past months. You would think it would be bad stock, but all these peopleare speard out all over North America so that seems highley unlikey. My two females died the same way as yours. Hanging out and the top then suddenly dying. My male got a hole in his fin (not fin rot) and a fungusy circle thing on his head then died. Two other peope that i know of have had the same thing happen to them. Its wierd....

Best of luck!