Searched, but still have questions.

[beerguy9]

Background and then I have some questions, forgive me if this is too much in one post, still getting my sea legs on forums. I did search and have read and learned a lot from this site and others, but there is so much to learn, I know I can benefit from the vast amount of expertise out there, and have two great tanks to enjoy as I learn more.

Currently have 29 gal slightly brackish tank with the following.
4 Silver tipped shark cats one 5" and three 3"
4 Zebra Danios (had six, big cat got two)
5 Mickey mouse platys
1 pleco 3"
1 chinese algae eater, maybe 3"

Since the silver tips are growing like crazy, I picked up a 47 gal bowfront to move them to, although that may be too small eventually, I may have to sell them at some point.

On to the questions.

1. Would really enjoy suggestions for stocking the brackish 47 gal? Should I move the Chinese agae eater to this tank as well? not sure on the brackish aspect or if he would outgrow the 29 (and how fast). What are some other good suggestions for this tank? moving the Platys?

2. Would really enjoy suggestions for stocking the 29 gal? I plan on keeping it FW only, no brackish. I would like some unique fish for both aquariums, but nothing out of line as I'm still learning. 29 gal has been setup for about 6 months.

3. Does anyone have any suggestions on placement/setup for an undergravel jet system for the 47 gal? I plan on using the guide from http://cichlid-forum.com/articles/ug_jets.php by Marc Elieson. I was planning on using the 170 he recommends with 3 or 4 jets, just not too sure where to place them for maximum efficiency. I will be using a biowheel as well on this tank.

I would like to get some unique fish for either aquarium, something like gobies, eels, gar/pencil fish, blue lobster etc, but so far, it looks like most of this is out of the question with my setups and experience levels possibly.

Thanks for reading my questions and I appreciate any suggestions/info. Especially if something I'm planning will have negative effects of any sort.

Thanks!!

 

[TCTFish]

Plecos do not like brackish tanks. They are a soft water fish.

Chinese algae eaters attack and prey on fish when they get bigger. Best kept with fast, semi aggressive and aggressive fish. They have the habit of sucking the protect slime coating of other fish. This leaves room for bacterial and fungal infections to set in. they can reach a size of 7" to 9".

The silver tip cat can reach 12". That's a hefty kitty even in a 47 gallon.

The rate fish grow depend on species/lifespan, nutrition and water quality. Under optimum conditions, a fish can reach half its adult size within a couple of years...obviously if the species has a lifespan that's at least 5 years. The longer the lifespan of a species, the longer it will take them to grow. After the first couple of years, the growth rate slows down. It generally take a full life time for a fish to reach it's maximum adult size.

As of the UGJ, I assume this works in conjunction with a UGF??? That I didn't see. If so, I would suggest not to waste time and money and stick with a HOB or canister filter. Looks and sounds like a lot of work for something you can come up with so much easier to set up and deal with. Eventually those pipes should be cleaned because waste debris can build up in them just as the pipes to your tub and sinks do. There may not be waste stuck under the grate, but there just may be enough in the pipes to create nitrate problems somewhere along the line. A set up like this; to make any real comparisons to water quality and such should be observed for at least 4 to 5 years before determining it's long term effectiveness.

If not attached to a UGF, the pipes still should be cleaned periodically.

Brackish fish on the market actually sold out of brackish tanks are hard to find, so keep in mind a long drip acclimation of the fish is advised.

There are many fish suitable for brackish tanks available on the market, however most should be housed in a larger tank...75 or larger. Scats and monos are some of the more popular brackish fish. They are semi aggressive and can get a decent size and need ample room for swimming. Fan dancer and pistol gobies are cool. Pistol gobies are a smaller species whereas the fan dancer gets about 3" to 4". Nice fish. Some gobies however get huge so definitely read up on adult size before purchasing a goby. All gobies will eat whatever they can fit in their mouth, so beware with small fish. There are FW/brackish blennies such as the helicopter blenny and topside river blenny (the top side is a good algae eater...mild tempered too). Helicopter blennies are long and slender, kind of silvery white with a very long spike on the dorsal. They are hyperactive fish and need a long tank for swimming. The topside is short and stout and well suited for smaller tanks. Mollies are a naturally brackish fish and so long as the more aggressive fish are introduced after, even they could do fine with scats and monos. The mollies are more reasonable size for a 29 or 47 gallon. FW/brackish pipefish are VERY sensitive. They should be the most aggressive fish in the tank if they are going to live for any good amount of time. Best kept in roomy natural planted tanks. May require live food. There are also orange chromides if you like to add a splash of color. Water quality must be stable and pristine for these fish. They are sensitive to radical changes in the environment.

Read up on all species of fish you are interested in. Get a good ID book. I like the huge Axlrod atlases and the Baensch aquarium atlases. Make sure you choose brackish fish for the brackish tank and ones with an adult size suitable for the size tank you have.

Other things to keep in mind...

Eels are predatory and should only be kept with fish that are fast and larger. Any animal with large claws such as lobsters can really reap havok on your fish. Lobsters can get a good size and can take down fish with ease. Best kept in tanks by themselves or a deep tank with fast and/or top swimming fish. There should be absolutely no other bottom feeder. They'll eat it. Even well armed catfish cannot escape the lobster's gripping claws.

 

[beerguy9]

(goes off to do more reading.........)

 

[cJw]

Don't be so quick to dismiss the UGJ idea; I thought it was clever and seemed fairly effective. You could e-mail the author and find out how long he's been running it to see if there are problems with collection of waste in the pvc. It certainly seems like the water running through the pvc would be fairly, if not completely, clean.

What am I missing here about the brackish setup? I don't see the reason to go brackish with the livestock list you posted... ?

Catfish get big and mean; beware... as do CAEs (chinese algae eaters)

 

[rich311k]

Silver tipped sharks are brackish. They become almost full marine by adulthood.

 

[beerguy9]

I think the brackish was really for the Silver tips, since like was said, they do turn brackish more and more as they grow. Just trying to accommodate the fish I have in either of the tanks and make everyone happy. Well, and get some other fun fish too.

The undergravel jets would have a sponge filter with a reverse setup, to make sure there is current so stuff won't just fall to the gravel and accumulate. Where I am confused is where to place the jets so the water flows in a beneficial manner, and not against itself with no rhyme nor reason. I will not have an undergravel filter system, just the jets and sponge filter, plus the biowheel hang on. I'll try to email the author for some advice.

I do add about 3 tablespoons total of salt to the 29 gal as a hopefully happy medium for all, everyone seems to be happy with that. I plan on having the 29 gal only fresh, and the 47 slightly brackish, just to keep the cats happy. so maybe full brackish isn't necessary, mollies and such maybe be a good choice for that tank? Continuing to research. Good info already, thanks!

 

[TCTFish]

A good placement for the water to flow is circular. What I do for reefs to prevent dead areas and keep the back water of the tank from staling is have one pump on one side facing the flow of water so it bounces off the center of the back glass. The second pump I face toward the front so the water bounces off the center of the front glass. In some cases, I'll have a third smaller pump creating a sort of upward flow that just barely skims right underneathe the surface of the water.

The best way to measure salinity is to use a hydrometer. Granted fish can deal with some fluctuations of salt, however, it can be stressful if it doesn't remain stable. Check salinity often and top off with freshwater when salinity goes up due to evaporation. Brackish tanks are generally kept between a SG of 1.008 and 1.013.

Brackish fish overall do a lot better in brackish tanks. Even though most will do ok in a FW tank, the fish are healthier and happier in natural habitat. Some even do better in full marine. I remember reading an interesting article about brackish fish and how they should all be considered marine, because for the most part, brackish fish are marine animals that go from marine to brackish (Instead of FW to brackish). This is largely a spawning behavior just as salmon go from marine to fresh (they're the extreme species LOL) to breed, many other marine fish do the same, just not so extreme and generally stop at the brackish point instead of continuing up the rivers to more FW.

One of the most interesting things I've observed with brackish fish going between brackish and fresh is that they seem to have a more mild temperament in brackish than they do in FW. Salt seems to have some sort of 'calming' effect to their aggressive natures. I've largely seen this in scats, monos, and puffers. One of these observations dealt with a batch of monos that I got and stuck in the FW system at the store. They were beating the crap out of each other. This may seem a bit mean, but I took them all out and plunked them straight into a full marine system. Their wounds healed up just fine and they all got along and they were in tanks smaller than the ones in the FW system. Unreal. Brackish puffers kept in FW are super mean to other fish compared to when they are kept in brackish or marine. One example, though green spot puffers really aren't considered brackish, we did have someone trade in one that was fully acclimated to marine. Now these puffers are notorious killers in FW tanks, but this guy was so non shalont with it's marine tank mates. I was amazed!!

It's fully up to you if you want a brackish tank. I feel the brackish tank is largely ignored in the aquarium hobby, yet yields some of the most interesting aquatic critters. Not that these things are commonly available on the market, but there are even sponges and corals that thrive in such an environment. Amazing, huh? There is a lake near or in Russia that have these sponges and corals. I've also heard of these things growing in the African Rift Lakes.

 

[beerguy9]

A good placement for the water to flow is circular.

(47 gal bow front) I have a 170 Reverse Flow running under the gravel for water flow. I have 4 outlets and am moving the water in a counter-clockwise direction. With 4 outlets, it is very subtle flow, but seems to be working very well. Hopefully it will help with waste, and I have an Emperor 400 dual BioWheel for filtration that seems strong.

Currently this tank houses 4 Zebra Danios and 1 Chinese Algae Eater. All indications are the the cycle is almost complete is pretty stable.

My plans for this tank are the 4 Silver Tips and a number of Platies, more inhabitants to be determined.

(29 gal) Penguin 170 Biowheel currently houses the Silver Tips, Platies, and Common Pleco. Plans for this tank are 6 Zebra Danios, Pleco, a school of Tetras, and a few yet to be identified mid-level fish. Also, considering a school of Cory Cats. Any thoughts would be appreciated since the list isn't final and don't want to overstock.

One of the most interesting things I've observed with brackish fish going between brackish and fresh is that they seem to have a more mild temperament in brackish than they do in FW. Salt seems to have some sort of 'calming' effect to their aggressive natures.

Interestingly enough, my wife did a water change and neglected to put salt in like I do, and the Silver Tips went on patrol, ate a Zebra Danio and generally chased other fish in the tank at all levels. Once I found out the 'error' and replaced the missing salt, they calmed right down so I believe you are on to something there.

It's fully up to you if you want a brackish tank. I feel the brackish tank is largely ignored in the aquarium hobby, yet yields some of the most interesting aquatic critters. Not that these things are commonly available on the market, but there are even sponges and corals that thrive in such an environment.

I am planning on using the 47 gal for a brackish tank because I think it will be more of a challenge/unique, and am very interested in the sponges and corals for this environment down the road. Do you have any links for sponges & coral, or brackish tank sites? I have searched but so far have come up with nothing. Additionally, what types of plants could I keep in this tank? It is my understanding that most of the ones I can get at my LFS will eventually wilt and die from the added salt.

Thanks for the info so far!

 

[beerguy9]

One more thing, can I mix the different types of Cory Cats and have them live together happily?

Thanks!

 

[TCTFish]

Cory cats like to be in schools of their own kind. The little pandas seem to school pretty tight. It also looks better when you have a group of the same kind of fish together instead of a bunch of different species together. Gives the overall appearance of the tank a certain balance that's more pleasant to stare at. If you want different species, then get at least three per so each have their own buddies. They do hang out together, but they do seem to prefer their won kind. It's that defense mechanism. There's a lot in a school that look identical causing mass confusion to a predator. When they are all different, it's harder not to stand out from the crowd. You do know that cory cats should not be kept in a brackish tank, right? Even though some have successfully been acclimated to brackish, the majority do not do well at all. They are a soft water fish...just as plecos are. They will live longer in softwater than they would in brackish.

Sponges and coral suited for a brackish tank are so rare and I do believe the lake in Russia is protected. Whether available or not, it may be best to leave these environments alone and not start exploiting them for these unique creatures. The Rift Lakes in Africa are under 'attack' so to speak. With all the conflicts going on in Africa, even the fish in these lakes have a questionable future. There are spent artillary munitions and dead bodies polluting the lakes. These lakes also have recently been tapped into by natives to use for irrigation. Lake Victoria is off limits to collectors and has been for years. It'd be nice for these things to stay in place so there would be room for collection, but the way people treat the environment, this possibility is bleek. There are some brackish sponges and coral right here in the USA, but again pollution makes it a bleek future for any of it to be available for private keeping. Here's a link to one of them....

http://www.chesapeakebay.net/redbeard.htm

It may be possible to acclimate some species of marine sponge to a brackish environment. You would have to look into areas of marine water that are close to brackish areas for any sponge and coral species that may actually be found in both. Hawaii may be a good place to start looking. Mangroves of SE Asia would be another good area to look.

Finding anything on the web (at least through Google) doesn't produce much for results.

Plants that would do ok in brackish water would be Mangroves, Java moss, Java ferns, and Anubias species of plants that I know of. Choice is limited, but better than nothing. You can always try macro algae commonly kept in marine tanks. If Caulerpa is legal where you live, that would be a good species to do that with. They have been found here in California in the lagoons doing a bit too well. About 9 species have been restricted here since. They overgrew in the lagoons, choking off available oxygen to anything else alive. Fish were sufficating and dying and just made a mess. Of course it's easier for Fish and Game to blame the aquarium industry, but here it's all too easy for this algae to come in on people's boats traveling from Mexico. No one is allowed to possess it at all. We're suppose to bury it or burn it if it comes on live rock. Insane!!

 

[beerguy9]

I think I omitted some details in my plans, yeah, the Corys would be for the 29 gal tank that will be FW only, also the pleco will remain in the 29 which has some salt in it now, but isn't brackish. I will lower the salinity after I move the Silver Tips with PWC's over a couple of weeks, then get some Corys. I think the 29 gals SG is at about 1.004 - 1.005, so salty, but not brackish, everyone seems to be happy now and look very healthy.


Thanks for the info on Brackish coral/sponges and plants. I think it's good for people to read posts like that to make sure it's appreciated that; there are areas that have been exploited and/or are in danger, and it's irresponsible to 'throw away' living creatures from our tanks. We all hate it when a snakehead or piranha are caught in an inland lake, it gives everyone in the hobby a bad name and sets the stage for increased and unnecessary legislation. (well, necessary due to ignorant individuals, unnecessary overall)I think it also highlights that legislation oftentimes misdirects efforts and distorts issues.

Thanks!

 

[TCTFish]

Cool. California is one of the more restrictive states when it comes to Fish and Game. Things illegal that shouldn't be and those that aren't should be. The protection only goes so far. I am not a fan of Fish and Game. I believe they are just as much of a threat to wildlife as the people they're out to catch and prosecute.

The store I work for have gotten visits from Fish and Game. I had an interesting conversation once with an officer who was there on formal business and in uniform (I'm not scared of these guys). After he got to see our permits for a species that's only available under permit (someone tried to squeal on us), I asked him what we should do with the native catfish people bring in or come in with feeder fish. We're suppose to kill them by law. He did explain as an example of how extreme these laws go...that if he were to pull someone over a block away from a lake they just caught a bucket of catfish in, the person would be cited and the catfish killed. They are not allowed back in the lake they came out of by law. That ticks me off and I told him flat out that I would not kill an animal without medical reason to do so and will continue finding private homes for these fish. The intentions to protect the environment are the plus side of Fish and Game, but their methods sometimes can prove just as disasterous, IMO.

An incident that's been going on in the South (in the Gulf) are what they call a 'plague' of frogs coming from Cuba or some island near there. Hurricanes have brought them over instead of people in this case, but they're still trying to erradicate these frogs. I can understand controlling non native species populations when people are the ones who introduce these animals into the environment, but not when it's nature's decision to do so. There's certainly need for reform within Fish and Game.

California division of EPA on a more happier note has just recently activated a new branch of their agency specifically to breed marine fish for wild release. This is something I had predicted quite a few years ago after spending the time to really learn about what's up in marine conservation and what the problems are. What I got out of it, if LFS are going to have a future in business selling marine animals, it may be a good idea to hook up with a research center to donate time, space, and/or money for such programs so these animals can remain available for the private tank in their stores. Breeding programs can supply not just wild stock, but aquarium stock too...and it's those in the aquarium industry that know how to keep these animals alive in order for them to breed. For more serious aquarists and future marine biologists, this may be a good direction to head in. This is just the beginning of something that has been stated by officials will become high priority within EPA and other federal agencies. We've already lost two thirds of our marine resources and mostly due to large scale commercial fishing (food fish). The threat of pollution is there, but doesn't seem to be as great as the depletion of fish populations from overfishing.

With this said, treating a fish (or any live animal at that) as a throw away commodity is just absolutely wrong even when done within the demands of written law.

Thanks for letting me 'vent' on your thread

 

[beerguy9]

With this said, treating a fish (or any live animal at that) as a throw away commodity is just absolutely wrong even when done within the demands of written law.

Thanks for letting me 'vent' on your thread

No problem hopefully people will read it and think about it. I think there are a lot of people out there who don't want to be bothered with responsibility, aquarium keeping or otherwise.

Ok, back to the questions.

What are recommendations for the quietest air pump.

Can I put my air pump on a timer to run only from, say, 4 am until 8-9 pm? I have the 29g tank in my room and want to minimize the noise if possible. A quiet pump may do the trick but if I could turn it off on this schedule that would be nice. I want to make sure that the inhabitants don't need it on all of the time, hoping the Penguin Biowheel will create enough oxygen? I will leave it on if necessary, just looking for options.

Thanks for all of the info so far

 

[TCTFish]

Rena air pumps are perhaps the quietest pumps I've ever come across. They are a bit more costly, but well worth it when you want silence. They are also fairly strong pumps. Well made. You wouldn't need to put this on a timer, but you can plug it into a timer if you still choose. Seriously, whenever I plug these in, I have to put my finger to the piston to see if it is on. They are THAT quiet. No more rolling sock after sock after sock to try to get some sleep!!...LOL.

http://www.aquariumpharm.com/airpumps.html

 

[beerguy9]

Ok, went and bought one of the Rena pumps, should be here early next week.

It appears that my Silver Tips have quite the appetite for Platies and Danios, they've eaten 6 Danios and 2 Platies so far. I know that eventually they will outgrow the 47 g tank, maybe I should start looking for a home for them now. For people that have sold fish, how did you go about doing it? I can take them to the LFS, but there is only one in the area that I would trust, and it would depend on their need for these cats. Has anyone sold them on Ebay, or through the paper with any luck?

fwiw, my albino cories are pretty entertaining (29g), they are all over the place darting around and up to the surface. They also have no problem coming to the surface to feed, I'm sure this is common but do others have cories eating from the surface? I can see why people like them so much.

Thanks!

 

[TCTFish]

The silver tips will eat anything they can grab and swallow, so if it can fit in its mouth, it'll eventually become lunch. Silver tip cats are generally always welcomed as trades at an LFS. To sell them elsewhere such as online would mean you would need the proper shipping materials to mail them. Several large fish bags lined within each other (about three of four to prevent them from poking holes through all of them and lose water). They must be filled with oxygen instead of just air and should be shipped in a styro box. It'd be less stressing on the fish if it were just traded at your LFS.

There are people who do trade and sell fish here at AA. Check it out under the barter/trade threads.

 

[Macrosill]

The UGJ idea looks pretty cool. It is nothing like an UGF. Two very different things. I would be a little hesitant about the visibly jets. I guess they could be disquised in some manner. Go for it and let us know how it works for you. If you find you dont like it you can just pull it off the bottom, if it is constructed like the example in your link.

Good Luck,
Brian

 

[beerguy9]

Ok, I'm back and have made a couple of changes.

After the Silver Tips ate the Zebra Danios and all but one of the MM Platies, it was time so they have found a new home at the LFS, looks to be a good one, not the Petsmart or anything. The 46 g tank is now FW.

I replaced them with 8 Lamp Eye Tetras, 5 Blue Platies, and still have the one MM Platy and Chinese Algae Eater. I am planning on adding the following over the next month or so; 4 more MM Platies since she needs some friends, and possibly 4-5 Kuhli Loaches and 2 Dwarf Blue Gouramis. Any thoughts on these additions?

Also, I swapped out the 170 pump I had for a Rio 1700 because when I made the jets, I didn't crimp them down enough so they are pretty big. I have much better flow now, but it is louder and has raised the temp in the tank by 3 degrees and is constant now. If you look at the article for the UGJ, you can see he really crimped the jets down, maybe at some point I will take it out and redo it, but that is a while down the road.

I have attached a very bad drawing of the 4 jets I put in, and it seems to create good flow now, but I would have done some things different if I were to do it over. First thing is to crimp the jets like I said above, the second is to redesign it so the first jet isn’t the strongest. If you look at the picture you can see it’s a straight shot to the first jet, while the other 3 get indirect, and therefore less powerful, flow. The 1700 pump’s sponge filter thing fits right inside the 170’s, making it easy to get on and off and works perfectly.

As far as the jets go, they are almost entirely covered up but you can see them from above, putting a plant or lava rock in front of them will hide them perfectly. As an aside, I could not find the 30 degree pvc bends, so I used 45 degree instead. I used no glue and just pressure fit the whole thing together, assuming that there would be ‘opportunities’ and I would redo it at some point.

Also as an update on the 29 gal, the Rena pump should be here today, to hopefully quiet it down, and I have the following in it seemingly content as can be; 6 Albino Cory Cats, 5 Blue Platies, 5 Sunburst Platies, 3 Black Skirt Tetras, and a Pleco. Water is rock solid and looks great.

Thanks and looking forward to comments.

 

[beerguy9]

xx

 

[TCTFish]

Sounds pretty good on the selection of fish. Careful with the platies though. They can be just as prolific as any other livebearer. If you have a mix of male and female well...expect many more...LOL. You'll still want to oust out the chinese algae eater too before it starts to go after the fish.