Starting Over - weird numbers

[ghostie]

O.k., I've started over (long story how).

I have an 18 gal. tall (with a 10 gal. footprint) and have filled the tank with R/O water.

I have 3 really small platies in the tank and they have been in there since 6/7.

My readings are as follows:

Ammonia Nitrite Nitrate
6/8 0 0 0
6/10 0 0 0

Weird, huh? I know there's a lot of water to fish, but I would have expected at least some reading of some time? When I put the fish in, per the LFS, I put in a bottle of Fritzyme. (I was suspicious that live bacteria could live and not be refrigerated, but when I opened the bottle, it smelled pretty bad, so I figured there must be some bacteria doing something in there).

Do I just have too much water to fish to even start the cycle? I am skeptical of the claim by the LFS that I will cycle in a day.

Fish seem great - active, eating well, etc.

I'm using the AP Master test kit, so I don't think it's my testing materials.

Thoughts?

P.S., I forgot to add that I'm using a Rena XP1 Cannister filter - perhaps I have too much filtration?

 

[tdalessa01]

I don't understand what's going on? First of all you started over. What do you mean by starting over? Did you use substrate that was from a cycled tank, filter media, etc...

 

[ghostie]

Had a 10 gal. tank - last fish of 2 years died the day before we left on vacation, - went on vacation for 2 weeks - didn't think about tank for another week.

Decided to get a marginally bigger tank (more water = less maintenance?)

Set up 18 gallon - completely new gravel, new cannister filter, same lights and hood, new R/O water.

I didn't port anything over from the 10 gal. because I figured that after 3 weeks, any useful bacteria would be dead.

 

[jcarlilesiu]

you have only had this brand new fresh aquarium up and running for a couple days max, you more than likely won't see a reading yet, especially with the light bio-load. Give it a few more days and you should see ammonia creeping up on ya

 

[ghostie]

O.k. - it's still strange

here are the numbers so far:


Ammonia Nitrite Nitrate
6/8 0 0 0
6/10 0 0 0
6/12 0 0 0
6/14 0 0 0
6/16 0 0 0
6/18 0 0 0

weird, no? Fish seem to be doing great - I only feed them a very small amount every day. Perhaps, I should up the feedings or put in more fish?

I did put in a bottle of Fritzyme freshwater (the LFS said it was the same as bio-spira (and the bio-spira they had was of an unknown package date (probably a long time ago))

What do you all think?

 

[SCFatz]

I think you have yet to start the cycle.Low biolaod is the reason for the slow start I imagine.

I'd suggest just waiting,you will get some ammonia readings eventually.

I would not add any more fish.Feeding a little more won't hurt your situation and may help get things started....but don't over do it....just a small increase over what you are doing now will be a step in the right direction.

 

[ghostie]

It's just weird that it's been almost two weeks and I've done one 25% water change.

In those two weeks, I know the little guys have been pooping and stuff and I don't think they eat all the food (I have granules and some of it falls down to the gravel before they can get to it).

Weird, weird weird....

 

[Lonewolfblue]

One thing, your tank is not cycled. You are going to see a cycle starting to occur.

Also, R/O water? 100%? Not a good thing. Your fish will start out looking good, but without the necessary minerals and electrolytes in tap water, the fish will not last. Also, with R/O, you will have no buffering capacity, and when your tank starts cycling, you are going to see major ph swings that will probably take out all your fish. Not a good idea IMO.

Fritz-Zyme is not Bio-Spira. It's comparable to Cycle, which is useless. If you want a better alternative, see if they have Stress-Zyme. That's the only other product that I've had experienced success with, although not instantly like you can with Bio-Spira.

 

[ghostie]

that 25% water change I did was with tap water. I can do another one. I was thinking of doing another 25% water change with just tap water and from there forward doing water changes with 1/2 tap water and 1/2 R/O - what do you think?

 

[Lonewolfblue]

Check your gh and kh after the water change and see where you stand.

 

[TomK2]

If you are lucky, you will never see any ammonia or nitrite, and after 6 or seven weeks nitrate will appear. I have done this several times with my "low bioload" approach to cycling with fish. Don't add any more fish! No real need to do water changes if ammonia and nitrite are zero, but you need some tap water to add micronutrients and minerals to the RO water. Enjoy the fish, be secure in your knowledge that they are adding ammonia to the tank, and congradulate yourself for using a low enough bioload that the rise in ammonia is being paced by the bacterial growth. Yes, you can establish a biofilter with ammonia and nitrite levels less than 0.25 ppm! For my wordy essay on the subject, check out:

http://home.comcast.net/~tomstank/tomstank_files/page0017.htm

 

[ghostie]

Update: Here are the numbers:

Ammonia Nitrite Nitrate
6/8 0 0 0
6/10 0 0 0
6/12 0 0 0
6/14 0 0 0
6/16 0 0 0
6/18 0 0 0
6/20 0 0 0
6/22 0 0 0
6/24 0 0 0
6/26 0 0 0
6/29 0 0 0

I may be hallucinating - on the last two tests, I could have sworn that the color on the Nitrate card may have shown an increase in Nitrates, but it just may be wishful thinking on my part. Well, it's been 3 weeks with fish and still no detectable amounts.

Weird...

I would really like to add more fish, but I'll hold off until I can confirm some nitrates.

definitely weird.

 

[SCFatz]

At this point I would think one of two things about this situation.

Either when Tom says:

If you are lucky, you will never see any ammonia or nitrite, and after 6 or seven weeks nitrate will appear.

He is very much right and you are in good shape.....(which is what I think)...OR
Your test kit is out of whack....take some water into a lfs and ask to have it checked just to confirm your kit is on the mark.If it is then you are golden and waiting it out is the only thing to do imo.

 

[SCFatz]

From the article that Tom linked:

Phosphate is also required for Nitrosomonas, and unless you are using distilled or reverse osmosis water, it should be present in enough quantities.

From the intial post in this thread:

filled the tank with R/O water

Perhaps this in the problem?Maybe?...not really sure at all,but perhaps changing some water will get it done...Can't see what it would hurt.

Edit:Come to think of it,it does not explain the O ppm ammonnia at all,but it seems it will help the bacteria develope if some measure of phosphate is present in the tank.


Tom that is one one wordy article!!(I read every one)Nicely done!!

 

[TomK2]

Hang in there ghostie. You have fish, therefore you have ammonia production. The fact that you can't see it means that your ammonia production is low enough so that the bacteria can grow and keep up with it. The fact that it took 40 days for me to see 5 ppm of nitrate would indicate an average ammonia production of 0.125 ppm per day. Sure, at some point in this process the bacteria can probably handle a bit more, but there is no way of knowing, and the penalty for being wrong is a week or so of frequent water changes and a guilty concience.

But don't throw out your patience now, you are just 2 to three weeks away from independently verifying my findings and conclusions! And that is something I would love to see, and be able to add to my web page. Hang in there!

Once you see the nitrates, you will be able to add stock weekly, and after a week or so of no problems, you will be able to add larger numbers each week too. Definitely worth the wait.

 

[ghostie]

All right. I'm going to credit the Rena XP1 cannister filter which allegedly moves 250 gallons per hour. I thought it may be too much for my little 18 gal. tank, but decided on it because it would be quieter and hopefully less maintenance. Perhaps I was right?

I did at one point change approximately 30-40% of the water and replaced with regular tap water.

Who knows? fish seem happy, I don't have to do water changes. I'm not complaining. Just head scratching. :?

 

[dskidmore]

How old is your test kit? I had a faulty nitrate kit that showed the nitrates slowly decreasing to 0 when they really wern't.

Are there any plants in this tank?

Unless the test kits are bad, you're on a really good track for cycling with fish.

 

[ghostie]

I just bought the test kit on the date of the first test, so say, June 2006.

Only plastic plants in the tank.

 

[TomK2]

Oh, and just in case all that negative testing is getting tiresome for you, you can spread out your testing a bit. During the first few weeks, I did not test for nitrate (other than an initial test) because I knew it wouldn't be there. After two weeks, I stopped testing for ammonia every day because I knew that if it were going to spike, it would have done so by now. Thus, after two weeks, I typically did an ammonia test one day, a nitrite test the next, and about every third day I would do a nitrate test. There is no harm in doing all three test each day. But if you are finding it more tedious than interesting, you can spread them out at this point. From your data points above being every two days, I suspect you have figured this out already?

 

[ghostie]

O.k., I am still getting negative tests.

I'm starting to notice little spots of algae. In the intake and out take tubes of the cannister filter, there are lots of brown spots.

On the inside glass, I noticed some spots of algae (not sure what color), but it seems a bit stringy.

I have a lot of flow in this setup, so it could be diatoms that are being stretched out.

I'm going to cut back on the feedings a bit.

I'm just shocked that I still don't have an ammonia or nitrite spike.

Hopefully, cutting back on the feedings will hold me over until I finish cycling and can introduce some otos.

BTW, how many otos do I need for them to be happy?