The LFS condemned fishless cycling!
- Thread starter ryorgason
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Angel.Zero
Aquarium Advice Activist
Plants "use" ammonia yes, but they don't soak it up like a sponge and it won't help in cycling your tank...
My point being is joe shcmoe goes to his lfs and they tell him buy a bunch of plants to "soak" up the ammonia so joe buys a pleco or maby some other plant eating fish a whole bunch of plant, fertalizer, and wait... he can't afford those $250 "special" lights and the onlt co2 kit the lfs is for a 10g and joe just bought a 40g. goes home and sets up his tank, 2 weeks later wonders why his fish and plants keep dying and his tank water is green.
I have done tests on my own tanks in recording things like ammonia, nitrate, and nitrite levels in differant situations. a single plant will only use a certian amount of ammonia and nitrate, from the differant records that I kept plants strugled to survive in a cycling tank due to the fluctuations in nutrients sources and had a less then significant effect on ammonia. my 55g maintains a 10ppm of nitrate and 0 ppm of ammonia and nitrite. the 0 ppm has nothing to do with my plants, it has to do with bacteria.
I'll end my mini-rant with this one thought... would you tell someone they don't need any kind of filtration because they have a planted tank?
My point being is joe shcmoe goes to his lfs and they tell him buy a bunch of plants to "soak" up the ammonia so joe buys a pleco or maby some other plant eating fish a whole bunch of plant, fertalizer, and wait... he can't afford those $250 "special" lights and the onlt co2 kit the lfs is for a 10g and joe just bought a 40g. goes home and sets up his tank, 2 weeks later wonders why his fish and plants keep dying and his tank water is green.
I have done tests on my own tanks in recording things like ammonia, nitrate, and nitrite levels in differant situations. a single plant will only use a certian amount of ammonia and nitrate, from the differant records that I kept plants strugled to survive in a cycling tank due to the fluctuations in nutrients sources and had a less then significant effect on ammonia. my 55g maintains a 10ppm of nitrate and 0 ppm of ammonia and nitrite. the 0 ppm has nothing to do with my plants, it has to do with bacteria.
I'll end my mini-rant with this one thought... would you tell someone they don't need any kind of filtration because they have a planted tank?
i'm sorry if i evoked a rant Angel.Zero. but i just wanted to point out the fact - which is indeed true.
i'm yet to find a store that recommends cycling using a planted tank. its usually after maintaining plants for a while that people realize the possibility. i've done it, and i'm sure many others have. if you have doubts, please visit chuck gadd's website (http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/). i'm not sure someone starting off would be able to pull this off, though with proper guidance it is possible.
the fluctuating nutrient sources can be taken care of by regular fertilization.
filtration is still needed for a variety of reasons - co2 (for plants) and o2 distribution, proper nutrient dispersion, preventing dead spots (which cater to BBA), and so on.
i'm yet to find a store that recommends cycling using a planted tank. its usually after maintaining plants for a while that people realize the possibility. i've done it, and i'm sure many others have. if you have doubts, please visit chuck gadd's website (http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/). i'm not sure someone starting off would be able to pull this off, though with proper guidance it is possible.
the fluctuating nutrient sources can be taken care of by regular fertilization.
filtration is still needed for a variety of reasons - co2 (for plants) and o2 distribution, proper nutrient dispersion, preventing dead spots (which cater to BBA), and so on.
Wizzard~Of~Ozz
Aquarium Advice Addict
I have never cycled a tank, My first tank was a 20Gal that was already cycled, I moved 2 handfuls of substrate, fish and the Tetra Whisper 30 to the 75 and added a Whisper 60.. Never looked back, gradually increased the load. Moved to a 120Gal and just moved the filters over (not using HOB anymore) and suffered 0 cycle, and 0 losses from the move.. (and I moved no substrate to the 120Gal, just driftwood and I just moved them with a net, never floated or acclimated them).
As with everything in life, there are zealots on each side of the fence. Truth is, if done correctly neither is more or less harmful to the fish.. I can argue each way, but why? if it works for you and it works for the fish, then why bother arguing at all.
As with everything in life, there are zealots on each side of the fence. Truth is, if done correctly neither is more or less harmful to the fish.. I can argue each way, but why? if it works for you and it works for the fish, then why bother arguing at all.
Fish Kid
Aquarium Advice Regular
sorry dont mean to "just drag on the subject" by adding yet another reply to this long list..... but i STRONGLY agree with what wizzard of ozz said.... (I know i have around 10 posts on this site) but please dont hold it against me as i am accualy very knolegible on the topic of tropical fish........ anyway just saying both fishless and w/fish cycling work JUST FINE and i really dont understand what all the controversy is over.. i have done both and dont see anything wrong with it ~as long as you know what your doing~ JMO
Sorry for keeping this tangent going.
How do you know it has 'nothing' to do with your plants? NH3/NH4 uptake is faster then NO3 uptake by the plants.
http://www.aquabotanic.com/plants_and_biological_filtration.htm
Granted, if you are not adding any NO3, then the bacteria is converting 'some' of the NH3/NH4, but you still don't know how much of the NH3/NH4 the plants are using.
Yes, I would tell someone that has a planted tank (under some conditions) that they don't need filtration besides the plants. There are many people that keep smaller planted tanks without any mechanical filtration.
The plants also provide a greater surface area for bacteria to grow.
Angel.Zero said:
How do you know it has 'nothing' to do with your plants? NH3/NH4 uptake is faster then NO3 uptake by the plants.
http://www.aquabotanic.com/plants_and_biological_filtration.htm
Granted, if you are not adding any NO3, then the bacteria is converting 'some' of the NH3/NH4, but you still don't know how much of the NH3/NH4 the plants are using.
Angel.Zero said:
Yes, I would tell someone that has a planted tank (under some conditions) that they don't need filtration besides the plants. There are many people that keep smaller planted tanks without any mechanical filtration.
The plants also provide a greater surface area for bacteria to grow.
Fish Kid
Aquarium Advice Regular
thank you for pointing out that last quote!! 
7Enigma
Aquarium Advice Addict
Angel.Zero said:
If the tank is heavily planted and contains some fast growers, has adequate lighting (>2wpg), CO2 injection (either DIY or pressurized), and is not highly stocked, then yes I would.
Many people also have "Dutch" tanks which do not use any form of filtration. These are generally low light, LOW bioload, and are densely planted. Some of these don't even do regular water changes!
For a beginner of course its not recommended, but there is no HOB filter in the wild.
imcgary said:
Maybe in a perfect world that would be great, but the fact is using that product is hit or miss. If it was stored properly, in the refreg and never warmed up, then you will not have a problem. Now for those who add a FULL fish load and the Bio spira doesn't work, now what? You are in for daily water changes and still may run the risk of NH3 damage or fish death.
7Enigma
Aquarium Advice Addict
rkilling1 said:
Exactly. That's why I always recommend to people using Biospira to still do a FC. Have some ammonia on hand to see if the Biospira is actually active and converting the ammonia. Then if it works, get your fish stock, if not, you don't have to deal with the PWC's.
Fishyfanatic
Aquarium Advice Addict
I agree. Bio-Spira does not work all of the time. It can be warmed up during transit from the manufacturer to the lfs. Or the lfs can keep it boxed up for too long and it can warm up. Or even on the way home it can become too warm. Bio-Spira is not an absolute cycle. It can also be very expensive, depending on the tank size. A bottle of ammonia costs $4.
