Thoughts on NOT adding water from store to tank with new fish?

[JohnRoscoe]

OP here, if I could start this thread over again, I'd ask how people introduce new fish from the LFS into a typical freshwater tank. Lots of good ideas here, but I wonder if there is a modern "standard" method? It's obvious to me that the floating bag method I grew up with isn't as common now as I'd assumed.

 

[dalto]

OP here, if I could start this thread over again, I'd ask how people introduce new fish from the LFS into a typical freshwater tank. Lots of good ideas here, but I wonder if there is a modern "standard" method? It's obvious to me that the floating bag method I grew up with isn't as common now as I'd assumed.

Clearly there is not a single method that is universally accepted. Here is an excerpt from something I wrote a few years ago. It was unfinished so it may not be totally proof-read but it should provide an overview.

There are a few different ways acclimation is typically accomplished:

1. Floating the bag
The common method of acclimation recommended by many stores and long time aquarists is to float the bag of fish in the tank for a set period of time. This will cause the temperature in the bag to gradually normalize with the temperature in the tank.

Pros:

• It is easy.

Cons:

• If you forget to turn the lights off the heat from the lights can fry the fish.
• Since you are floating the bag in your tank water contaminants from the original source of the fish can enter your water. These include everything from snail eggs to disease.
• The whole time the bag is floating the fish are generating ammonia and using up their supply of oxygen.
• Either the water level needs to be lowered or the lids needs to be left open or removed. If your fish like to jump the latter could be a problem.
  
• Perhaps most importantly, you are only normalizing temperature and not any of the other water parameters.

2. Drip Acclimation
With drip acclimation you slowly drip water from the tank into the water the fish originate from. This is typically done with a piece of airline tubing and a valve. Once the water reaches a given percentage of tank water you net the fish out the container and put them in the tank.

Pros:

• It is definitely the most gradual method.
• It acclimates the fish to all elements of the new water except temperature in some circumstances.

Cons:

• It involves the most work, especially if you need to acclimate a bunch of fish from different sources at once.
• In a lot of cases the temperature will not rise to the correct amount because the water in the drip tube cools.
• When done slowly, you are leaving the fish to sit in their own ammonia for a substantial amount of time.

I have drip acclimated a lot of fish over the time I have been keeping fish and honestly I am not a huge supporter of it except in specific conditions where you have highly sensitive fish that require exceptionally slow acclimation. Also, you need to ensure you have a plan for dealing with ammonia here. The most common solution is use an ammonia binder like Prime.

3. Incremental water additions
This method is a simpler version of drip acclimation. Here you place fish and a portion of the source water in a container. You then add water from the tank on a fixed schedule. For example, you could add 25% of the original water volume every 15 minutes. Do this 6 times and the water should be 75% tank water. You can make this as aggressive or as gradual as you feel appropriate. For example you could add 10% every 5 minutes if you wanted.

Pros:

• Relatively easy
• It acclimates the fish to all elements of the new water
• It keeps the water well oxygenated and generally does a good job of maintaining the temperature of the water

Cons:

• It is less gradual than the drip method

#3 is the method I use the most often. For most fish I add a third of the original water in every 15 minutes 3 times. For sensitive fish, I go a little slower.

Regardless of which method you use the important thing is to find a balance between the potential damage from staying in the bag and the damage caused by not acclimating or acclimating too quickly.

 

[JohnRoscoe]

Thank you, that's a very helpful post. One question- in the the third method, how do you move the fish into the tank?

 

[dalto]

Thank you, that's a very helpful post. One question- in the the third method, how do you move the fish into the tank?

Net them out, same as the second method.

In thinking about it, I suppose there is a fourth choice. You could simply not acclimate them at all.

 

[Andy Sager]

To the OP, the only standard answer can be to slowly acclimate new fish to the new water in the tank. The HOW is debatable and can differ by fish types (both freshwater and saltwater) but the bottom line is the slower the better. What everybody here has added is just the different methods for doing this. You can create some problems by bag acclimating the wrong way. You can create problems if you drip acclimate the wrong way so all these different methods have to be done correctly in order to be the most effective. Common problem bag acclimating: suffocation (not enough oxygen in the water in the bag so the fish is stressed) Common problem drip acclimating: Too fast or too slow a drip. ( The fish gets stressed.)
But one factor nobody seemed to bring up is that while traveling in a bag, whether from the local LFS or from shipping, the fish pollute the water in the bag. WHY, for the love of whomever you believe in, would you want to add that polluted water into your tanks? That's the first part. Next, if the place uses new water for bagging or shipping, disease spreading issues are not going to be a big problem but if that water comes from the display tank.......you are just asking for trouble by adding it to your tank. ( Call it insider info from an insider ) It's not a good idea, it's never been a good idea and until they develop disease free, pollution free fish, it will never be a good idea. (IMHO to be politically correct. )

As for BBradbury's success with his method, I would have to believe that it's more luck that nothing bad has come from this method. I trump his/her 10 years of experience with 40 more years and know that is a disaster looking for a place to happen. The store his/her fish come from may be on par with a better quality store but we all don;t have that at our disposal so following this may not work for YOU while working for BB. If you stay in the hobby long enough, you will fight disease, it's inevitable. Especially with the decline of fish quality and quality fish stores. I never used to qt my freshwater fish either but now do because of what I've seen and know. It's cheaper to QT than to medicate or replace an entire fish stock. The choice , of course, is yours.

Hope this helps

 

[PNWaquarist]

As for BBradbury's success with his method, I would have to believe that it's more luck that nothing bad has come from this method. I trump his/her 10 years of experience with 40 more years and know that is a disaster looking for a place to happen. The store his/her fish come from may be on par with a better quality store but we all don;t have that at our disposal so following this may not work for YOU while working for BB. If you stay in the hobby long enough, you will fight disease, it's inevitable. Especially with the decline of fish quality and quality fish stores. I never used to qt my freshwater fish either but now do because of what I've seen and know. It's cheaper to QT than to medicate or replace an entire fish stock. The choice , of course, is yours.

Not to mention that even a good LFS occasionally gets diseased stock from a sloppy or simply unlucky supplier.

I don't have a quarantine tank either, but I would never tell others that it's not important. I hope to get one set up before my luck runs out.

 

[Coyne]

Im having a difficult time believing that fish sitting either in the original bag or in a container (in the case of drip acclimation) during the acclimation process would produce enough ammonia to be problematic, ie more than .25ppm.
BUT, I dont actually know how much ammonia can be produced in that amount of time (say an hour or two... three max).
It would be an interesting experiment though. Im not sure when I'll be getting more fish, but when I do Im going to try to remember to find out. Maybe test the water when I first get home to see where Im starting at, and then again every hour to see if there is a noticeable increase.

It also seems to me that snail eggs are attached to something (plants, decor, substrate, etc) and not floating about in the water column. Not sure how they would then get stuck to the exterior of the bag, but I suppose its not so completely outside the realm of what is possible either. It feels a bit like overkill to me, but to each their own. At least its not harmful advice.

 

[Coyne]

1. Floating the bag
The common method of acclimation recommended by many stores and long time aquarists is to float the bag of fish in the tank for a set period of time. This will cause the temperature in the bag to gradually normalize with the temperature in the tank.

Pros:

• It is easy.

Cons:

• If you forget to turn the lights off the heat from the lights can fry the fish.
• Since you are floating the bag in your tank water contaminants from the original source of the fish can enter your water. These include everything from snail eggs to disease.
• The whole time the bag is floating the fish are generating ammonia and using up their supply of oxygen.
• Either the water level needs to be lowered or the lids needs to be left open or removed. If your fish like to jump the latter could be a problem.
  
• Perhaps most importantly, you are only normalizing temperature and not any of the other water parameters.

• 
  
  I just wanted to touch on a couple points.
  Firstly, the bag is meant to be open while its floating, so running out of oxygen isnt really an issue.
  Second, this method also includes gradually removing an amount of bag water and replacing it with tank water. For example, removing 1/4 cup of bag water and replacing it with 1/4 cup tank water every 5 minutes. This is what normalizes the fish to the tank waters chemistry. Its sort of like drip acclimating, but more hands one and not as slow and gradual.
  
  The part about leaving the lights on and frying the fish speaks more about problems with individual intelligence than it does about the process itself.

 

[dalto]

Im having a difficult time believing that fish sitting either in the original bag or in a container (in the case of drip acclimation) during the acclimation process would produce enough ammonia to be problematic, ie more than .25ppm.
BUT, I dont actually know how much ammonia can be produced in that amount of time (say an hour or two... three max).

There are obviously two factors here. The size/output of the fish in comparison to the amount of water and the length of time the fish has been in a bag.

For the first point, it is more an issue with large fish as typically people focus on maximizing the amount of air in the bag so they are actually aren't in a huge amount of water.

As for the time, if they come home from the fish store that is in town than sure it is probably less of an issue. With less common fish it is pretty common for them to already have been in the bag for 24 hours. Either because they came from a local auction or because they were shipped. Even when I buy fish in state I often have to drive 3+ hours in each direction to get them.

It feels a bit like overkill to me, but to each their own.

I really don't like snails.

 

[dalto]

Firstly, the bag is meant to be open while its floating, so running out of oxygen isnt really an issue.

For the record, I have heard this method recommended many, many times over the years(mostly at fish stores) and have never heard anyone say to open the bag. Not saying nobody does this, just that at least around here it is not the advice commonly given when floating the bag.

Second, this method also includes gradually removing an amount of bag water and replacing it with tank water. For example, removing 1/4 cup of bag water and replacing it with 1/4 cup tank water every 5 minutes. This is what normalizes the fish to the tank waters chemistry. Its sort of like drip acclimating, but more hands one and not as slow and gradual.

But if you do this, it will also normalize the temperature of the water so what would be the point of also floating the bag in your tank?

As a side note, why do you remove additional water as you go? It seems like you would be removing increasing amount of new water by using this approach. Couldn't you just remove a bunch of the water at the start and then add every 5 minutes? It would also be easier to figure out what percentage of the water is new water vs old.

 

[Coyne]

I suppose the sole point of actually floating the bag in the water is to match bag water temp to tank water temp. If you dont have a drip acclimation system in place, then it just becomes a convenient place to keep the fish while you perform the manual acclimation (removing bag water and replacing it with tank water).

The the point of removing a little and then adding a little is so that the adjustments in pH, nitrate, etc will be more gradual. The same thing is happening during drip acclimation except instead of there being a small and constant removal/adding, its happening in larger chunks that are spread out over longer intervals.

Drip acclimation is removing, for example, 3 drops of bag/store water per second and instantly replacing it with 3 drops of tank water per second.

Manual acclimation is you taking a measuring cup, say 1/4 cup, and removing that much bag/store water and replacing it with the same amount of tank water every 5 minutes for an hour or two.
How much is swapped, the length between swapping, and the duration of the total process will likely vary from person to person and is another debate entirely.

... and now that I think about it, both processes resolve the "sitting in their own ammonia" issue because old water that might have ammonia build up is being removed and then being replaced with cycled tank water that should be ammonia free.

Ive yet to have fish delivered to me in the mail or drive more than 30 minutes with new fish. I assumed that fish sent in the mail had something added to the water to deal with the ammonia build up. Maybe those far away LFS (holy schmoley, 3 hours!?) could add the same or similar to your bag?

 

[dalto]

So when you drip acclimate you have two drips going? One into the bag/container and one out of the bag/container? I have never seen that done. How do you make that work from a gravity perspective? I guess you have three levels?

What you describe as manual is my option #3 above. The only difference is I just take a bunch of water out at the beginning where you take water out as you go. It is not really that different I guess.

 

[brennae]

As far as fish in the mail, I put a drop of prime in the bag when I first open it. This has always worked for me and a saltwater buddy suggested it. Sometimes the fish are in the bag 2 or 3 days. I also have driven 3 hours to get fish and I hands on acclimated them with the put some new in and take some old out method and they were fine.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Aquarium Advice mobile app

 

[Coyne]

As far as drip acclimation goes...that's how it was explained to me and that is how Ive always done it. I have a container that sits outside of tank that holds my new fish and the store water. It sits just below the water line of the aquarium. I have air tube #1 that goes from the tank to the container, and air tube #2 (with a small ball valve) that goes from the container to a bucket. I start a siphon with both lines and use the ball valve to control the drip rate. Here is a link to exactly what I have:
Aquarium Acclimation Kit: Reef Gently AccliMate Pro

My "AccliStick" broke, which is why I now use a ball valve.

Now, here's the problem I have with your Method #3. Im going to get a little abstract, so please bare with me. Lets imaging the bag water is red in color, and the tank water is blue in color. The goal of acclimation is to turn the red water into blue water so that when you add the fish to the tank the will have already become accustom to the blue water. If you simply remove half of the red water and replace it with blue water, then you end up with purple water. While this is a closer match than the original water, its still not the right color.
If you're constantly removing red water and replacing it with blue water, then you will eventually get passed the purple stage and end up with blue. Does that make sense? I kind of just made it up, but I think it helps visualize whats happening.

 

[dalto]

I typically go until it is about 75 / 25. So mostly blue. Or a dark purple I guess. With a more sensitive fish I will got to more like 90 / 10.

I guess I see the value in removing the water as you go. It makes the acclimation more gradual. It makes it much harder to calculate though.

 

[Coyne]

Everybody's got there own methods. I dont have to worry about "calculations" because with the drip acclimation system I can set it up and then walk away. I check in on it every so often and end it when Ive got 2 gallons of waste water sitting in the bucket, which takes 2-3 hours depending on the flow rate I set. Then I know Im "all blue" and then some.

Im positive this is overkill, especially since I dont currently keep any fish that are super sensitive. Also, the water at the various LFS I frequent are pretty much the same as my tap water as far as pH, GH and KH are concerned. But since I bought the drip acclimation contraption, and its super easy to use, I may as well do it.

The only problem Ive had so far is when I bring home nano-fish like Pygmy corys and Ember tetras. They tend to swim out of the inner container through the drainage holes and wedge themselves between the inner and outer portion. I have to be super careful not to squish them between the two pieces of plastic.

 

[ScaryFatKidGT]

Yeah, at most stores I go to they dip the bag into the tank to put water into it. This means that whatever was floating around in the tank is now on both sides of the bag.

Another reason I don't like floating the bag is that you either need to lower the water level in the tank or risk the fish jumping out from the open lid. Lastly, floating only acclimates the fish to the temperature of the water.

I acclimate the fish by pouring it and a small portion of the water from the bag in a container and then gradually adding tank water in to the container. This acclimates them to not only the temperature of the tank but all the other water parameters as well.

This is not really different than people who do the same thing inside the bag. I just find it easier to pour them into a container than trying to keep the bag upright.

At the end of the day, floating the bag is a left over practice from when we understood far less about the science of fish keeping. To me this is no different than the people who still think adding aquarium salt is a good idea or that a fish will not outgrow its tank.

U usually shut the lid on the opening of the bag to keep the lid shut and keep the bag in place.

The part about leaving the lights on and frying the fish speaks more about problems with individual intelligence than it does about the process itself.

Lol thats what I was thinking, my T5's sit like 4" or more off the tank then theres glass tops and about and inch to the water, not really worried about the bag melting through the glass tops.

For the record, I have heard this method recommended many, many times over the years(mostly at fish stores) and have never heard anyone say to open the bag. Not saying nobody does this, just that at least around here it is not the advice commonly given when floating the bag.

But if you do this, it will also normalize the temperature of the water so what would be the point of also floating the bag in your tank?

As a side note, why do you remove additional water as you go? It seems like you would be removing increasing amount of new water by using this approach. Couldn't you just remove a bunch of the water at the start and then add every 5 minutes? It would also be easier to figure out what percentage of the water is new water vs old.

I leave the bag shut until I add water then I obviously open it, again shutting the glass top on it to keep it in place.

I do agree with the removal of water, makes no sense to me, theres no way even 10 cups of water would over flow the bag.

 

[Coyne]

LOL... the point of removing the bag water during acclimation is not to prevent the bag from overflowing.

 

[PB_Smith]

ya know, fish really aren't that delicate.

I remember we would get shipments direct from Hawaii and those fish were usually in the bags for about 72 hours.
Now the way they packed them was a little different then the way a lfs would do it.
They were packed in enough water to cover their bodies and the water was treated with methylene blue, a mild sedative, and super saturated with oxygen. then the bags were filled with pure oxygen. Often we would get fish like damsels with maybe 1/2 a cup of water in the bag. We would also have to be careful how we handled them for the first day because they were often still stoned from the sedatives.
You ever try to acclimate a trigger who keeps nodding out on you?

There were many nights spent running to the airport as soon as the store closed, waiting for a plane, getting the crates and then back to the store for four hours+ of acclimation.

 

[PB_Smith]

oh, one interesting side note; we could tell which fish were in more dire need of attention because of the color of the water, the more "green" rather than blue it looked, the more waste the fish produced in transit.