True Perculas??????

[baron1282]

I am wondering if the fish store sold me True Perculas like I had asked for, or something else? I would be upset if they are not what I asked for, but I wouldn't return them being I kind of like them. They grew on me regardless of what kind of Clown they are. I did pay $20 each for them, so what are they and does that sound right? Thanks for the help!!

Notice that each of them don't have a third ring around their tail. Is this just because they are young and the colors are coming?

Here is the pictures of the two I added tonight, they are the first fish in my tank. A Six Line Wrasse is going in next week.

 

[AbsoluteFaye]

Def perculas. Not sure if true or false. Still great for your tank!

 

[PurplePolyp]

First off, the only real difference between true and false perculas are that true percs are pulled from the ocean and false percs are tank raised. Secondly, true percs have 3 white lines with a dark black ring of varying widths around the white. False percs seldom have the ring and if they do, it's really thin. If you can count the spikes on the dorsal fin, 10 is for true, 11 is for false. Hope this helps.

 

[Whiplash187]

First off, the only real difference between true and false perculas are that true percs are pulled from the ocean and false percs are tank raised. Secondly, true percs have 3 white lines with a dark black ring of varying widths around the white. False percs seldom have the ring and if they do, it's really thin. If you can count the spikes on the dorsal fin, 10 is for true, 11 is for false. Hope this helps.

And i noticed that a tank raised false clown once you put them in your tank they dont hide in caves or rocks they are always in the side of your glass and true clowns i notice they swim right away inside caves or hide in your rock formation. Thats the thing i noticed

 

[Whiplash187]

I am wondering if the fish store sold me True Perculas like I had asked for, or something else? I would be upset if they are not what I asked for, but I wouldn't return them being I kind of like them. They grew on me regardless of what kind of Clown they are. I did pay $20 each for them, so what are they and does that sound right? Thanks for the help!!

Notice that each of them don't have a third ring around their tail. Is this just because they are young and the colors are coming?

Here is the pictures of the two I added tonight, they are the first fish in my tank. A Six Line Wrasse is going in next week.

Is your clown only have 2 white lines? Didn't see One at the end. Don't know if its just moving. Nevermind just read the last paragraph i think my marble snail got me hahaha

 

[MacDracor]

The difference between true percula (amphiprion percula) and false percula (amphiprion occelaris) has absolutely nothing to do with tank raised or wild caught.
They are different species. Unfortunately, the differences are extremely subtle. The percula has 9-10 dorsal spines while the occelaris has 10-11. 10 and 11 are most common, respectively, but this is obviously not a reliable indicator. There are subtle differences in the thickness of the black margins, and the occelaris has a slightly differently shaped dorsal. They also had slightly different wild distributions. It takes an expert to reliably tell the difference. But they can both be captive bred and generally cost the same. I believe occelaris are usually a bit darker orange, but again this is not a hard and fast rule. The difference between species is often too subtle for the average human eye to distinguish. But make no mistake, raising something in a tank does NOT change what species it is.
Out of curiosity, why would it upset you to get one rather than the other?

 

[PurplePolyp]

The difference between true percula (amphiprion percula) and false percula (amphiprion occelaris) has absolutely nothing to do with tank raised or wild caught.
They are different species. Unfortunately, the differences are extremely subtle. The percula has 9-10 dorsal spines while the occelaris has 10-11. 10 and 11 are most common, respectively, but this is obviously not a reliable indicator. There are subtle differences in the thickness of the black margins, and the occelaris has a slightly differently shaped dorsal. They also had slightly different wild distributions. It takes an expert to reliably tell the difference. But they can both be captive bred and generally cost the same. I believe occelaris are usually a bit darker orange, but again this is not a hard and fast rule. The difference between species is often too subtle for the average human eye to distinguish. But make no mistake, raising something in a tank does NOT change what species it is.
Out of curiosity, why would it upset you to get one rather than the other?

Yes...it has a lot to do with tank raised or wild caught. I just happened to be with a marine biologist last night and she didn't hesitate when I asked that question. She hit breed characteristics spot on as well (9 or 10 fin dorsal, etc.). That's a fairly expert opinion.

 

[MacDracor]

Now that is interesting. I'd be very interested in meeting a marine biologist who believes you can change from one species to another by breeding in a different environment. Please ask her for permission to give me her contact information.
However, until I've heard that from a marine biologist AND verified his/her credentials, I'm going to go with the scientific community as a whole here and restate this.
Species is determined by genetics, not environment. Percula and occelaris are different species.

 

[baron1282]

I tried to get a better picture, but the Iphone can only do so much. LoL

As for being upset, I would be upset at the store for selling me something that I did not order. Agreed it would technically be my own fault as I really can't tell which Clown is which. I had ordered True Perculas from them and waited a week for them, so when I got them I was excited, when I got home and started acclimating them, I noticed they didn't look like any True Percula pictures I had seen on the internet. I guess my MAIN question is, did I get ripped off? In terms of price. I paid $20.99 for each of them.

As far as me being happy with the fish, that's a different story. They look cool and are already swimming about.

Funny you should say that a True would go to a Cave and a False would go straight to the glass. One of my Clowns went straight to a Cave right away when I put him in. The other went straight for the corner of my tank and stayed up there all night. Both stayed all night in each of their little areas. So who knows.

Am I happy with the Fish? Yes, I am happy with my fish and regardless of what they are I will keep them and care for them.

Would I be happy at the fish store? No because they said they were selling me True Perculas and if they didn't than they lied. Regardless if it's hard to tell them apart.

 

[ccCapt]

Yes...it has a lot to do with tank raised or wild caught. I just happened to be with a marine biologist last night and she didn't hesitate when I asked that question. She hit breed characteristics spot on as well (9 or 10 fin dorsal, etc.). That's a fairly expert opinion.

It has absolutely nothing to do with being tank raised or not and no real marine biologist would state such a fallacy. They are 2 distinct species of the same genus.
Amphiprion (genus) percula (species) - true perc
Saltwater Aquarium Fish for Marine Aquariums: True Percula Clownfish

Amphiprion (genus) ocellaris (species) - fasle perc
Saltwater Aquarium Fish for Marine Aquariums: Ocellaris Clownfish

 

[MacDracor]

Thanks, ccCapt.
Anywho, I have seen pictures of the two species that appear so diverse I might think they were a half dozen species. Colors and patterns can change so quickly through breeding that I essentially stopped trying to tell the difference between occelaris and percula. But, at my local stores they cost the same.
While of course, the customer's order should always be filled correctly, personally I wouldn't be too concerned unless you plan on breeding and selling with accurate labels. But again, that's just me. I'm kinda laissez-faire about some things. Lol

 

[Whiplash187]

Funny you should say that a True would go to a Cave and a False would go straight to the glass. One of my Clowns went straight to a Cave right away when I put him in. The other went straight for the corner of my tank and stayed up there all night. Both stayed all night in each of their little areas. So who knows.

:

Just saying for my experience i bought 2 tank breed false clown and for a week or two they just stayed in the glass and its been 7 months now they dont even swim inside my rock formation or caves. My friend bought a true ocean picked and right away zips thru and hide inside the cave and he has his for 4 months and his true clown just zig zagging in his rock formation. Well that just me and false clown is the only tank raise in my tank and the rest is ocean pick and deliver from my lfs. Maybe my marble cone snail that my lfs sold me got me poisoned and just seeing things ahaha

 

[baron1282]

Well, True or False I am ok with it.

I wanted True but didn't know they came from the Ocean. If I had known I wouldn't have asked. I just like what I saw in the Pictures. ;-p I don't want to add to our worlds reef problems by taking more things out of the Ocean.

Whatever they are they have grown on me, so I don't care anymore. I have not seen a Two banded Clown fish before it's cool I got two. They are cool guys and they will be cared for well. I hope to give them a good life for however long they live. I hope they grow well, because I like them small but can't wait for them to get full size.

 

[Wendy8184]

That is not a bad price.

 

[MacDracor]

Every fish has a unique personality. This is even truer with clowns. But again, it has nothing to do with tank bred or wild caught. Both of mine are tank bred and some days they hang out on the glass, other days they hide. The male spends more time among the rocks than the female.
16-22 seems to be average price for either species, both of which are available wild caught or tank bred. In my experience, tank bred are simply cheaper.

 

[PurplePolyp]

My false perc sleeps on the glass. She was hosting an anemone when I bought the two but the nem died. Now she sleeps on the glass and he sleeps on the sand bed or next to her.

 

[Tony Gill]

"Marine biologist" is a rather broad profession. Fish taxonomy (or systematic ichthyology) is the specific area of biological research devoted to identification and classification of fishes. Moreover, although fish taxonomists are expected to be able to identify many different types of fishes (usually with the aid of published scientific descriptions and keys and comparison with museum specimens), they are usually only expert in just a few groups. (For instance, my area of expertise is in dottybacks, though I have broad experience in identifying reef fishes world-wide.) Amphiprion ocellaris and A. percula are currently regarded to be different species, based mainly on the research of the current damselfish expert (Gerry Allen). The two species are often difficult to distinguish, though the dorsal spine counts (usually 11 in A. ocellaris versus 9-10 in A. percula) and dorsal-fin height (height of fin 2.1-2.9 times in the head length in A. ocellaris versus 3.0-3.4 times in A. percula) seem to be reliable. Coloration is not always reliable, thanks in part to geographic variation (particularly in A. ocellaris). It is possible ... if not not probable ... that future research may show that one or both species are actually complexes of closely related species. (This has already been demonstrated recently for several other Amphiprion species that show "geographic variation.") As for captive bred specimens, I suspect that ... due to inbreeding ... these may not always show the correct characteristics of their species. I have studied the bones of some captive bred specimens (of both species) and it looks like there are high levels of abnormality - incompletely developed pectoral and caudal fin supports, fusion of bones, etc. So it would not surprise me if some showed the wrong dorsal-fin spine counts or fin heights.

Hope this clarifies things a bit ... even though I offer nothing new to the actual identification.

Tony

 

[willbratz]

"Marine biologist" is a rather broad profession. Fish taxonomy (or systematic ichthyology) is the specific area of biological research devoted to identification and classification of fishes. Moreover, although fish taxonomists are expected to be able to identify many different types of fishes (usually with the aid of published scientific descriptions and keys and comparison with museum specimens), they are usually only expert in just a few groups. (For instance, my area of expertise is in dottybacks, though I have broad experience in identifying reef fishes world-wide.) Amphiprion ocellaris and A. percula are currently regarded to be different species, based mainly on the research of the current damselfish expert (Gerry Allen). The two species are often difficult to distinguish, though the dorsal spine counts (usually 11 in A. ocellaris versus 9-10 in A. percula) and dorsal-fin height (height of fin 2.1-2.9 times in the head length in A. ocellaris versus 3.0-3.4 times in A. percula) seem to be reliable. Coloration is not always reliable, thanks in part to geographic variation (particularly in A. ocellaris). It is possible ... if not not probable ... that future research may show that one or both species are actually complexes of closely related species. (This has already been demonstrated recently for several other Amphiprion species that show "geographic variation.") As for captive bred specimens, I suspect that ... due to inbreeding ... these may not always show the correct characteristics of their species. I have studied the bones of some captive bred specimens (of both species) and it looks like there are high levels of abnormality - incompletely developed pectoral and caudal fin supports, fusion of bones, etc. So it would not surprise me if some showed the wrong dorsal-fin spine counts or fin heights.

Hope this clarifies things a bit ... even though I offer nothing new to the actual identification.

Tony

I think you just made it more confusing!!! LOL none the less good reading for sure!!

 

[Rutrag]

This is just a personal observation and doesn't really have a scientific basis - perculas normally seem to have a more orange or red eye where ocellaris seem to have a more brown eye. Perculas relatively speaking seem to have more black. Of course, when you throw in all the tank-raised mutations and strains, this all seems to go out the window...

 

[bigbanker]

"Marine biologist" is a rather broad profession. Fish taxonomy (or systematic ichthyology) is the specific area of biological research devoted to identification and classification of fishes. Moreover, although fish taxonomists are expected to be able to identify many different types of fishes (usually with the aid of published scientific descriptions and keys and comparison with museum specimens), they are usually only expert in just a few groups. (For instance, my area of expertise is in dottybacks, though I have broad experience in identifying reef fishes world-wide.) Amphiprion ocellaris and A. percula are currently regarded to be different species, based mainly on the research of the current damselfish expert (Gerry Allen). The two species are often difficult to distinguish, though the dorsal spine counts (usually 11 in A. ocellaris versus 9-10 in A. percula) and dorsal-fin height (height of fin 2.1-2.9 times in the head length in A. ocellaris versus 3.0-3.4 times in A. percula) seem to be reliable. Coloration is not always reliable, thanks in part to geographic variation (particularly in A. ocellaris). It is possible ... if not not probable ... that future research may show that one or both species are actually complexes of closely related species. (This has already been demonstrated recently for several other Amphiprion species that show "geographic variation.") As for captive bred specimens, I suspect that ... due to inbreeding ... these may not always show the correct characteristics of their species. I have studied the bones of some captive bred specimens (of both species) and it looks like there are high levels of abnormality - incompletely developed pectoral and caudal fin supports, fusion of bones, etc. So it would not surprise me if some showed the wrong dorsal-fin spine counts or fin heights.

Hope this clarifies things a bit ... even though I offer nothing new to the actual identification.

Tony

Thank you for the info.... it was well written and a pleasure to read. After a recent discussion on ethics of fish keeping it is interesting to read about the findings in captive breed fish.