Water changes solves almost everything

[Fish_Fan]

Can u guys plz help and check out my help thread

 

[Fresh2o]

Yeah, where's a Supreme Aquamaster or Aquaking when you need one? Today's filters seem to going back to the days of the Dynaflo air bubbler filters. lol Just not big enough to do the job right.

Ahhhh...those were the muscle cars of power filters! Dual/triple siphon intake, air cooled motor on top.
I really can't add to this thread (that has not already been covered).


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[Andy Sager]

Ahhhh...those were the muscle cars of power filters! Dual/triple siphon intake, air cooled motor on top.
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Yes they were. I dug mine out of "storage" about 2 years ago only to find that the motors had frozen and there were no repairs for them available. I guess I couldn't expect them to live forever. I only used them for about 25 years. ( good equipment lasts almost forever.)

 

[Rivers2k]

Okay, so here's another thread on the water changes. Well described and clearly stated. But here's the thing, for any knowledgeable hobbyist, doing a water change is not up for debate. It MUST be done since we are using closed systems but it's the amount of the water change that is safe to do is what's at issue. It depends on the fish in the tank, the water parameters at that time and the water used to refill the tank. It will be different from tank to tank and water source. I've kept fish in multiple states over many decades and I know that the water in different places differs from place to place. So one person's experience can not be considered the "standard."

The OP discusses now about his Firemouths. ( A fish I am very familiar with and have even seen in the wild.) This is a fish that, under the worst of conditions, still survives. No, it will not be at it's best under the worst of conditions and Yes, clean water will have a lot to do with the vibrancy and survivability of the fish, but the bottom line is that this routine can not be the "absolute standard" for all fish. Some fish just can't handle that much water change.

This is where I have problems with threads such as this one. How is a new hobbyist supposed to know what to do for their tank(s)? All I ask is to PLEASE, find a way to mention in the thread that "What I do may not be appropriate for you" so no one is left staring at a tank saying "I copied what I read on AA in this thread and all my fish died " This WILL happen for certain fish if this routine is done.

To the OP's credit, under stocking also plays a big part in fish health. So does the diet, psychological well being of the fish and tank mates. The water change alone is not responsible for the current outcome of these fish but it does play an important role in it.
So just to be clear, I'm not saying that water changes aren't necessary or that what the OP is doing is wrong, I'm just saying that the exact routine does not apply to all fish species. You have to learn the fish you keep so you can know the right process to use.

Hope this helps

Sorry for such a delay I had a very busy weekend. Please don't take this as an argument to your point at all I am just curious. What type kinds of fish would not benefit from weekly water changes so I can be more clearer in the future?

Also to other comments that were made there is a point where people get out of hand with water changes I have heard of people doing 50% water changes everyday and I am not a proponent of that. If they want to so be it. but i believe the fish need time to settle also.

Edit -

I just saw your post about wild cardinals yes there are going to be exceptions for every rule and more advanced aquariast are going to know what to do this was more for the newbie that is why it is in the "getting started" section. I think we will see allot less help my fish is sick or help with algea problems if people got on regular schedule of weekly water changes even if it is as low as 25%.

And neon tetras benefit from water changed just like any other fish you just have to be careful not to get them in the stream of new water.

 

[PB_Smith]

Sorry for such a delay I had a very busy weekend. Please don't take this as an argument to your point at all I am just curious. What type kinds of fish would not benefit from weekly water changes so I can be more clearer in the future?

Also to other comments that were made there is a point where people get out of hand with water changes I have heard of people doing 50% water changes everyday and I am not a proponent of that. If they want to so be it. but i believe the fish need time to settle also.

Edit -

I just saw your post about wild cardinals yes there are going to be exceptions for every rule and more advanced aquariast are going to know what to do this was more for the newbie that is why it is in the "getting started" section. I think we will see allot less help my fish is sick or help with algea problems if people got on regular schedule of weekly water changes even if it is as low as 25%.

caliban started this thread;
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f12/importance-of-tds-319174.html
which explains the science behind it and answers some of your questions.

And neon tetras benefit from water changed just like any other fish you just have to be careful not to get them in the stream of new water.

that makes absolutely no rational sense and is exactly the type of myth/misconceptions that need to be squashed.

As a general rule of thumb, it is best to avoid any of the fish getting in the "stream of new water" but only one problem, especially with tetras, they absolutely LOVE the influx of fresh water, especially if it is 1-2 degrees cooler and they will often position themselves in the stream as I refill my tank, but I do refill slowly via 3/8" hose, so it's not like a rushing river.

 

[Rivers2k]

caliban started this thread;
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f12/importance-of-tds-319174.html
which explains the science behind it and answers some of your questions.




that makes absolutely no rational sense and is exactly the type of myth/misconceptions that need to be squashed.

As a general rule of thumb, it is best to avoid any of the fish getting in the "stream of new water" but only one problem, especially with tetras, they absolutely LOVE the influx of fresh water, especially if it is 1-2 degrees cooler and they will often position themselves in the stream as I refill my tank, but I do refill slowly via 3/8" hose, so it's not like a rushing river.

I didn't have any questions I just posted my experience.

as far as neons go I had found that if they get caught up in a stream of water that isn't 100 percent exact in temp and permiters some can start doing the death spin (which is very rare). So in my experience that is the only way a neon would be more sensitive to a water change as suggested before. I am basically saying WC are good for all fish. I believe it was Andy that said WC weren't good for Neons. I was just trying to make sense of his suggestions.

 

[PB_Smith]

I didn't have any questions I just posted my experience.

as far as neons go I had found that if they get caught up in a stream of water that isn't 100 percent exact in temp and permiters some can start doing the death spin (which is very rare). So in my experience that is the only way a neon would be more sensitive to a water change as suggested before. I am basically saying WC are good for all fish. I believe it was Andy that said WC weren't good for Neons. I was just trying to make sense of his suggestions.

I meant your questions to Andy concerning what fish may be susceptible. Caliban's thread explains a lot of the science and why's big changes are potentially detrimental and how so for different types of fish.
So by applying the fundamental scientific principles outlined in Caliban's thread, it is easy to extrapolate and apply the same principles/ideas to all types of fish.

concerning neons, as I said, when re-filling I siphon the water back into the tank slowly, and most of the fish will swim in and out headlong into the stream of new water as if enjoying run off from a rainstorm upstream.
Making the new water 1-2 degrees cooler also mimics their natural habitat in that way and often induces spawning behavior in tetras.
Now if I went and just poured it back in rapidly, well that's a different story and much more likely to induce negative reactions from the fish.

 

[Rivers2k]

I meant your questions to Andy concerning what fish may be susceptible. Caliban's thread explains a lot of the science and why's big changes are potentially detrimental and how so for different types of fish.
So by applying the fundamental scientific principles outlined in Caliban's thread, it is easy to extrapolate and apply the same principles/ideas to all types of fish.

concerning neons, as I said, when re-filling I siphon the water back into the tank slowly, and most of the fish will swim in and out headlong into the stream of new water as if enjoying run off from a rainstorm upstream.
Making the new water 1-2 degrees cooler also mimics their natural habitat in that way and often induces spawning behavior in tetras.
Now if I went and just poured it back in rapidly, well that's a different story and much more likely to induce negative reactions from the fish.

oh gotcha now.

 

[Linwood]

Making the new water 1-2 degrees cooler also mimics their natural habitat in that way and often induces spawning behavior in tetras.

I was just at a talk by a biologist who had studied loaches, and he had found that they need harder water to live, but will swim into very soft water and find it necessary to induce spawning, the supposition is that they swim upstream when the rainy season starts and you get cleaner (less TDS) water flowing downstream, and they swim strongly upstream to spawn. He said they had actually tested that in a lab for another fish (I forget which, but smaller) and set up a very up-hill, up-stream arrangement with low conductivity water, and observed them fighting to get upstream in it.

It was interesting how substantial and fairly rapid change in water (ph, conductivity in particular) were responsible for several fish's spawning behavior, and they just plain would not do so without it.

So with your weekly water change you may be forcing sex on them every time.

 

[Brookster123]

I was just at a talk by a biologist who had studied loaches, and he had found that they need harder water to live, but will swim into very soft water and find it necessary to induce spawning, the supposition is that they swim upstream when the rainy season starts and you get cleaner (less TDS) water flowing downstream, and they swim strongly upstream to spawn. He said they had actually tested that in a lab for another fish (I forget which, but smaller) and set up a very up-hill, up-stream arrangement with low conductivity water, and observed them fighting to get upstream in it.

It was interesting how substantial and fairly rapid change in water (ph, conductivity in particular) were responsible for several fish's spawning behavior, and they just plain would not do so without it.

So with your weekly water change you may be forcing sex on them every time.

Cool!! Science I've heard from other members that changing with cooler water (-2°) can induce spawning, further would be to sprinkle the water over the surface to simulate rain. Hmm maybe I'll set my current to rainstorm mode and pour a watering can over the tank and see if I can't start a sexy fishy party...

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[mikem691]

I'm with you on this one rivers.

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[lectraplayer]

I'm not a fish breeder so I've not thought about it that way. I have heard that water changes is similar to exercise. Too much at once hurts, but less done more often is better all around. Either way, not enough is kryptonite. You want to keep the water clean, but I have noticed a few problems out of my neons (and I assume they are still similar to the cardial tetra mentioned, dispite being raised wild vs. farm) Never attributed my troubles to that.

I have run into trouble before from changing water too often when fighting "something wrong" as I go crazy with water changes then.

I also saw on Wikipedi that some fish breed when you let nitrates build for a couplc weeks and then change a lot of it.

 

[Linwood]

I'm not a fish breeder so I've not thought about it that way. I have heard that water changes is similar to exercise. Too much at once hurts, but less done more often is better all around.

One thing he was stressing in his talk was that each fish seems different, and you cannot understand them without understanding their native environment. Some (Cardinals I think was his example) need everything REALLY stable, I mean REALLY stable - light, food, water- to produce viable eggs. Others (his Loach example) actually need a radical change to get them going, in this case his theory was it signaled the start of the rainy season and availability of upstream water (predator free? no idea). But that some of the "difficult to breed in captivity" appears mostly because we do not understand the proper triggers and environment. He put huge effort into clown loach breeding, which is fairly rare, and said a lot of the "common knowledge" was just plain wrong. [I do not mean to imply that anywhere in his talk he said "do not change water frequently" by the way, rather that his efforts went into years of trial and error to find the right answer for each fish.]

 

[jetajockey]

Well one constant in most of their native environments is a supply of clean water. There are some exceptions to this too, but generally speaking, most do not live in a small container of water. I do agree that water change % and frequency depend a lot on the species involved. I also believe though that some thought should be given into conditioning the water prior to adding it to a tank. Not just adding dechlorinator, but actually conditioning the water to match tank gh/kh and temperature (if you arent trying to induce spawning) ballpark. This is where people that do large water changes tend to have issues. It's not because they change a large amount of water, it's because the new water they put in is drastically different than the water they took out. The easier solution to this of course is to just do smaller water changes.

I don't think there's a one size fits all solution to tank maintenance, but I do think that a weekly/biweekly water change routine is sound advice for a beginner in the hobby. Of course as a guideline and not a hard rule.

 

[Linwood]

I also believe though that some thought should be given into conditioning the water prior to adding it to a tank. Not just adding dechlorinator, but actually conditioning the water to match tank gh/kh and temperature (if you arent trying to induce spawning) ballpark. This is where people that do large water changes tend to have issues.

Yeah, it always bothered me that the python method so many people use depends on the newly introduced water becoming chlorine free extremely quickly due to conditioner in the tank. Or worse if they add it afterwards. (Obviously not applicable to people on their own well, talking tap water). I know it's done very widely, it obviously is not deadly, I just wonder about it.

Hopefully they don't aim the new water near their filter intake.

One thing painful about RODI water I use is I have to mix it ahead of time (remineralization, buffers, etc.). But it does force a certain discipline, gives time for temperature adjustment, etc.

Well one constant in most of their native environments is a supply of clean water.

The constant-drip water change devices actually make a great deal of sense in this regard, it's continuous, and not an event.

 

[Rivers2k]

So with your weekly water change you may be forcing sex on them every time.

I keep mostly CA Cichlids they tend to be horny little buggers any ways. I don't think they need any encouraging lol.

But certainly a good hypothosis. Many fish are encouraged to breed by water changes. I know my bumble bee gobies were one.

 

[Rivers2k]

Yeah, it always bothered me that the python method so many people use depends on the newly introduced water becoming chlorine free extremely quickly due to conditioner in the tank. Or worse if they add it afterwards. (Obviously not applicable to people on their own well, talking tap water). I know it's done very widely, it obviously is not deadly, I just wonder about it.

Hopefully they don't aim the new water near their filter intake.

One thing painful about RODI water I use is I have to mix it ahead of time (remineralization, buffers, etc.). But it does force a certain discipline, gives time for temperature adjustment, etc.

The constant-drip water change devices actually make a great deal of sense in this regard, it's continuous, and not an event.

I put the python right in the tank and add the prime as it is filling I have yet to have a problem. Maybe if you were doing an extreme water change like more than 75% it might cause a problem. But I have never lost a fish due to a water change of this method and after water changes my fish seem happy and vibrant no distressed breathing or hiding.

 

[jetajockey]

I've never had an issue with the python method on my tanks either, but my tap water and my tank conditions are pretty close to one another so I think that's the main reason.

Re: the drip system- I actually have my tanks set up on a drip system, it changes out around 25-35% daily. I can probably get by with less, but I'm also dosing ferts into this system this way so it's serving another purpose as well.

 

[Fresh2o]

Re: the drip system- I actually have my tanks set up on a drip system, it changes out around 25-35% daily. I can probably get by with less, but I'm also dosing ferts into this system this way so it's serving another purpose as well.

+1. I believe this provides the most stable environment with the least amount of fluctuation.



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[Linwood]

I put the python right in the tank and add the prime as it is filling I have yet to have a problem. ....

Yeah, as I said, no one seems to have problems, it just seems... well at the risk of another analogy.

Imagine if someone handed you a glass to drink and said "this is deadly poison" but then gave you a pill and said "swallow this, it will mix with the poison in your belly and neutralize it".

Not saying it couldn't work, just that it would take a brave man to drink.

But absolutely... it may be the most frequently used way to change water. I suspect very few non-marine tanks have someone mixing it up before.