Water changes solves almost everything

[Rivers2k]

This is my last comment on this thread as it has gotten way out of hand. Fact of the matter is water changes are the number one problem solver for many of the newbie issues that arise. Just look at the problems in the getting started section and look at the suggestions. 50% once a week or every two weeks I don't care it will help help if you are having issues in your tank. Shoot 20% every few days it doesn't matter as long as you are doing water changes.

Both Andy and PB have suggested this is no longer just hobby but a money maker run by the man and suggesting we are being duped into buying things. This may be true but this has nothing to do with this thread at all. I am not in the fish business.I make no money off you doing water changes or not I personally don't care if you do water changes at all. The only company that makes any money off me doing water changes is the town that supplies the water and the makers of Prime which costs me about $10 a year.

Just trying to share my experience and shed some light to help others not make the same mistakes I made. But others have to come and try and complicate a very simple process. Fish keeping is fun simple and enjoyable I don't understand why others have to try and complicate things.

 

[BBradbury]

Ending This Thread

Good idea to close this one. We've approached it from about every angle possible. We're all the "Head Water Keeper". The decision is the individual's alone and hopefully, that person will weigh all the information and be able to make a more informed decision on how to approach the subject of water changes.

I know what has worked for me over the years. Apparently, the fish keeping hobby isn't an exact science and there are a number of ways to succeed.

Have fun!

B

 

[lectraplayer]

I agree as well. There would be fewer problems with our fish if we changed at least a certain amount of water a week. I took part of the debate as more water in fewer changes vs. Less water in more changes with both ways being around 50% a week. That's about all I saw that wasn't debated much. Either way, we're not exactly behaving ourselves here.

 

[dalto]

I will say this however, to say that overstocking is not WRONG just isn't true. Overstocking directly means that more fish than recommended are present. You can rationalize it any way you want but the guidelines that were put out are in the fish's best interest. The use of overcrowding African Cichlids has been used for many decades because that was how it was found to be able to keep more than a couple of fish in a tank because they are so territorial. But that doesn't apply to Guppies, Swordtails, Tetras , etc, a.k.a The common everyday fish that people keep. To say overcrowding every type of fish is okay is a little suspect to me.

As I think this is in response to my post I want to be clear that I wasn't intending to say that stuffing lots of fish into a small tank is a good idea. My point was, the definition of "common everyday fish" has changed over the years. Maybe it is just my limited view but it seems there are a lot more people keeping fish like African cichlids than there were 25 years ago. The fact that you can go to petsmart and come home with a tank full of African cichlids is evidence of this. That is one of the reasons that my advice on water change amounts has changed from the advice I would give today versus when I first entered the hobby.

 

[bud29]

Not to stray off topic, but I saw this post and had to address it.

What I can't fathom with this forum is why so many folks will discount advice given by Andy, myself and others who have been doing this many, many, many decades in many different scenarios with many different fish.

I think it is because the mentality expressed in this post is exactly what new fishkeepers don't want to listen to - they don't want to listen to people who think they know more, they want to listen to people who treat them as equals, despite there being an obvious gap in knowledge. Pulling the "experience" card is a huge turn-off to a new fishkeeper, and will get your opinion quickly discounted whether or not you are actually right.

Some of you guys tend to forget that it was us old farts that helped shape what the industry/hobby is today and we have the benefit of many years of trial and error long before their was the internet, google or advice forums.
We learned by doing, often with one eye closed and one hand tied behind our backs, feeling our way along based on what we knew about the science.

The "walking to school uphill both ways" story, fishkeeping-style?

Unfortunately the loudest voices now seem to be the industry elements who's main driving force is $$$$$$$$$, not good fish keeping practices or the well being of the animals being kept. The advice given by old-timers in the know will often conflict with "industry" advice because us old-timers are not trying to make a dollar off you!

I think most people, once they start researching, can pretty easily see through some of the faulty industry recommendations. The people who get "tricked" into buying things like that have not done much research. I think the problem is ignorance on the end of the consumer, not necessarily manipulation from the industry.

Most members on here don't go out and buy filter cartridges every month, or add ph down to their tank every week, etc. Most of the "manipulated" aquarists which you like to talk about are not on here, because they haven't taken the time to do any research. I think you're really overblowing the scope of this "manipulation." Most of the advice given on here is from people who have no interest in profit and just want to help others.

You are also failing to recognize that Andy is giving the best "getting started" advice, much, much more so than the tired old "change half the water every week and everything will be honky-dory" line of reasoning.

It's already been addressed before, but the "50% every week" mantra is just a guideline. It's not a hard rule.

At any rate, this thread wasn't about water change rate really, IMO. The OP seemed to state a pretty accepted thought, that clean water is used to treat many situations, and then people used this thread as a soapbox to go off on personal tangents about anything relating to aquaria.

 

[PB_Smith]

Uhmmm, ok, sure.

 

[lectraplayer]

Bud is right. That "holier than thou" attitude instantly proves YOU are an idiot when it is visible.

Also, not everyone understands convoluted answers.

 

[PB_Smith]

 

[Linwood]

Also, not everyone understands convoluted answers.

"Not everyone understands" is not a reason not to give a complete answer. The race to dumb things down to the lowest common denominator does no one any good.

There's an old quote:

For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, .....
.... and wrong.
​

I had a boss once who wanted every question answered with 5 second sound bytes. Everything was simple to him, regardless of what the problem was, and if the answer sounded complicated the then it was the person answering. I do admit that some people can distill the complex down better than others. But there are times when, well... the clear and simple answer is just wrong.

I think this "everyone has to be talked to as an equal" is a good idea, but honestly I may learn 10% of my stuff from my "equals", I learn 90% of what I know from people smarter than me, more experienced than me, and/or more knowledgeable on a subject than me. So please, don't drive away those who are more experienced and smarter. If they toot their own horn a bit, so what.

 

[PB_Smith]

Thank you, Linwood.
If a person felt so inclined as to go through and read all my posts here, they would hopefully notice one common denominator throughout; I strive to impart the fundamental concepts and how/why they function and need to be understood.

I do not care how frequently someone does water changes or how much, I do care if it seems they are just mindlessly following instructions or if those instructions are mindlessly tossed about with little explanation.
There is nothing wrong with simply following instructions to accomplish something, but is it so wrong to provide further understanding of why they are doing what is being instructed?
In my experience, people make far fewer mistakes in any venture they undertake if they have a solid understanding of the core fundamentals.

I'm sure that if given the instructions and resources, most members here could assemble a car. But it's those members who understand the fundamentals of internal combustion engines, transmissions, power flow, etc., etc., etc., that will not only assemble a car, but can do so faster, more efficiently, and end up with a better final product and derive more enjoyment out of the entire process.
I hope you understand the analogy.

I am a little curious what bearing my personality has on my intelligence or the accuracy and scientific soundness of my "advice"?
You may not care for the way I present it at times, but I know it is solid, good advice none the less.



I guess I'll just go sit in the corner and watch.....

 

[lectraplayer]

Sometimes, no matter how much you educate, it will be some time before some people understand. Even "test, then change half of your water" is too complex for some at times.

While I think we should "educate the masses," I also think we should cater to the people posing the question to get them going the right direction, and then educate them "more properly." Otherwise people will often be confused farther.

 

[stingrays4]

Hi think it does come down to experience and until you get experience you should do at least twenty percent water change every week,as you get older and more experience you can judge how much needs to be done as there are so many permutations on what an how much is needed.
I rarely if ever test the water parameters.
I do 20/30% WC most weeks
Filters are cleaned out every two to three months.
Tanks are understocked!
Fish fed twice a day on a mixed diet of frozen and dried foods.
Now tempting fate I cannot remember the last time I had to use any type of medication. Last disease I had was white spot an that was um over ten years ago!
My advice - never rush be patient!
Buy form a good local shop and then only buy fish which look 'healthy'
And finally enjoy this amazing hobby

 

[jetajockey]

Sometimes, no matter how much you educate, it will be some time before some people understand. Even "test, then change half of your water" is too complex for some at times.

While I think we should "educate the masses," I also think we should cater to the people posing the question to get them going the right direction, and then educate them "more properly." Otherwise people will often be confused farther.

Yep. I think it's smart to approach new fishkeepers with a very elementary approach, keeping it simple. A new fishkeeper can get overwhelmed or confused easily, so giving them all of the knowledge in the world is going to be fruitless if they cannot yet apply it correctly.

Many of the new posters here have some sort of issue with their setup as it is, so throwing a book at them is just going to compound the stress level.

I don't really consider it 'dumbing it down' as much as it's just speaking on a level that is easy to understand and follow.

 

[Dallascowboys16]

As a longterm member here i will have to say that PB_Smith and Andy are two of the top 10 (I'm not implying I'm in this group) most knowledgeable here even though me and PB have had our differences. I have no problem learning from the obviously more experienced members on here knowing they are more knowledgeable than me. This issue is being extremely overblown and both methods work with one requiring more work with basically the same result.

 

[lectraplayer]

What's wrong with "do this, and check for this. This interferes with that?"

 

[Delapool]

For me I disagree with the title 'water changes solves almost everything'.

Not based on water change size as I think that depends on each tank.

I would say water changes prevents almost everything (going wrong). By itself that is really a solution I know (ie solved) but if you have an infected fish (eg new fish in QT has ich or cottonmouth) I feel water changes would not solve this by itself all the time.

Certainly for infected fish (however they arise) water changes will help and I'm very keen on them, however water changes may only be part of the solution.

I've seen threads where only water changes have been done and they have had some amazing results. Others where more work was needed. For example a not uncommon thread is unhealthy fish with lingering tank water ammonia problems. Many times it turns out the filter media or design is inadequate (some HOB filters using just cartridges replaced every 2 weeks I find particularly annoying).

First up is a water change, then treatment (if needed for whatever unhealthy fish has), last is to improve filter as an example. So water changes are part of the solution but may not cover everything. A point to consider if you get unhealthy fish.

The sticky on unhealthy fish posting sometimes I find asks for some excruciating detail but important to read through.

 

[Caliban07]

For me, the sign of a good teacher is one who can use their own intuition to form an understanding of what level the learner is at.

That is easily done even on a forum like this. Just the opening title or the first post of their thread is enough to tell me how to provide the information they need. I will always attempt to give the reasoning behind my advice no matter how convoluted it may be. The skill is in HOW the information is delivered and in order to deliver it in a way the learner can understand requires a good understanding of the teacher or advice giver in the first place.

One example of this is where a young mother had bought her daughter a fish that had become very Ill. The responses in the post were pretty terrible and some even nasty. Sensing her desperation for answers for the good of the fish and her daughter I sent her a private message. After a good few posts she had learned so much and was very thankful that I was able to provide the information in a way that she could understand after admitting that she was useless at chemistry and never thought she would be able to grasp what I was telling her.

What my gripe is and probably PB smiths is that if information is relayed without understanding, the reasoning behind the advice is lost and you end up with condensed regurgitated advice that doesn't apply to all keepers. This causes much more problems on a forum like this with new members signing up all the time.

It is imperative that when conveying information we try to educate the poster as best in a way that they can understand without seeing them leave the thread. Full and proper information gives the learner the correct tools to find the confidence to give advice themselves.

I have been back in the hobby just over a year. My first tank was when I was 17 and in it was a death box. I can't even bring myself to talk about the stocking and tank size. Now this time I learned, read and researched so much that I feel I am up to speed in terms of how to keep healthy fish.

If I had not sought and received this valuable information I wouldn't have been able to right the TDS thread.

Everybody has the capability to learn what I have learned. Understanding that how people learn is different and recognising how to deliver the information is the where the importance lies.

Otherwise you get people who you see Burst on the scene giving one line unhelpful answers.

Not good.


Sent from my iPhone using Aquarium Advice

 

[lectraplayer]

I second that.

...though on the title, I think it accurate. Most problems seem to stem from polluted water, and clearing the water DOES provide a solution, though sometimes there is more involved. Still, most problems are prevented and cured by just having clean water in the tank.

 

[PB_Smith]

For me, the sign of a good teacher is one who can use their own intuition to form an understanding of what level the learner is at.

That is easily done even on a forum like this. Just the opening title or the first post of their thread is enough to tell me how to provide the information they need. I will always attempt to give the reasoning behind my advice no matter how convoluted it may be. The skill is in HOW the information is delivered and in order to deliver it in a way the learner can understand requires a good understanding of the teacher or advice giver in the first place.

One example of this is where a young mother had bought her daughter a fish that had become very Ill. The responses in the post were pretty terrible and some even nasty. Sensing her desperation for answers for the good of the fish and her daughter I sent her a private message. After a good few posts she had learned so much and was very thankful that I was able to provide the information in a way that she could understand after admitting that she was useless at chemistry and never thought she would be able to grasp what I was telling her.

What my gripe is and probably PB smiths is that if information is relayed without understanding, the reasoning behind the advice is lost and you end up with condensed regurgitated advice that doesn't apply to all keepers. This causes much more problems on a forum like this with new members signing up all the time.

It is imperative that when conveying information we try to educate the poster as best in a way that they can understand without seeing them leave the thread. Full and proper information gives the learner the correct tools to find the confidence to give advice themselves.

I have been back in the hobby just over a year. My first tank was when I was 17 and in it was a death box. I can't even bring myself to talk about the stocking and tank size. Now this time I learned, read and researched so much that I feel I am up to speed in terms of how to keep healthy fish.

If I had not sought and received this valuable information I wouldn't have been able to right the TDS thread.

Everybody has the capability to learn what I have learned. Understanding that how people learn is different and recognising how to deliver the information is the where the importance lies.

Otherwise you get people who you see Burst on the scene giving one line unhelpful answers.

Not good.


Sent from my iPhone using Aquarium Advice

 

[BBradbury]

Water Change Benefits

Hello AA...

There's really only one goal to tank keeping and that's maintaining a stable water chemistry. If water doesn't stay in the tank long, there won't be time for it to change chemically. The addition of fertilizers which include the forms of nitrogen produced by the dissolved fish and plant wastes, changes the chemical make up of the tank water and not for the better. By removing and replacing as much of the old water as possible and replacing it with pure water weekly, doesn't the water stay balanced moreso than small, less frequent changes? I think it does.

"Let your conscience be your guide".

B