Wigglers 2: Birth of a hatchery & everything Angels

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I guess if they are alone, it won't really matter where the eggs are but it sure seems counter intuitive for them to be more protective when less threats are present. But again, I am a new Pleco breeder so I surely don;t have all the answers. That's why I am depending on you guys for the assistance. (y) :D

Thanks :)
 
I guess if they are alone, it won't really matter where the eggs are but it sure seems counter intuitive for them to be more protective when less threats are present. But again, I am a new Pleco breeder so I surely don;t have all the answers. That's why I am depending on you guys for the assistance. (y) :D

Thanks :)
I have no pleco experience merely pointing out irony in the making!:whistle:

It seems everytime I try to predict mother nature she proves me wrong.:facepalm:

Sometimes I think I shouldn't help with the breeding efforts of my fish, they are fine (for the most part) without me!
Then I change something and.....:ermm:
 
I have no pleco experience merely pointing out irony in the making!:whistle:

It seems everytime I try to predict mother nature she proves me wrong.:facepalm:

Sometimes I think I shouldn't help with the breeding efforts of my fish, they are fine (for the most part) without me!
Then I change something and.....:ermm:

Sounds like the old expression " Just when I thought I had all of life's answers, they changed all the questions!!!!!!!!" :facepalm::banghead::lol:

I checked this morning and the remaining eggs are questionable. Appears some on the outside are turning white too. Will just have to wait and see what happens. :huh:
 
I just always hope they grade on curve.... Hehe

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Fry showing color...

Hey guys, my fry have actually made it almost 7 days now and getting bigger! This is so cool to watch and experience. I was wondering do the fry get traits from both parents or just the female? My pair is a Gold Pearl scale (F) and Half Black (M). One of the fry looks to be all black or at least much darker than all the others. I still have a whole "cloud" of fry swimming around in the 20 gallon tank. I try to do at least 1 25% water change and a spot cleaning later on to get as much up as I can. I've been feeding them Hikari First Bites in the AM and around 3 or 4 small feedings of fresh BBS during the day. I finally found what the parents will eat while watching the fry. They will eat frozen Brine shrimp and blood worms. The male will eat flake food but I haven't seen Momma touch the flake food. I'm praying that Ill be able to move them to a grow out tank in about a month. None of the LFS say they want any Angels, they get them from a large company. Any clues on how I can get them to try some? If you would like Andy, I'll send you a few when they get big enough? But WOW I never knew it would take so much time with 3 breeding tanks, 1 operational, but it is great watching them get bigger!:fish2::fish2::fish2:
 
Hey guys, my fry have actually made it almost 7 days now and getting bigger! This is so cool to watch and experience. I was wondering do the fry get traits from both parents or just the female? My pair is a Gold Pearl scale (F) and Half Black (M). One of the fry looks to be all black or at least much darker than all the others. I still have a whole "cloud" of fry swimming around in the 20 gallon tank. I try to do at least 1 25% water change and a spot cleaning later on to get as much up as I can. I've been feeding them Hikari First Bites in the AM and around 3 or 4 small feedings of fresh BBS during the day. I finally found what the parents will eat while watching the fry. They will eat frozen Brine shrimp and blood worms. The male will eat flake food but I haven't seen Momma touch the flake food. I'm praying that Ill be able to move them to a grow out tank in about a month. None of the LFS say they want any Angels, they get them from a large company. Any clues on how I can get them to try some? If you would like Andy, I'll send you a few when they get big enough? But WOW I never knew it would take so much time with 3 breeding tanks, 1 operational, but it is great watching them get bigger!:fish2::fish2::fish2:

Congrats :D
Welcome to the world of fish breeding. It's work :facepalm: :lol:
As for the genetics, they get it from both parents not just the female HOWEVER, if you don't know the genetics of the breeders, you could wind up with any number of types of colors.

Once the fry get a bit larger, ( pea size + ) you will need to start culling the deformed fish. You may not wind up with as many fish as you think. Hopefully that won't be so. ;)

As for the fish shops wanting your fish, I'd make sure you have fish worthy of being sold before you persue this. Raise your first batch up to a good medium size so you know what or how they will turn out. Then think about the stores.

What I have always done was give the stores a taste of my fish for free. I let the fish sell themselves. That means they need to be higher quality fish than what they are getting already. So in your case, I'd be looking to sell the second batch as smalls and once the shops start buying, offer them the mediums at a higher price. So you are really talking about another 10-12 weeks from now before you will have fish available to sell.

As for sending me fish, I appreciate the offer but right now, I am working my lines and barely have enough room for my fish let alone someone else's. :lol: So I'll have to pass but again, thanks for the offer. :flowers:
 
^^+1^^

If there is no curve I am lucky!!!:rolleyes:

You guys are funny. :D Thank goodness my customers are grading on the curve. I give the fish I see mostly a C to C+. The ones I am selling I would give a B- to a B. Goes to show you just how bad the fish are out there. They are nothing compared to the old days. But as I was told, most people keeping fish today don't really know what an Angelfish is SUPPOSED to look like so they take what they can get. That's sad to me. :(
 
I do as Andy mentioned on getting fish out there.
I take samples around.
Take your best to the best.
My #1 LFS is probably most expensive but they have the best reputation in area.
Talk(intelligently) to employees and the owner of shop(s) if possible and mention your 'effort'.
If any seem receptive then arrange to bring them a free sample.
When they see your fish then you can tell them more about what your goals are.
I have dealt with same LFS for over 30 years and they will take whatever I have.
After LFS you need to find fellow keepers(right here) and offer them a good deal!(shipping is the killer)
 
I just started taking fish to my lfs regularly. I've been a customer for a long time so they were already familiar with me. I started out by showing pictures of my fish. Another tip, don't go there at their busiest time like a Saturday or something. They won't have time to speak with you really and may just get annoyed. In the case of my guppies when they first said they would try them I said I would accept just store credit. I always pick out my best specimens. I use large deli cups instead of bags but I use new clean cups and clean water. I don't go in with a Menards bucket and expect anyone to think of me as a serious breeder. I have one person that I deal with there. I go in with the fish when it's convenient for him. Also as has been mentioned you have to have something different, unique or better than what they can normally get.

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Oh I though of something else. If there are any local fish clubs or fish swaps etc you might consider renting a table and selling from there at the swaps. Many fish clubs do auctions. You may not bring in a boat load of $ that way but it will get your name out to people in your area, especially if you invest in simple business cards.

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The results are in and sadly, not too much has changed. The fry from the Koi- Red Cap pair and my "go-to" pair #2 both never swam and are dead. It makes me not have much hope for the eggs from the last Koi- Gold Marble spawn the other day as it's the same male. On the bright side, there seems to be more fry from the Gold marble pair that are swimming ( barely) than last time and the hatch percentage was up so maybe they are on a good path to spawning recovery? The spawned again today but I am going to leave them with the parents this time just to see how they do. After another week or so of the better food ( started feeding it today (y) ). maybe the results will be better so delaying that next spawn is in my best interest I think.

On the brighter side, there are a lot of hatched eggs in the new 1/2 black's spawn and the new Marble spawn so I am anxious to see what happens. The Marbles are the real test. They just hatched 2 days ago so I have at least another couple days before I will know anything but they are in a tank, not a bottle so there is plenty aeration and water so my fingers are really crossed tightly for those Marbles.:blink: Swimming fry answers a whole bunch of questions for me.

I checked and at 2 days in, there are still a few orange eggs in the Pleco cluster. Since they should be hatching tomorrow, I moved them into some clean water in a bottle so that when they do start to feed, I can move them much more easily into another tank. I still haven't been able to rehouse all the babies from the last successful spawn.:facepalm: The tanks with the small Angel babies are all too clean so I don't want to put them in those and I have moved out the larger babies into tanks that they should be able to hide or handle themselves in. Hopefully, after next week, I should have some more empty tanks with algae growing in them so I can empty out that 2gal tank. There's still about 15 to 20 fry in there. I have to admit, now that I can see the beautiful spotted pattern of the fry, I kinda wish they didn't grow up and out of that as adults. I like them better spotted. :brows::whistle:
 
One of the only good things I can think of with the Plecos not hiding their eggs better is that I get to look at them with a high powered magnifying glass and because I could see, I see 8 eggs with blood veins showing so hopefully I get those 8 eggs to hatch today or tomorrow. Right now is 3 days since being laid so I hope they hatch today. :)

A new pair was formed today. :dance: My good Silver female spawned with the Zebra Veil male that was beaten by the Zebra Lace female a while back. I'm going to let them try to raise the spawn as I have little hope of it being any good. It's only his second spawn ever so I'll be surprised if it's a success but since she has successfully raised a spawn before, I have confidence that if it is good, she will do good with it. They are in a 20 long so there is plenty of space should they need it.

The big surprise for the day is the original pair of 1/2 Blacks. They are spawning at this moment for the first time since March 25th so hopefully this will be a success. It was their spawn that produced the only successful 1/2 Black fry which are being saved for future breeding. I hope I can add more to that saved pool. (y)
 
I'm glad you started this thread and keep documenting all the woes of breeding. It's encouraging me to keep trying with the corys.

When the pleco eggs hatch about how long before one would see them outside the cave? My Mr. Bn pleco has been in his tube fanning for a long while now. More than a week and it's been a week to 2 weeks since I have seen either of the girls near the cave.

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I'm glad you started this thread and keep documenting all the woes of breeding. It's encouraging me to keep trying with the corys.

When the pleco eggs hatch about how long before one would see them outside the cave? My Mr. Bn pleco has been in his tube fanning for a long while now. More than a week and it's been a week to 2 weeks since I have seen either of the girls near the cave.

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I'm gonna have to let one of the other Pleco breeders ( Poppa??) address this because I haven't a clue. :lol: You see mine breed in a 9" long 2" diameter PVC tube and have yet to keep the eggs in the tube more than the first 24 hours. I've taken every clutch of eggs out and hatched them myself in another tank or bucket. So far I've had 4 spawns. The first 2 had success ( 3 then 50-60), the third was a complete dud and the 4th now has the 8? viable eggs left to it after it was attacked by the other fish in the tank. My records have the eggs hatching in 3-4 days but I didn't mark down when I started feeding them since I could just see they were off the bottom and onto the sides so I fed. Since this is the first set of Plecos I've ever spawned, that's all I can tell you. I just don't know what "Normal" is. :whistle::lol:

As for the woes of breeding, that's part of the game. As I've previously stated, there is a HUGE difference between breeding fish on purpose and doing it accidentally.:whistle: As for this round of breeding for me, I have to admit I am facing issues I hadn't had before. Then again, the last hatchery I had was stocked with better quality, healthier fish than what's available near me today. I also had the fish eating live tubifex worms daily along with their other foods because I was getting 2 pints of fresh worms 2 times per week delivered to my door from a reliable source. Those days I understand are gone so I am trying different ways to get the higher protein to my breeders. I thought I had that figured out but then I changed a few things and it's been a struggle ever since. Time, knowledge and deduction will get this figured out but if this needed to be a profitable enterprise from the beginning, it would be a huge failure and why I can understand why the quality of today's fish are so bad. It's easy to make a crappy fish but difficult to make that crappy fish into a better fish again. I expect it to take years not months to do this. :facepalm: You just have to keep at it.
With your cory eggs, try not using anything but air on the eggs and see how they do. If that doesn't work and Methylene Blue doesn't work, try different water sources and types until you get it right. There is a reason why your eggs aren't hatching. You just have to figure it out. ;) My friend had a situation on his old farm where his water came from 2 wells on the property. One well was deeper than the other and certain fish didn't do as well with that deeper water as others. Go figure. The difference was only about 50-60 feet if I remember correctly. It took a while to figure that one out but once he knew, he knew what not to do as much as what TO do. That's what you need to be doing to. (y)

Hope this helps. (y)
 
Oh I'm getting a good hatch from the corys now that I add the methylene blue but I just can't keep them alive. I have somethings I'm going to try for next time. There's no shortage of eggs here. :)

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Ill gladly answer pleco questions... Just got a huuuuge bn hatch. Still workin with the gold nuggets & plecos. Just just just got my first pair of L018 GOLD NUGGETS

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Ill gladly answer pleco questions... Just got a huuuuge bn hatch. Still workin with the gold nuggets & plecos. Just just just got my first pair of L018 GOLD NUGGETS

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I started a thread under this breeding section with more info about my situation. If you wouldn't mind could you take a look at it? Otherwise if you'd rather I can pm you. I don't want to hijack Mr. Andy's thread.

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Oh I'm getting a good hatch from the corys now that I add the methylene blue but I just can't keep them alive. I have somethings I'm going to try for next time. There's no shortage of eggs here. :)

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How long after they hatch do you lose them? Do you get to start feeding them? If so, what are you feeding them? Are you doing daily water changes?
 
Well, I am sad to report that I still don't have the answer to my dying fry dilemma. :( The spawn I hoped would answer most of the questions now died as well. Is it the food, the fish, the water, the amount of feedings, etc? I can't answer them all. :facepalm:
I spent the better part of the past 5 hours reading old books, doing internet searches, calling old breeders I know ( there are a few still around :brows:) and still don't have a definitive answer. HOWEVER, I do have a couple of possibilities I didn't think of. :huh:
What was interesting was that in one forum, I was reading about this exact same situation that I am having and there was a number of interesting opinions on the cause. One by one I could eliminate them from my situation because it's the fish that DID have successful spawns as well as the ones who didn't that have the problem. It's not the machine, it's DEFINITELY the mechanic. :banghead::banghead:
I've ruled out the water as it's the same water as before all this and the recent tests all came up the same as before. The M. Blue shouldn't be the issue as I'm using the same dosage as before as well AND I had the same result with not using any M. Blue and with using a different antibacterial med and different source water.
So I've narrowed the choices down to 2 possibles: bacteria bloom in the fry tanks or the food I am feeding the parents. Based on what I was reading, the timing does seem to coincide with a bacterial bloom happening in the tank caused by the hatching eggs. Since I do remove the M Blue after hatching, there is an ability for a bacteria to be growing in the tanks and taking over the fry. I'm now going to try a couple of other things in the tank to see if there is a difference. I'm also letting the old Silver raise her current spawn as a comparison. The fish should be able to keep any bacterial issues off the fry and if they do free swim, it will tell me that I need to clean my tanks a bit more thoroughly between spawns. ( even tho I thought I was doing a bang up job but who knows? :blink: ) Any new spawn will now only go into a tank that has been bleached first.
What's interesting was the food part of this one discussion I read. My first reaction was it's not the cause here because Poppa is getting fry using foods that don't contain the ingredient in question. HOWEVER, the foods I was feeding in the beginning do but the food I switched to doesn't. The ingredient in question is actually a preservative but numerous posts stated that a few weeks after switching to foods containing this preservative the situation stopped and the fry were healthier again. So where's the emoticon for "Pulling one's hair out!!!"? What to believe, what to disregard, what to respond to?
So for now, I have a couple of things I am going to try. The good news is that I have only been going through this for about 3 months. Some of the posts were from people going through this for 7,8 and 12 months or longer so I don't feel so bad now. :brows:

In other news, I had a new pairing today. The remnants of the adult Barred Marbles spawned. This is a female who has spawned before with other males and the 2 "losers" from the silver female's new pairing. Unfortunately, 1 eye lost again so he has to come out. I was hoping he would be the male of choice as I do have some of his offspring from his first and only spawn so I know he "has/had the stuff". You can't always get what you want. :facepalm: I was surprised to see that the pleco eggs still have not hatched. I used the magnifying glass again and see that they do still have red veins showing and I saw some movement in the eggshell so hopefully tomorrow they will appear. Every day they don't hatch makes me nervous they will die off. :( I really don't want to have to wait another 3-4 weeks for their next spawn to see if the change in tankmates made a difference.

Anybody use Peroxide instead of M. Blue? Can you give me the dosage you used please?
 
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