RRP1501
Aquarium Advice Activist
WOW! Thanks Andy!
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Wigglers 2: Birth of a hatchery & everything Angels
- Thread starter Andy Sager
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RRP1501
Aquarium Advice Activist
I was wondering how do I clean the tank with the fresh spawn now here. During the first spawn, they both would attack the vacuum when I got within 1/2 a tank of the slate. I'm going to have to clean the tank and do water changes but I'm a little apprehensive about doing it because I don't want to stress them. I apologize for all the questions but I want to get this right.
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Andy Sager
Aquarium Advice Addict
Your big cleaning schedule needs to change to only when the parents aren't working a spawn. As for the daily routine to clean up the uneaten food, I use a piece of 3/16" rigid tubing attached to airline tubing to target clean the leftover food. It will be the same setup as you use for the baby brine shrimp siphon just with longer pieces of tubing. By using this smaller tubing, you will be able to not suck up the fry and you will only be doing maybe 10% of volume water changes almost daily so the water should not get too dirty anyway. Do your vacuuming when the fry are large enough not to get sucked up by it.
You will find as you get further along that the fish will spawn on somewhat of a regular schedule. What you should do is keep track of how many days between spawn and do a thorough cleaning the day before you expect them to spawn. This way, the tank should be nice & clean for the period you are not doing major water changes.
Hope this helps
RRP1501
Aquarium Advice Activist
Thanks again Andy. I've started keeping track of the spawn for that very reason. Thanks for the tips. I guess by the size of the tubing it wouldn't scare them as much either. I posted a video on Facebook of them spawning. It's not the clearest because of the paint I've covered the sides of the tank so as not to spook them but it is cool to watch them! I'll keep all posted on the status of the fry! Ray
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RRP1501
Aquarium Advice Activist
Well, It looks like this spawn didn't take. I got up this morning and most of the eggs are white. There might be 2 or 3 still dark, so I'll keep up hope. I hope these two get their act together soon!
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Andy Sager
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Time for a little hatchery update?
Things are not all going well. I still have not had a single spawn survive lately and it's frustrating. I did get the upper level of the grow out rack up and the 7 tanks are now being water tested in place. The drain line is in and not leaking, the air line just needs to have some valves installed and the water line cut into the existing system. So I should be able to get that all done in 1 day or less.
I had a pair of the Black lace Veils pair off and spawn. I really am not sure this is a male/female pair tho. If someone had posted a picture of these fish, my guess would have been that they were both females. Unfortunately, I waited a day too long to do the fertility test and the whole spawn died anyway. The spawn was small enough to consider this not to be 2 females and I only got to see one fish's tube and it was definitely a female but man, those fins on the other one sure look female to me
and there is no head bump either. Anyway, the next spawn will hopefully be more conclusive.
I lost the male Black Lace veil who was paired with the Barred Marble. I misread his actions as being submissive to the female but he was actually in some internal distress. I tried to save him but it was too late.
I've had to separate 3 pairs now from the females fighting with the males. 2 pairs were ones that I was letting parent raise the eggs so I didn't have to mess with them. The Silver female beat the snot out of the big Marble Veil male and the Barred Marble female was attacking the male 1/2 Black as he was trying to attend to their spawn. So I have a divider in those tanks and there are still some wigglers in there so we will see what happens regarding them swimming. I'm just wondering if the fish are trying to change mates due to lack of success of their spawns? Just a theory but it kind of makes sense when the pairs with eggs I pull haven't had any issues post spawn. HHmmmmm
Last of the bad newsThe male 1/2 Black from the second pair has been stricken with sleeping disease. The day after his last spawn, he was acting like he was in a daze. The continued the next day as well and then on day 3, he was laying on his side at the bottom of the tank. He was never hyperventilating and showed no outward signs of the condition sans the dazed look. After consulting my new disease books, I determined that the fish had dynoflagellates ( in his blood ) and is now being medicated. He is still alive, 4 days later, but I can still see him laying on the bottom of the tank. So my quest to get these 1/2 blacks to be a functioning pair may not come to pass. I have been told, however, there is a spawn of 1/2 black veils at my friend's place and as soon as they express, I should be getting some so all is not lost yet.
I have been holding some of my first babies from the new hatchery as new potential breeders and to share with my buddy for all the fish he has given me and wouldn't you know it, I got a pair already. In a very congested tank, I noticed a female, tube exposed and with a skinny belly, fanning the drain pipe. I looked as hard as I could and didn't see any eggs tho. I watched for a little bit and noticed a definite male protecting her so I have moved them into their own tank. Now I am waiting for their next spawn to see some eggs because there were no eggs on the pipe. This pair will actually be a test pair as I will explain in a minute.
The fish in the 40 gal appear to also be pairing off ( or starting to.) I've noticed 2 of the male Golds squaring off while a female Gold has been staying close. However, I also have noticed a female Black being defended by a Gold AND a Zebra so I just decided to put some slates in the tank and will separate out any pairs that form into other tanks. These will also be test pairs.
So, regarding this continued lack of swimming fry, I decided to grab a cigar and put on my "Columbo" trench coat and hat and play detective for real now. ( For all you youngsters, Columbo was a TV detective way back when. ) Sadly, my second "Ace in the hole" pair also had an unsuccessful spawn. This time, a few fry did get to be free swimming while the rest of the spawn died. So the issues with the other fish may not be just genetics as this pair was a breeding machine. Right now, I have more tanks and pools filled with their fry than from any other pair so it's not genetics here. So what do all these pairs have in common? My last successful spawn was back in early July. Some thing changed after then and I think I figured it out. In mid May, after I returned from my trip, I had an issue with one of my legs and I was not able to be on it as much. At that time I decided to switch to a once a week water changing schedule instead of 2 times per week. I also later switched the breeder's feed. I was using Omega One flakes, FD Tubifex and frozen Brine shrimp. I switched to a "breeder's blend" of flake food and was feeding it 2 times per day as directed which left no feeding for the tubifex as I always follow those with brine shrimp to keep their digestive systems flowing. This feed change started in early July. So now, all the breeders, including the new Black lace veils, whether from me or my friend, have a member in the pair that has been feeding on this new flake since July. Curious isn't it? I had not been feeding the tubifex as much in May or June yet I was still getting good spawns. So my hunch is that this new flake is actually the problem. The new pair of Marbles and the fish in the 40 have never been given this breeder's blend and I am going to keep it that way and see what happens. It may still take a few spawns to know for sure but if I get swimmers from these fish, it's kind of the smoking gun don't you think? The only possible problem is that these fish have been feeding on a growth flake by this same company but it has a higher protein level than the breeder's blend which almost matches the Omega One flakes. So if the problem is lack of protein and conditioning, these fish should be okay with this growth flake. So I've switched back to a twice a week water change schedule and started feeding the worms and brine again. Hopefully, this will get everybody back into shape and working again. I'll keep y'all posted.
Things are not all going well. I still have not had a single spawn survive lately and it's frustrating. I did get the upper level of the grow out rack up and the 7 tanks are now being water tested in place. The drain line is in and not leaking, the air line just needs to have some valves installed and the water line cut into the existing system. So I should be able to get that all done in 1 day or less.
I had a pair of the Black lace Veils pair off and spawn. I really am not sure this is a male/female pair tho. If someone had posted a picture of these fish, my guess would have been that they were both females. Unfortunately, I waited a day too long to do the fertility test and the whole spawn died anyway. The spawn was small enough to consider this not to be 2 females and I only got to see one fish's tube and it was definitely a female but man, those fins on the other one sure look female to me
and there is no head bump either. Anyway, the next spawn will hopefully be more conclusive. I lost the male Black Lace veil who was paired with the Barred Marble. I misread his actions as being submissive to the female but he was actually in some internal distress. I tried to save him but it was too late.
I've had to separate 3 pairs now from the females fighting with the males. 2 pairs were ones that I was letting parent raise the eggs so I didn't have to mess with them. The Silver female beat the snot out of the big Marble Veil male and the Barred Marble female was attacking the male 1/2 Black as he was trying to attend to their spawn. So I have a divider in those tanks and there are still some wigglers in there so we will see what happens regarding them swimming. I'm just wondering if the fish are trying to change mates due to lack of success of their spawns? Just a theory but it kind of makes sense when the pairs with eggs I pull haven't had any issues post spawn. HHmmmmm
Last of the bad news
The male 1/2 Black from the second pair has been stricken with sleeping disease. The day after his last spawn, he was acting like he was in a daze. The continued the next day as well and then on day 3, he was laying on his side at the bottom of the tank. He was never hyperventilating and showed no outward signs of the condition sans the dazed look. After consulting my new disease books, I determined that the fish had dynoflagellates ( in his blood ) and is now being medicated. He is still alive, 4 days later, but I can still see him laying on the bottom of the tank. So my quest to get these 1/2 blacks to be a functioning pair may not come to pass. I have been told, however, there is a spawn of 1/2 black veils at my friend's place and as soon as they express, I should be getting some so all is not lost yet. I have been holding some of my first babies from the new hatchery as new potential breeders and to share with my buddy for all the fish he has given me and wouldn't you know it, I got a pair already. In a very congested tank, I noticed a female, tube exposed and with a skinny belly, fanning the drain pipe. I looked as hard as I could and didn't see any eggs tho. I watched for a little bit and noticed a definite male protecting her so I have moved them into their own tank. Now I am waiting for their next spawn to see some eggs because there were no eggs on the pipe. This pair will actually be a test pair as I will explain in a minute.
The fish in the 40 gal appear to also be pairing off ( or starting to.) I've noticed 2 of the male Golds squaring off while a female Gold has been staying close. However, I also have noticed a female Black being defended by a Gold AND a Zebra so I just decided to put some slates in the tank and will separate out any pairs that form into other tanks. These will also be test pairs.
So, regarding this continued lack of swimming fry, I decided to grab a cigar and put on my "Columbo" trench coat and hat and play detective for real now. ( For all you youngsters, Columbo was a TV detective way back when.
) Sadly, my second "Ace in the hole" pair also had an unsuccessful spawn. This time, a few fry did get to be free swimming while the rest of the spawn died. So the issues with the other fish may not be just genetics as this pair was a breeding machine. Right now, I have more tanks and pools filled with their fry than from any other pair so it's not genetics here. So what do all these pairs have in common? My last successful spawn was back in early July. Some thing changed after then and I think I figured it out. In mid May, after I returned from my trip, I had an issue with one of my legs and I was not able to be on it as much. At that time I decided to switch to a once a week water changing schedule instead of 2 times per week. I also later switched the breeder's feed. I was using Omega One flakes, FD Tubifex and frozen Brine shrimp. I switched to a "breeder's blend" of flake food and was feeding it 2 times per day as directed which left no feeding for the tubifex as I always follow those with brine shrimp to keep their digestive systems flowing. This feed change started in early July. So now, all the breeders, including the new Black lace veils, whether from me or my friend, have a member in the pair that has been feeding on this new flake since July. Curious isn't it? I had not been feeding the tubifex as much in May or June yet I was still getting good spawns. So my hunch is that this new flake is actually the problem. The new pair of Marbles and the fish in the 40 have never been given this breeder's blend and I am going to keep it that way and see what happens. It may still take a few spawns to know for sure but if I get swimmers from these fish, it's kind of the smoking gun don't you think? The only possible problem is that these fish have been feeding on a growth flake by this same company but it has a higher protein level than the breeder's blend which almost matches the Omega One flakes. So if the problem is lack of protein and conditioning, these fish should be okay with this growth flake. So I've switched back to a twice a week water change schedule and started feeding the worms and brine again. Hopefully, this will get everybody back into shape and working again. I'll keep y'all posted. 
emilygupps
Aquarium Advice FINatic
Andy I'm sorry for your failed batches of fry. I hope you can keep getting it figured out! And I'm jealous of your fish room!
Our two batches of babies have been combined and moved to a 50g to grow out. Some of the older ones are getting a very nice lace pattern in their fins. They were too much work in separate tanks and we couldn't justify moving the big ones to the 50g and putting 3x as many younger ones in the 17.
The female is living peacefully now with the unknown pearl scale. I'm hoping for no spawns for a while. The hubby needs a break.
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Our two batches of babies have been combined and moved to a 50g to grow out. Some of the older ones are getting a very nice lace pattern in their fins. They were too much work in separate tanks and we couldn't justify moving the big ones to the 50g and putting 3x as many younger ones in the 17.
The female is living peacefully now with the unknown pearl scale. I'm hoping for no spawns for a while. The hubby needs a break.
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Bdonaldson
Aquarium Advice Addict
Sorry for all the troubles you are having Andy. Sounds like you are on top of it though. I hope it all works out for you and you can get your angels producing some good fry.
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RRP1501
Aquarium Advice Activist
I bought out a breeder's building. Unfortunately, he died and the house was then sold. The new owners need the building for other purposes. Once I have placed all the tanks I can use, I will be running a sale. Used tanks anyone?? CHEAP!!!!
Andy how much for a few tanks. I may be in the market for 8 20 gallon tanks or a little larger. What would you suggest for breeding 29?
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Andy Sager
Aquarium Advice Addict
Thanks for the well wishes. It all is starting to really look like it's the food. The second spawn from the new & old gold marbles has been, more or less, a bust. This has to be because of the food. It's the only real difference from what I was doing in the past and making all these other babies I have here now. We will see. I'm ordering another food for the breeders today so fingers crossed.
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Andy Sager
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RRP1501
Aquarium Advice Activist
I have a gold and a Koi in my community tank that are chasing all the other fish at times. They also just hang around in one part of the tank together. I have not seen any tubes or other signs than the territorial. The Gold is about 7-8 months and I'm not sure how old the Koi is. Got hm from a guy in NC. Can they be mating? Haven't seen any eggs either so I'm a little confused as to what is happening?
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Andy Sager
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Angelfish pair off ( create a mating bond) before they start to actually spawn so you are probably seeing that. Once the chasing really becomes aggressive, I would either separate the pair into another tank or remove the other fish from the community tank. It will be better for both of them no matter what you do.
RRP1501
Aquarium Advice Activist
Thank you!
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Andy Sager
Aquarium Advice Addict
Well, was another possible banner day in the hatchery. In the past 24 hours, I've had 4 spawns. My 2 "stand by" pairs, the Zebra lace and her new Black mate and today, I finally removed the see through divider from the new Zebra Lace veil and Black Lace veil because her tube was out so I wanted to see if she would spawn with him or just beat him up again. Thankfully they spawned. 
I'm tempted to do a fertility test on this spawn but I doubt the fry will be viable and so I'd be taking a chance that she will beat him for losing the spawn. It's definitely his first ever spawn so I'm sure there will be more.
So that's it for now.
I'm tempted to do a fertility test on this spawn but I doubt the fry will be viable and so I'd be taking a chance that she will beat him for losing the spawn. It's definitely his first ever spawn so I'm sure there will be more. So that's it for now.
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Andy Sager
Aquarium Advice Addict
I've been a little under the weather these past few days and other than some lively conversations on here, I haven' done much with the hatchery. All the spawns were duds ( as expected) with the exception of some exciting news. My new Zebra Lace veil spawned with a new Black Lace veil ( which is actually a brother to the one that died) and even tho I didn't pull the spawn, I did see a couple of wigglers tonight. So there's hope for the future. At least I know they are a fertile pair.
I'm hoping that a good month of quality food will bring these fish back to good form so I am not overly depressed as to the outcomes of these current spawns. Time will tell.
At least I know they are a fertile pair. I'm hoping that a good month of quality food will bring these fish back to good form so I am not overly depressed as to the outcomes of these current spawns. Time will tell.
brennae
Aquarium Advice Addict
Hope you're feeling better Andy!
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Bdonaldson
Aquarium Advice Addict
Praying for a quick recovery Andy.
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RRP1501
Aquarium Advice Activist
Hope all is well soon Andy.
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