Wigglers 2: Birth of a hatchery & everything Angels

[Andy Sager]

Preech on brother.

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You say this now??

He makes a mental note perma link 1258.......

I should have known!

Well, if you guys had been following me in the original wigglers thread as well as this one, you would have known this already. Breeding fish is not for the timid. Ever notice that there are many who breed fish but few who do it successfully repetitively? As I mentioned to a member in another thread, there s a big difference between having fish spawn in a tank by surprise and making a fish spawn when you want them to. Hobbyists do the former, Breeders do the latter. ( FYI: You guys fit the breeder category. )

It just so happens that you guys are working with Cichlids, and fussy ones at that, so you are going to experience more issues than say, a Gourami, Tetra or Barb breeder would. I've done them so I know. Cichlids can be brutal when they breed. It can be a real pain for sure. Just look at this issue I am dealing with. In 50 years, I have never had this kind of thing happen to me for more than a spawn or 2. Now, it's almost 5 months and many, many, many,many, many spawns. It's only my experience and stubbornness that I haven't just chucked all these breeders and started fresh. Talk about doing the easy thing. Most of the fish I bought to start this all with in 2013 were breeding within 3-4 months ( That's less time than I have been trying to fix these here now.) But you learn things along the way. What did I relearn? "DON'T MESS WITH SUCCESS!!!" I had the formula. It was going gangbusters!!! Then I switched 1 thing then another and it all went to pot. Now, hopefully, I'm making that pot bloom again.

So all I can say is, if you have something that was working and now it's not, look at everything when it was working and find the difference between then and now. Something had to have changed. Your job is to figure out what. In the case of cichlids, you also need to have hospital tanks available all the time.

Hope this helps

 

[Andy Sager]

So here's a little update: I had 3 Angel spawns hatch today. This now makes 6 spawns that are in wiggler stage and I have no tanks available to put 4 of them in when /if they swim. How's that for pessimism? I'm hoping Murphy's law kicks in here and because I don't have tanks at the ready, all these fry will need them. I'll know in about 4 more days on 3 and 6 or 7 on today's wigglers.

I've noticed a couple of things that may be an issue. 2 spawns contain Barred Marble fish. 1 pair is a single fish mated to a non sibling while the other is a sibling pair. What's happening is that the wigglers from the pair, now hatched 4 days ago, don't look as healthy or as vigorous as the other wigglers and the same goes for the other spawn. With that spawn, even the eggs didn't stay on the slate very well or for very long after I moved it. Thankfully, I did get some hatch from it so the fertility portion of the test is done. But it's a little peculiar that the spawns from non Barred Marble fish seem so much healthier. The next question is will the others swim and these not. THEN I will know that something may be up and I need to rethink the Barred Marble line as a viable line to continue.

At last count, yesterday, I saw 38 Pleco fry from the last spawn still going strong. It's so encouraging to see this in the midst of the Angel issues. At least I know I am doing something right. Still don't have any cory eggs but I reset up the albinos in the breeding tank and will start changing water on them over the weekend.

The guppy fry are going good from 1 of the females but not so good from the other. The first batch was mostly misshapen fry while the second is mostly healthy normal fry. I can see some of the fry being larger, like the Mother, while others are more black, like the Father. I do need to get these fry separated before they start reproducing. Thankfully, again, they are only about 6 weeks old so I have a couple days still. I haven't seen any gonopodiums yet but I do see some that look like they may just develop them.

The 2 tanks of Tetras are still going great. The male Phantoms are already coloring up but they are also tearing each other up a bit. Looks like some spawning might be trying to happen but I want to discourage this for now. I'm not set up for them yet. Went out and bought some plants and gravel to make some more long term gender tanks. This way, I only have to have 2 tanks instead of 4 for the 2 types.

So that's it for now. More to come in a few days.

 

[FWFishTanks]

So here's a little update: I had 3 Angel spawns hatch today. This now makes 6 spawns that are in wiggler stage and I have no tanks available to put 4 of them in when /if they swim. How's that for pessimism? I'm hoping Murphy's law kicks in here and because I don't have tanks at the ready, all these fry will need them. I'll know in about 4 more days on 3 and 6 or 7 on today's wigglers.

I've noticed a couple of things that may be an issue. 2 spawns contain Barred Marble fish. 1 pair is a single fish mated to a non sibling while the other is a sibling pair. What's happening is that the wigglers from the pair, now hatched 4 days ago, don't look as healthy or as vigorous as the other wigglers and the same goes for the other spawn. With that spawn, even the eggs didn't stay on the slate very well or for very long after I moved it. Thankfully, I did get some hatch from it so the fertility portion of the test is done. But it's a little peculiar that the spawns from non Barred Marble fish seem so much healthier. The next question is will the others swim and these not. THEN I will know that something may be up and I need to rethink the Barred Marble line as a viable line to continue.

At last count, yesterday, I saw 38 Pleco fry from the last spawn still going strong. It's so encouraging to see this in the midst of the Angel issues. At least I know I am doing something right. Still don't have any cory eggs but I reset up the albinos in the breeding tank and will start changing water on them over the weekend.

The guppy fry are going good from 1 of the females but not so good from the other. The first batch was mostly misshapen fry while the second is mostly healthy normal fry. I can see some of the fry being larger, like the Mother, while others are more black, like the Father. I do need to get these fry separated before they start reproducing. Thankfully, again, they are only about 6 weeks old so I have a couple days still. I haven't seen any gonopodiums yet but I do see some that look like they may just develop them.

The 2 tanks of Tetras are still going great. The male Phantoms are already coloring up but they are also tearing each other up a bit. Looks like some spawning might be trying to happen but I want to discourage this for now. I'm not set up for them yet. Went out and bought some plants and gravel to make some more long term gender tanks. This way, I only have to have 2 tanks instead of 4 for the 2 types.

So that's it for now. More to come in a few days.

So what guppies are you breeding? Any strains in pacticular?

 

[Andy Sager]

These are 3/4 Black Guppies from my friend. I'm just trying to get some size back into their genepool because they have been inbreeding for over a decade in a pool. They are nice, produce only 3/4 Black fish but are smaller in size than the average Guppy due to the breeding.

 

[brennae]

Andy, what's the difference between 3/4 black and say a Moscow?

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[brennae]

So I just Googled the answer to my own question but, does the 3/4 have to be a certain color for the 1/4 part? Is it always silver?

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[Andy Sager]

So I just Googled the answer to my own question but, does the 3/4 have to be a certain color for the 1/4 part? Is it always silver?

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I can't say for all Guppies but with these, the only other color is that the males have a pink line behind the eye but the females are just silver.

 

[FWFishTanks]

So I just Googled the answer to my own question but, does the 3/4 have to be a certain color for the 1/4 part? Is it always silver?

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I believe they can be any color for the remaining 1/4

 

[Andy Sager]

I spent the better part of 6 hours yesterday with MY fish expert discussing my current situation with the Angel fry as it looks like something else is at work here. The first 4 sets of wigglers passed as did 1 of the last 3 and 1/2 of another. It's too soon to tell for sure on the old pair's spawn but, with the other results, I'm not very optimistic. So, I brought him some of my water to try and hatch out some of his fish in it to see if it's something in the water that doesn't come up in the tests I can run. ( Man, I wish I still had access to a gaschromatograph. ) He was very impressed on how clean my water was ( it came straight from the tap) and how little smell there was to it. We discussed a lot of things that it could be ( and I shot many of them down with evidence that it couldn't be "that") and I am going to do a more scientific approach with a number of experiments on the existing fish so we will see what happens.

I did see my next fish , when I have the room. He had some Platinum Veils that still need to grow some. Once I get my place straightened out, I know I get at least a pair. Plus, he is holding some 1/2 Black Veils for me as well. Now I am REALLY anxious to get this resolved.

So for now, it's feed the fish and change their water.

 

[RRP1501]

Andy, I'm taking my first fish to the pet store. They are buying all my first batch. Around 100 fish are still alive and VERY healthy! What would be the better, more professional way to deliver them. In several 5 gallon buckets with air stones in them or in separate bags. And if in bags, how many in a bag? They are approx quarter size.


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[Andy Sager]

Andy, I'm taking my first fish to the pet store. They are buying all my first batch. Around 100 fish are still alive and VERY healthy! What would be the better, more professional way to deliver them. In several 5 gallon buckets with air stones in them or in separate bags. And if in bags, how many in a bag? They are approx quarter size.


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Congrats on your first sale.

The more professional way (or what the stores are used to) is to use plastic fish bags. How many per bag depends on how long they will be in the bag and whether you are using oxygen, breather bags or just air. I'm currently using 12" x 18" bags from ULINE (uline.com) and just air so I only allow a 3 hour window for them to be closed up in the bag.

 

[RRP1501]

Ok. I have Seachem bags I found online. There 22" long and only 8" wide. I'm figuring maybe 10 per bag. They'll only be in there for 2-3 hours. Is that ok?


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[Andy Sager]

Ok. I have Seachem bags I found online. There 22" long and only 8" wide. I'm figuring maybe 10 per bag. They'll only be in there for 2-3 hours. Is that ok?


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You'll probably need to put the bags sideways to let the fish spread out. To know for sure, do a trial run. Put the 10 in the bag tonight and watch them for the 3 hours. If you see they start stressing out before the 3 hours, there's your answer.

 

[RRP1501]

Wigglers 2: Birth of a hatchery & everything Angels

Ok


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[Andy Sager]

There is an unwritten rule that says "Timing, is everything". I had that today for sure.
Today was water change day. Being a little lazy, I did the bottom 2 rows on the breeder rack and was going to do the top row with the breeders after dinner. Well, as I was filling up the last tank before my break, I saw the Red Cap scraping the glass because the slate had not been replaced yet. Not wanting them to spawn before the WC, I did a quick WC and put in a slate then went to dinner. Came back and there was a nice large spawn on the slate. Whew!!! Thankfully, I had already cleaned out the two 2 1/2 gal tanks so at least I had a tank to move the spawn into. Fingers crossed on this one as it's the first spawn under a new experiment. It's actually the second but the first may have been a little too late so I'm not counting it yet.
I saw my first male in the Guppy fry so I have to get the other tanks ready soon so I can control any breeding.
I also had a nice large spawn from the Albino Cories this morning. I removed the breeders and kept the eggs in the tank. Gonna see what happens. There is a lot of eggs and they are scattered everywhere. I just need 1 to hatch so I know I have some good fish.

In keeping with the "Timing" theme, I finished doing my WCs and put the hose away just a minute before the lights went out for the night. I didn't make it out of the row yet when the lights went out. Talk about TIMING!!!

 

[Laeris]

Well played, sir. Well played. I can't wait to see how it goes!

 

[sinibotia]

Andy, my first batch of fry from the koi pair is now taking flake! Is it ok to switch them to completely flake over the next week or so?

 

[Andy Sager]

Andy, my first batch of fry from the koi pair is now taking flake! Is it ok to switch them to completely flake over the next week or so?

If they are at that point, you might want to mix decapsulated brine shrimp eggs with the flake for some added nutrition. This is going to be an experiment for you because there is no hard and fast rule that at "X" days you switch the fry to "Y" foods. I suggest you keep a written log and record what happens to the fry as to growth, deformity rates/percentages and overall health of the fry with each food as you go. You may find that you need to feed BBS longer or it may not matter. The next batch or batches will be your comparisons. Try different time frames for each ones so you see if it makes a difference. Only the fish will tell you for sure. Once you have the data, it's "Lather, Rinse, Repeat."

 

[Andy Sager]

Well, 24ish hours in and the Cory and Red Cap eggs still look good. Not counting my chickens yet but so far so good.

 

[RRP1501]

Andy, when do you release the fry from the hatching bowl into the tank? They are just starting to get ready to free swim so I think all is going well at this point and my main breeders are doing well with their eggs again. Just hope my Phillipian Blues start breeding in a few months , but that's still a ways off.


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