Wigglers 2: Birth of a hatchery & everything Angels

[Andy Sager]

Okay, just to make this clear, I have not made a "FINAL" decision as to what to do as there are still experiments going on to see if it's feasible to continue with the Angels. But I'm an old dog and know some old tricks so all may still not be lost. My original intention was to come on here to help others do them "right" not just do them. The basic knowledge base doesn't change whether I am doing them or not however, with doing them myself, I now see some of the issues that are new versus old so I am better equipped to help those doing them. If/when I get this fixed, I will be better able to help others with similar situations and that was my original goal. But now that I have thousands of dollars invested into this venture, I need it to be profitable and so that has to be the bottom line. Whether it be Guppies or Plecos or Angels or Cories doesn't really matter to me as I love doing them all. Angels are just my passion and in reality, WILD Angels are the only ones I really want to do opposed to what is available on the market today. But those are not as easy to come by so I have to start somewhere.

So don't everyone panic just yet. I'm a long way from finished.

To answer some other points, No, my neighbors shouldn't be having any effect on me as they are East and South of me and our water runs North to South so their Southern neighbors would be effected more than I would be. Also, the closer farms are East of me and water takes some time to trickle down to the aquapher so it has to be coming from areas way North of me and I am having some suspicions but would not be able to verify without some high tech testing. Since I drink filtered water in the house and it tests fine, it's only the fish I am concerned about.

No Sini, people usually die to come to me not go to the frozen North so my butt is firmly entrenched in Florida. Besides, I couldn't take the cold for too long. Yours is a great state to visit "but I wouldn't want to live there." Also, the water in mid state of Florida is why the fish farmers all moved to there so why would I leave. Remember, most of the fish you get come through here so here is just fine for the fish too.

So, in closing, let me just add that THIS is just an example of how things can be going great one day and be a disaster the next so never be too overconfident that it can't happen to you. If you are in this long enough, it happens to everyone at least once. Now team, Let's go change some water!!!!!

 

[skylane]

Right on Andy, that's why I follow you brother to the point as always.
Your KUNG Fu is strong old one !!![emoji38]

Clem

 

[Andy Sager]

Well today was another day of successes and failures. I got swimmers in the Red Cap spawn but only 4 that I can see. Now, I am wondering more WHY did these survive and the other die? It's very confusing.
Then I saw the Black/ Zebra lace spawn go from mostly alive to mostly dead again. There's a good chance I know what happened but too late to do anything about it now so it will have to wait for the next spawn.

So it's back to the drawing board again but this time, I have some more information so hopefully, a better outcome will be shortly coming.

 

[RRP1501]

well the Cannibals have let there fry live!!! Now I hope they raise them well!


Sent from my iPhone using Aquarium Advice

 

[Andy Sager]

Sounds like they are "getting with the program." Good luck

 

[sinibotia]

Hey Andy, how often do you feed angelfish juveniles? I've got some 4 week old fry and I'm wondering if I should start feeding them less often. I've been feeding all my fry 3-5 times a day so far.

 

[RRP1501]

Sounds like they are "getting with the program." Good luck

Thank you Andy


Sent from my iPhone using Aquarium Advice

 

[Andy Sager]

Hey Andy, how often do you feed angelfish juveniles? I've got some 4 week old fry and I'm wondering if I should start feeding them less often. I've been feeding all my fry 3-5 times a day so far.

There's nothing wrong with feeding the fish, juvenile or adult, 3- 5 times per day as long as you spread out how much food you feed. Consider this example: Say you feed a combined 1 teaspoon full of food per day and your fish eat it all by day's end, you would feed 1/5 of a teaspoon 5 times per day or 1/3 teaspoon 3 times per day. The bottom line is that they are getting the same amount of food without wasting. Make sense?
When raising the fish for sale or growth, the more often you feed them, the faster they will grow so I wouldn't change the amount of times but just the amount at each feeding. You will also find that you'll need to increase the amount of food as the fish grow not reduce it. So more often is easier to reduce waste.

My adults still get fed 3 times per day. Different foods at each feeding. My babies get 3-4 times per day depending on what day and how much other stuff I have going on that day. For example, today is water change day so they all will miss at least 1 feeding today. ( You just happen to catch me checking in on AA while I rest my weary feet. )

 

[Andy Sager]

Got a little shocker today which leads me to ask: Does anyone know if the following gives off Ammonium Gas? Freezers, Air Conditioners ( new/2015 models) pressure treated lumber, Stryofoam, Mold/ Mildew or Cardboard. At this point, unless something peed on my air compressor, then it has to be one of these. I got a high ammonia reading in a jar of eggs that were in pure rain water. I highly doubt the water started out that high since tests on other rain water from the same storm collected from a dirtier container came up negative for it so it's coming from the building I have another couple of test spawns going so we will see if I get different results.

Thanks

 

[Yagonyonok]

I know that ammonia is commonly used as a refrigerant, and has been for quite some time. What make & model of the freezer or A/C unit? I'm not sure if the manufacturers will list what their refrigerant is or not, but it can't hurt to look.

 

[mikey5290]

True, ammonia has been used in refrigeration for a long time although it is mainly used in industrial situations as there are far less dangerous refrigerants for residential or even light commercial use. (the pure ammonia for refrigeration is not your everyday hardware store variety).

I know that doesn't help you out Andy, but I really don't think any "modern" residential appliance would be using ammonia. Whether the refrigerant they use would affect water quality I really have no idea.

A couple of years ago we lived out in the country and I know some of the farmers used ammonia. I was told they used it for fertilizer or to somehow make the fertilizer more efficient. Again I am no expert in this and only going by what I was told by one of the locals. I have no idea how it was applied but I know I saw the large holding tanks clearly labelled as ammonia. Is it possible local farms are using the same practice and perhaps they spray it; maybe drifting in the air onto your property.
I know that sounds far fetched but any ideas that lead you to figure out your mystery need to be looked at.

 

[ghyti]

Can't help much with your problem, but I have an ammonia story. I have a dehumidifier, went to use the water (it's just distilled water right) and soon found out it was over 8ppm ammonia. Have no idea where the ammonia came from but certainly couldn't use the dehumidifier water for fish. I think air conditioners use the same technology, so that might be your source.

 

[Andy Sager]

I know that ammonia is commonly used as a refrigerant, and has been for quite some time. What make & model of the freezer or A/C unit? I'm not sure if the manufacturers will list what their refrigerant is or not, but it can't hurt to look.

True, ammonia has been used in refrigeration for a long time although it is mainly used in industrial situations as there are far less dangerous refrigerants for residential or even light commercial use. (the pure ammonia for refrigeration is not your everyday hardware store variety).

I know that doesn't help you out Andy, but I really don't think any "modern" residential appliance would be using ammonia. Whether the refrigerant they use would affect water quality I really have no idea.

A couple of years ago we lived out in the country and I know some of the farmers used ammonia. I was told they used it for fertilizer or to somehow make the fertilizer more efficient. Again I am no expert in this and only going by what I was told by one of the locals. I have no idea how it was applied but I know I saw the large holding tanks clearly labelled as ammonia. Is it possible local farms are using the same practice and perhaps they spray it; maybe drifting in the air onto your property.
I know that sounds far fetched but any ideas that lead you to figure out your mystery need to be looked at.

Can't help much with your problem, but I have an ammonia story. I have a dehumidifier, went to use the water (it's just distilled water right) and soon found out it was over 8ppm ammonia. Have no idea where the ammonia came from but certainly couldn't use the dehumidifier water for fish. I think air conditioners use the same technology, so that might be your source.

Thanks guys for that. It just goes to show that when you have things go wrong, you have to look at so many things that could be the reason. I thought we had it figured out to something in the water. All the reasons and rational pointed there. But now, I'm not so sure. After a little experiment last night, I have confirmed ( in my mind at least) that it's in the air and not from the water. Here's why: I used fresh rain water for one spawn and it had ammonia in it the next day. ( The eggs haven't hatched yet) I took water from a tank with aeration and ammochips , which showed no ammonia after 2 days of running, to do a water change on the rain water and added another baggie of Ammochips into the jar and today the ammonia level was 0. (I later used the tank for another spawn of eggs as a control.) I then took some more of that tank water and set it up in a clean bucket and set up all three places ( The jar with eggs, the tank with eggs and the plain water bucket) all on a separate air pump that was wrapped in a carbon filled bag so that the air had to go through the carbon to get into the pump to make the bubbles. My thought was that if the compressor was puting the ammonia into the water, I would just extend the intake outside the building for fresh air. Well this morning, the 2 tanks with chips with eggs had 0 ammonia but the bucket had ammonia in it so it has to be in the gas exchange from the bubbles NOT the origination of the bubbles. To test this, I have another 2 tanks of clean water in which one has no aeration and the other had just a small amount of air for a few hours, today, when I tested, the tank with no air had a film over the top of the water and an ammonia reading of just over 0 while the tank with some air for a few hours also had the film on the water and a higher ammonia level than the one with no aeration. So, you think we solved the problem? I do. So now, I have to figure out which is the cause. Due to the climate control features of this building, I cannot add circulating air from outside to it so if I don't use the A/C in at least the summer, I'll cook in here. If it's the freezer, I can always move that to another place outside the building. But the real question is: I'm breathing this stuff for 8-12 hours daily so what is it doing to me?


On a brighter note, I saw the plecos both in their tube this A.M. so hopefully I'll have some more pleco eggs this afternoon.

 

[Yagonyonok]

Deleted... I really should read a little more clearly before posting.

 

[Andy Sager]

Deleted... I really should read a little more clearly before posting.

I saw your original post and YES, I had the same thought which was why I used one of my other air pumps to eliminate the compressor and lines as the problem source. So short of setting up another "birthing" room in the house as I did the last 2 summers, I'll need to either eliminate the source from inside the place ( boy, I hope it's not the A/C ) or do a lot of water changing from a cleaner water source.

On the Pleco front, no action yet. I did notice the 2 fish inside the tube earlier today and yesterday he was cleaning the tube but I guess it wasn't clean enough for her liking. I noticed tonight that it looks cleaner now than it did before. Guess he had to bring out a bigger broom. Fingers crossed for tonight.

 

[Gillie]

Andy, is it typical for newly free swimming fry to be about 1.5 mm long? They seem a little small to me.

Sent from my LGLS770 using Aquarium Advice mobile app

 

[sinibotia]

Andy, is it typical for newly free swimming fry to be about 1.5 mm long? They seem a little small to me.

Sent from my LGLS770 using Aquarium Advice mobile app

My last batch of fry was that small but they've turned out fine... Can't say if it's normal.

 

[Andy Sager]

Andy, is it typical for newly free swimming fry to be about 1.5 mm long? They seem a little small to me.

Sent from my LGLS770 using Aquarium Advice mobile app

It actually can depend on the size and age of the breeders and the color variety. Some of the newer colors and varieties make smaller fry because they are themselves smaller fish. So small in fact, that they can't handle newly hatched brine shrimp as a first food. In some of the older types, when the pair starts breeding at an early age, their eggs and subsequent fry also are smaller but as the pair grows, so do the eggs which also leads to the fry being larger as well. This is why I try not to let fish less than a year old ( on average) breed as the fry are just too much extra work ( for me at least. )
On a side note, this is one of the reasons I like to feed newly hatched brine shrimp to my fry as a first food. You can't mistake their orange bellies from eating it and it's visual proof that they are in fact eating at all. For me, if I don't see orange bellies that first day, I know to add some live plants to the tank in hopes that some infusoria is available on the plants for the fry to eat. If I see that they need that, I'll note to have some green water available for the next spawn.

 

[RRP1501]

Andy, for some reason the male in my tank that have finally allowed their fry to live is attacking the female. I mean with malice! He's chased her away from the fry to the other side of the tank. The only thing to change is I just completed a water change. Is this normal or may I have a problem?


Sent from my iPhone using Aquarium Advice

 

[Andy Sager]

Andy, for some reason the male in my tank that have finally allowed their fry to live is attacking the female. I mean with malice! He's chased her away from the fry to the other side of the tank. The only thing to change is I just completed a water change. Is this normal or may I have a problem?


Sent from my iPhone using Aquarium Advice

This is another example of the issues with using today's Angels to parent raise. Breeders of the past didn't necessarily use the best fish to breed because they were going to artificially raise the fry anyway so "it didn't matter." Unfortunately, it does matter.
Yes, you have a problem. The best thing to do now is to put a divider in the tank so that the female can recover before she gets too hurt. Once you remove the fry from the tank, wait a couple days then, if the female is still in good shape, remove the divider and let them spawn again. Be ready to separate the female again if you parent raise the next spawn as this could very well be a continual thing.