Wigglers At Last!!!!!

[AngelLover]

i wait till mine are at least dime size before selling mine that way i can tell if there is any deformities like missing fins or weird body shape. 4 to 8 weeks i think

Thanks Bob not that I'm looking to make anything off them but just out of curiosity.... What does a store typically pay for a standard batch of angels?

 

[Andy Sager]

OMG I'm already wondering what to do with the 30 or so fry I have now! I have a 20 gallon I can move some too and I guess i can keep some with the parents in their 37 gallon. At what size would you say is acceptable to start giving them to stores/friends? Oh and how long would you estimate before these fry begin to look like fish and not squiggly specs with eyes? Haha

I built my reputation by supplying the stores with Angels with a body size no smaller than a U.S. nickel. With good food and hygeine, this took about 10-12 weeks from egg to sale. Your fry should start sprouting their fins about 18-21 days old (if I remember correctly ) but they definitely looked like minature versions of their parents by day 30. As for stores today, you need to ask them how small they will take them. I know I see a lot of dime size fish coming from the Far East and my wholesaler buddies all complain. I guess it all depends on the location you are at.
For what it's worth, I hatched out and kept my spawns in 10 gal tanks for approx 30 days before moving them into larger tanks and vats for growing them out. You should be able to put the 30 fry in the 20 but you will need to do routine water changes to get them to grow and you'll need to watch for the larger fry overwhelming the smaller ones when it comes to feeding. It's not the most ideal situation. A 30 gal long would be a better tank for starters so the fish can spread out.
Also, keeping the fry with the parent's is not a good option. When the pair are ready to spawn again, they will banish the fry from the spawning area ( and in some cases, that means they will kill off their fry )

Breeding Angels is fun but can be a lot of work. Especially when trying to cut corners. They are a prolific fish and therefore require a lot of tankspace to raise the fry. I'm sure Bob McCoy or Ray ( Karay) will agree with me about the tank space. Angels are like the rabbits of the water world. lol

 

[Andy Sager]

Thanks Bob not that I'm looking to make anything off them but just out of curiosity.... What does a store typically pay for a standard batch of angels?

Depends on what type, what size and where you are at. Not all places pay the same for the same fish. I'd suggest, if you are not looking to make any money doing this, offer your fish to the stores for trade for goods. If raising a few Angels gets you your food or filter materials or a new tank, that's money out of your pocket that you don't need to spend.
Also, most stores, at least here in FL, will give more in trade than they will in cash. Just something else to think about

Hope this helps

 

[Karay]

So my wife is getting to the point where she is noticing things in the tanks here at home. I've noted for the last couple of days the 2 angels (roughly 10 months old) have been bullies in the community tank. Anyway She just pointed out that the angels breeding tubes are out. You may be able to pick out the tubes. Advise Andy?

 

[Andy Sager]

So my wife is getting to the point where she is noticing things in the tanks here at home. I've noted for the last couple of days the 2 angels (roughly 10 months old) have been bullies in the community tank. Anyway She just pointed out that the angels breeding tubes are out. You may be able to pick out the tubes. Advise Andy?

The fish on the left appears to be the female due to her rounded belly and thicker tube (assuming it didn't just eat .) Unfortunately, the fish on the right is not a clear enough picture to be sure. It almost looks like another female from the silouette and anal fin angle but I won't put money on my guess for this one Sorry. See if you can get a clearer, more close up pic of the tube of that second fish. Maybe then I can better advise.

Oh and BTW, with her new found interest in the fish, this is your way of getting more tanks. " Oh no! Honey, I need another tank in the living room for this new pair of Angelfish you found!!!!" ROFL

 

[Karay]

Yeah the pics aren't the best. Haven't been able to convince for a phone upgrade yet. Lol I can say that I can tell the difference between the males pencil end and the females eraser end and I definitely have male and female. What I'm wondering if I should separate them until they are older? Or should they be a pair at all? Goes back to wanting quality fish. Will they produce quality offspring?

 

[AngelLover]

Andy thanks for your help!... I have another 55 gallon angel tank I might be able to put some in but I'm not sure how they will be treated by my other angels... My largest one is kind of a jerk. Maybe I could add some into my discus tank temporarily although they might be aggressive to the babies too. And that water is hot! OK I guess I need to get another tank if I'm going to keep up with this. LOL... what have I gotten myself into?!

So will keeping the fry in with the parents postpone the next spawn at all? I was hoping it would buy me some time!

Bob thank you... I didn't think about doing a trade in, that's a great idea! I really just want them going to good homes but if I can get some supplies out of it that's awesome.

Oh and they seem to be doing good with the frozen brine shrimp so far! I haven't gotten the portions down completely but they are definitely eating it so I'm excited

 

[pcdebb]

i wait till mine are at least dime size before selling mine that way i can tell if there is any deformities like missing fins or weird body shape. 4 to 8 weeks i think

My store didn't have any discus today so I bought some angels. They had a tank of some very small ones that are not even dime size by my comparison. They were that small. Of course I bought them!

 

[Andy Sager]

Yeah the pics aren't the best. Haven't been able to convince for a phone upgrade yet. Lol I can say that I can tell the difference between the males pencil end and the females eraser end and I definitely have male and female. What I'm wondering if I should separate them until they are older? Or should they be a pair at all? Goes back to wanting quality fish. Will they produce quality offspring?

Okay, here's the deal. I'm very good at spending other people's money (lol) so with that out there I will tell you what I would do if they were my fish. You do what you have to. Ok
At 10 months old, I would separate the fish. Their color is nice but they are not what I am looking for when it comes to grade A fins. Having said that, I would, at a later date, let them spawn to see what they produce. IF they produce any good Grade A fish, I'd work the line. (refer back to the KOI article I sent you.) If they produced nothing I am looking for, I would replace the fish with others or keep one in the community tank because it looks nice. I would not keep the 2 in the tank as they will probably terrorize the other fish and since you don't want them to breed, it makes no sense to keep them together.

That's how I would handle this. ( If I were still married, I'd still work the "another tank" angle with the Mrs. however. ) lol

 

[Andy Sager]

Andy thanks for your help!... I have another 55 gallon angel tank I might be able to put some in but I'm not sure how they will be treated by my other angels... My largest one is kind of a jerk. Maybe I could add some into my discus tank temporarily although they might be aggressive to the babies too. And that water is hot! OK I guess I need to get another tank if I'm going to keep up with this. LOL... what have I gotten myself into?!

So will keeping the fry in with the parents postpone the next spawn at all? I was hoping it would buy me some time!

Bob thank you... I didn't think about doing a trade in, that's a great idea! I really just want them going to good homes but if I can get some supplies out of it that's awesome.

Oh and they seem to be doing good with the frozen brine shrimp so far! I haven't gotten the portions down completely but they are definitely eating it so I'm excited

The good news/ bad news is that the fry will not be safe with other fish for quite a while so they really should be in a tank by themselves until they grow up some more and can defend themselves.

Yes, keeping the fry with the parents will delay the next spawn BUT, there is no telling for how long. The longer you keep them in the tank, the higher the chances you wake up to no babies.

Finally, yes, this is what you have gotten yourself into. lol There is a big difference to keeping a nice tank of fish and breeding fish. They are 2 totally different animals.

 

[Andy Sager]

My store didn't have any discus today so I bought some angels. They had a tank of some very small ones that are not even dime size by my comparison. They were that small. Of course I bought them!

If I may step up on my soapbox for a minute.....

Deb, In my opinion, buying these fish does not encourage the store owner to buy larger/ better quality fish to sell. It only exaserbates the problem I brought out a few pages ago: The lack of quality Angelfish on the market. Fish that are smaller than a dime are so fragile and susceptible to everything that the shop should never have offered them for sale. If you, and everybody else, let them stay in the store, the store would have had to grow them up some and the cost of doing that would be a turnoff so they would demand a larger fish from their suppliers.

Back in the 1970s, I replied to a letter in Tropical Fish Hobbyist magazine from someone complaining about the size of the fish available for sale at the time. I replied " If the hobbyist wants better fish to buy, they have to demand better by not buying the inferior fish that are being offered at the stores." That still applies today. I replied to that first as a hobbyist who had worked in retail pet stores trying to and getting my bosses great reputations by having better fish than the other shops and second, as a breeder wholesaler who was doing something about it and not selling my fish until they were larger than what was being offerd by the other wholesalers.
I have been a tropical fish hobbyist for almost 48 years now and I know that the only way our voices will be heard is through the pocketbook. That's just the way it is. Please think about that the next time you feel sorry for a fish in a store or are tempted to "save" a fish from the store. It encourages poor practices.

I will step off my soapbox now but be prepared, I'm not putting it away forever.

I apologize to anyone if I offended you but if you are offended, you know that I am right about this.

 

[pcdebb]

i bought them sort of to "rescue" them, simply because I didn't think fish that small should have been for sale to begin with. He was selling them for like 3.99 or something, but after talking about it a bit, he sold them to me for a buck each. This is probably the one store in the area I trust over everyone else and they've always given me a good stock (of Discus anyway), they happened to get tiny ones this week. Plus, when I get fish out the store I like to get them as young as possible. Dont have a real reason for that, just always bought them that way.

 

[AngelLover]

I have seen petsmart sell angels that were the size of my pinky nail... You could hardly see them! This definitely seemed excessive but not shocking for petsmart. I agree about stores not taking quality fish... And I wonder how many of those micro sized fish will end up in micro sized tanks by new hobbyists that don't know any better. :-/

On the other hand I'm sure there are hobbyists out there on a budget that appreciate the lower prices and being able to watch them grow without having to breed them themselves.

I'm going to try to grow mine out for as long as I can house them, moving them when they are so small seems too stressful for the fish... And myself lol

 

[Andy Sager]

I just want to say this: I have been a hobbyist, a commercial breeder, worked in both the retail and wholesale pet trade, been a fish collector and have traveled and seen some of the common aquarium fish in their natural habitats. Nothing I say doesn't come from first hand knowledge. Take it for what it's worth.

 

[pcdebb]

I hadnt been in this shop for a few weeks so I dont know how long they were raising them.

In other angelfish news.......Blackie and Pumba are spawning their 3rd batch as we speak!! I was going to move them over to the 20 gallon after I finished my house cleaning. I was in here an hour ago and all was well, now there's a whole bunch of eggs on the filter intake. She seems to be laying more each time

 

[Karay]

Okay, here's the deal. I'm very good at spending other people's money (lol) so with that out there I will tell you what I would do if they were my fish. You do what you have to. Ok
At 10 months old, I would separate the fish. Their color is nice but they are not what I am looking for when it comes to grade A fins. Having said that, I would, at a later date, let them spawn to see what they produce. IF they produce any good Grade A fish, I'd work the line. (refer back to the KOI article I sent you.) If they produced nothing I am looking for, I would replace the fish with others or keep one in the community tank because it looks nice. I would not keep the 2 in the tank as they will probably terrorize the other fish and since you don't want them to breed, it makes no sense to keep them together.

That's how I would handle this. ( If I were still married, I'd still work the "another tank" angle with the Mrs. however. ) lol

I really wish you were closer so I could learn from you exactly what grade A fins are. I think I will separate them for a bit as I don't want them to spawn again until they're older. Is there an age you recommend or is it best to go by size? Also you mentioned you keep the fry in the 10 gal for 30 days. If they spawned every 7 days as you mentioned some do would that pair then require 4-5 10 gal tanks. Basically I'm tryin to wrap my head around tank stages. Here's what I'm doing. The slate goes into a 1gal jar with blue which sits inside the 10gal and that keeps the water inside the jar at the right temp. After 3 days of freeswim I gently tip the jar and kinda pour the fry into the 10 gal. They are in there for about 2 weeks before I need the 10gal for the alternate spawn. I move them into a 30gal from there. They are in there for a couple off weeks before moving into the grow out tanks. I'm thinking your system doesn't have that step which would save the space for a few more grow out tanks. Am I right? Thanks

 

[Andy Sager]

I really wish you were closer so I could learn from you exactly what grade A fins are. I think I will separate them for a bit as I don't want them to spawn again until they're older. Is there an age you recommend or is it best to go by size? Also you mentioned you keep the fry in the 10 gal for 30 days. If they spawned every 7 days as you mentioned some do would that pair then require 4-5 10 gal tanks. Basically I'm tryin to wrap my head around tank stages. Here's what I'm doing. The slate goes into a 1gal jar with blue which sits inside the 10gal and that keeps the water inside the jar at the right temp. After 3 days of freeswim I gently tip the jar and kinda pour the fry into the 10 gal. They are in there for about 2 weeks before I need the 10gal for the alternate spawn. I move them into a 30gal from there. They are in there for a couple off weeks before moving into the grow out tanks. I'm thinking your system doesn't have that step which would save the space for a few more grow out tanks. Am I right? Thanks

There may have been a typo, they are in the tank for approx 20 days.
I think I went over this before but I'm too tired to check back through the thread so I'll just repeat it.
Assuming the fish spawn every 10 days: Tank # 2 has the babies from spawn #1 ( I hatch them out in the tank and not the jar). 10 days later, spawn #2 goes into tank #3. 10 days later, fry in tank#2 get moved to growout tank and spawn #3 goes into tank #2. The round robin continues from there. If your fish are spawning less frequently than 10 days, it becomes a judgement call as to when to move them based on the size of the spawn in numbers and the the size of the fry at the time. However, the faster you can get them into larger quarters safely, the faster they will grow. In my case, Tanks 1,2 & 3 were all 10 gals with the growouts being a minimum of 55 gals or larger. So this was 4 tanks for each pair.

As for your new pair that your wife will allow you a new tank for rofl, usually age and size go together (at least that's how it used to be.) I liked to let my fish get to about 12-15 months old before I let them start breeding. They weren't monsters in size but they weren't little things either. That first spawn will most likely be a dud anyway so it's not the end of the world if they spawn then you separate them.

As for "grade A" fins, you should have been around in the 1960s when Angels were more like their wild counterparts. If you look at the fish on this link Pterophyllum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia You will see that most of them have longer, thinner pointier Dorsal and Anal fins. These are the same as the wild ones I used to get as a kid. To me, THAT's what an Angelfish should look like. There are too many fish with stubby fins (IMO) on the market I believe are from either poor lineage or improper housing when being grown. These fish should have taller tanks to grow out in so that their fins don't get damaged or burned off from exposure. Also, Veiltail fish had the same longer fins but the "Veil" effect on the Dorsal and Anal only made the fins wider but not rounder.

As for our locations, I too wish you were closer so that i could be around the fish but have you doing all the work.

PM me if you still don't understand and we'll need to set up a phone call

 

[Karay]

Thanks Andy. It clarifies things up quite a bit. It's smashing how one little typo can easily confuse me Tim for me to trade in some of my 30gal for a bigger tank. That space can be easy used for a 75 gal.

 

[Andy Sager]

Thanks Andy. It clarifies things up quite a bit. It's smashing how one little typo can easily confuse me Tim for me to trade in some of my 30gal for a bigger tank. That space can be easy used for a 75 gal.

Sorry about that. I do so much typing at night that I sometimes miss a number and don't proof read what I've written. (I should put a disclaimer on all my posts " Hey, I'm tired!!!! but I'm still trying to help )

I think I mentioned before that you needed more growout tanks than anything else. wink, wink, nudge, nudge

Glad I could clarify

 

[Karay]

Lol. I just sent you a pm about grow out tanks