Yellowing of anubias

[F.Sam]

Had this problem for a while now in my 30g in which i've been EI-dosing is well. Always starts off at the edges of the leaves, then "consumes" the leaf entirely. Nitrogen deficiency?



Sent per three-eyed raven..

 

[Delapool]

Following! Any luck?

 

[F.Sam]

Nope! New growth is just as green as it should be...


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[Brookster123]

Looks like necrosis.. could these just be the original emersed growth leaves?

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[Alexwm125]

If the leaves were the emersed growth, then their cells turgid pressure may be too high to properly uptake the ferts from the water via osmosis. Therefore photosynthetic activity decreases, the hormone auxin moves further down the leaf to the petiole and signals the plant to drop the leaf, cause necrosis. Or if it is not as extensive, chlorosis.

I would not suspect nitrogen deficiency as this is usually not an issue with slow growing anubias.


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[Brookster123]

If the leaves were the emersed growth, then their cells turgid pressure may be too high to properly uptake the ferts from the water via osmosis. Therefore photosynthetic activity decreases, the hormone auxin moves further down the leaf to the petiole and signals the plant to drop the leaf, cause necrosis. Or if it is not as extensive, chlorosis.

I would not suspect nitrogen deficiency as this is usually not an issue with slow growing anubias.


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3g Betta

This post just broke my brain..

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[Alexwm125]

Yeah just finished a Botany class. It was really deep but I made it lol


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[Alexwm125]

Well that post in short. It may be better to clip it as it seems as the plant has chosen not to keep it because it does not benefit the plant enough.
There are many other things involved though, the production and movement of phytochrome, and gibberellins (GAs) to name a few.

It is a rigid plant however so it may take a long while to drop.


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[F.Sam]

I've had this plant for 2 years! I've had this like sometimes. But now it's just like every week that a leaf yellows. My amazon swords have been shading them lately tho.. But it's a low light plant so?


Sent per three-eyed raven..

 

[Delapool]

Is it on the lower leaves? Also looked like there was leaf curl in second pic?

Last one was do you have any readings for nitrates, etc?

 

[Delapool]

If the leaves were the emersed growth, then their cells turgid pressure may be too high to properly uptake the ferts from the water via osmosis. Therefore photosynthetic activity decreases, the hormone auxin moves further down the leaf to the petiole and signals the plant to drop the leaf, cause necrosis. Or if it is not as extensive, chlorosis.

I would not suspect nitrogen deficiency as this is usually not an issue with slow growing anubias.


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3g Betta

Soo, localised necrosis is mainly due to the plants not maintaining cell pressure?

It's really early here! I think posts with scientific stuff should carry a warning...

Edit - but I'm keen, I'm keen.

 

[F.Sam]

The curled leaf is an old echinodorus leaf I snipped of at that time!
Maybe I should get a testkit.. I'm just cheap..


Sent per three-eyed raven..

 

[F.Sam]

And yes on the lower leaves that are older!


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[Delapool]

It reminds me of not enough potassium. Or at least what I've seen with leaf curl and leaf spot issues on lower leaves. I wouldn't rate myself an expert or any where near though.

 

[Alexwm125]

That actually a good answer based on the fact that it has already been submerged a long time. Much longer than the leaf would last if it weren't capable. I would also say potassium or magnesium deficiency.
The K deficiency I believe is causing the necrosis and leaf curling.
Mg deficiency is often confused with K deficiency as the symptoms are similar.


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[Alexwm125]

Soo, localised necrosis is mainly due to the plants not maintaining cell pressure?

It's really early here! I think posts with scientific stuff should carry a warning...

Edit - but I'm keen, I'm keen.

If it were necrosis shortly after submersion then absolutely. Well, more that they have too much, for remaining rigid and hydrated out of water. Underwater this pressure may be too high to properly carry out osmosis. The cells change their percentages of water and desolved nutrients to diffuse more or less to different areas of the plant.

I'm sure diffusion is well known am I correct?


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[aqua_chem]

This assumes that plants are a static organism, when in fact they are extremely dynamic. I've actually got quite a bit of experience going between emersed and submerged environments with plants, as most of my tanks were started DSM. You only get significant leaf shedding in some circumstances and with certain plants, and in my experience it's more related to CO2 rather than the plants handling of osmotic pressures. Take for example Hemianthus callitrichoides. Many people will grow it emersed, flood the tank a few months later, and there is a massive dieback. However, if you crank your CO2 and taper it back over the course of weeks, you can retain much of your emersed growth. Plants are dynamic and adapt very well between the two environments without having to undergo dramatic death events, but what they cannot overcome is rapid changes between high-resource and low resource, ie, atmospheric CO2 levels vs non-injected or inadequately injected CO2 levels.



Now, tank at hand. This is actually a pretty good case. Here's what I want everyone to do. Put your finger over the obvious deformities and look at the tank. What do you see? What other clues are there?


Here's what I'm seeing: there is a lot of algae. I may be mistaken, but the mottling of the leaf is actually normal leaf and thick GSA, right? Even if not, in the upper right hand side of the first picture, there is a great example of GSA setting in. When do we see GSA in large amounts? Two scenarios: high light/low CO2, which is potential given the deficiency and the BBA in the other pictures, or more classically, low phosphate. In fact, without having seen anything else in the tank and just looking at the pattern of the deficiency, that was my guess, as potassium usually doesn't cause such dramatic yellowing and large holes, and nitrogen almost always starts at the tip and tracks back, or affects the whole leaf simultaneously.


The oddest part about this is that you said you were dosing EI, but you should never have any deficiency in EI, much less one raging hard enough to affect leaf architecture. This leads me to think it's one of two things:

1) That your EI dosing isn't up to snuff, or that there's something hinky with your dosing setup, or...

2) It's a CO2 issue, or perhaps both, as CO2 problems can basically look like anything.

 

[Delapool]

If it were necrosis shortly after submersion then absolutely. Well, more that they have too much, for remaining rigid and hydrated out of water. Underwater this pressure may be too high to properly carry out osmosis. The cells change their percentages of water and desolved nutrients to diffuse more or less to different areas of the plant.

I'm sure diffusion is well known am I correct?


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3g Betta

Maybe, not sure - always happy to be educated.

 

[Delapool]

This assumes that plants are a static organism, when in fact they are extremely dynamic. I've actually got quite a bit of experience going between emersed and submerged environments with plants, as most of my tanks were started DSM. You only get significant leaf shedding in some circumstances and with certain plants, and in my experience it's more related to CO2 rather than the plants handling of osmotic pressures. Take for example Hemianthus callitrichoides. Many people will grow it emersed, flood the tank a few months later, and there is a massive dieback. However, if you crank your CO2 and taper it back over the course of weeks, you can retain much of your emersed growth. Plants are dynamic and adapt very well between the two environments without having to undergo dramatic death events, but what they cannot overcome is rapid changes between high-resource and low resource, ie, atmospheric CO2 levels vs non-injected or inadequately injected CO2 levels.



Now, tank at hand. This is actually a pretty good case. Here's what I want everyone to do. Put your finger over the obvious deformities and look at the tank. What do you see? What other clues are there?


Here's what I'm seeing: there is a lot of algae. I may be mistaken, but the mottling of the leaf is actually normal leaf and thick GSA, right? Even if not, in the upper right hand side of the first picture, there is a great example of GSA setting in. When do we see GSA in large amounts? Two scenarios: high light/low CO2, which is potential given the deficiency and the BBA in the other pictures, or more classically, low phosphate. In fact, without having seen anything else in the tank and just looking at the pattern of the deficiency, that was my guess, as potassium usually doesn't cause such dramatic yellowing and large holes, and nitrogen almost always starts at the tip and tracks back, or affects the whole leaf simultaneously.


The oddest part about this is that you said you were dosing EI, but you should never have any deficiency in EI, much less one raging hard enough to affect leaf architecture. This leads me to think it's one of two things:

1) That your EI dosing isn't up to snuff, or that there's something hinky with your dosing setup, or...

2) It's a CO2 issue, or perhaps both, as CO2 problems can basically look like anything.

Is that BBA in the upper left side of the second pic? Also if I'm reading right - low phosphate could be the issue, how low is low? Also would increasing phosphate then discourage the BBA as well?

 

[Alexwm125]

That totally makes sense too. You sound very experienced though through experiences. Many smart people on this forum. Love it.

I am in No way an expert and have only taken a few bio classes toward my degree so far. So many of my answers are guesses based on the knowledge I have gathered so far from those classes in particular my recent botany class. Not much on co2 there as many of the plants we studied were terrestrial/partially aquatic... and seen only through labs with plants at school not many experiences with my own plants...

Like discussing various things that affect plants though. And I SUPER agree with the fact that plants are extremely dynamic and many factors play in.


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