Bettas in bowls, is it cruel????

[Hobgob]

Rice paddies are HUGE. Look up pics of rice paddies. Big and deep for such small fish.

Why would you take something that naturally has that much space to itself and put kit into a gallon bowl?

 

[Hobgob]

The fact that they do not require much swimming space along with the ability to extract air via the labrynth organ IS why they can be left in a bowl. In fact, the other labrynth fish you speak of such as Gouramis can be kept in a bowl as well if the bowl gave them enough space. These fish are all bred in a multitude of containers that don't have running water or filtration systems at all.
And for some of the larger fish that use a labrynth organ or some variation of one (ie Arapeimas, Arawanas, Tarpon, etc.) if you can find a bowl big enough for them, they would be able to be kept in one.
As for the heater, please see my previous response

Haha tarpon in a bowl? You mean like the really huge tarpon? Lol really you can out any fish in a bowl. The question is how long did it live for? Also you said you don't need a heater but you still heated the bowls... You can have all of your tanks running without a heater. You just need to keep your room temperature up.
Also did Siam go threw a rainy season? The betta fish probably got caught in the rice paddies in the dry season as all the water resides and lots of fish get trapped in puddles, creaks and ponds. Then when the rain starts up they have the abbility to swim. People most likely harvested the betta in The dry seasons because it was much easier to find. Which would make people says they are live in a puddle.
Now for the part of saying fish are bred in still water? I have never seen a breeder not using filters and I have never seen them using bowl and jars to breed the fish. Normally there is a sponge filter in a bare bottom tanks. Certain fish will only breed if in certain speed of water.

Anyways here's my opinion! Any fish can be kept in a bowl. I kept a neon for a year and a half in my own enclosed Eco system. No heat, I couldn't feed it, no water changes. But had live plants. No it lived for a year and a half.'sti shouldn't be done. How long did your estate betta last? Also when they are in bowls you can tell they don't like it. They just sit in one spot by if they are in a good home they willl float and plant pick. Their normal behavior...

 

[Talvari]

I, too, am in the mindset of "just because it can be done, doesnt mean it should."

I work at a LFS and we change out the water in our betta cups at least twice a week, three times a week if they are looking shoddy. I'll test the water occasionally to make sure the ammonia isnt too high... And even in the clean water, they dont move much. Ive never seen a bubble nest. They look miserable and their colors are never very bright.

I personally have never kept a betta in anything smaller than a gallon. My longest lived betta was a royal purple male named Gilbert... He was in a heated 2.5 gallon tank. I had him for almost six years.

My current crowntail is in a heated and filtered 5 gallon tank.

Both of them swam constantly, blew bubble nests, picked at plants, wove in an out of plants, and flared up at their own reflections or objects that got too close to their tanks. Their colors, within a few days of coming home, were twice as bright. Their fins filled out... Overall, they were just alot more active, and so much more healthy looking.

If by doing such a simply thing as keeping a betta in a larger volume container improves their health, quality of life, and their longevity... It seems like a simple decision to make.

 

[corinne118s]

I think a big issue here is that people assume just becausethey are advertised as being bowl compatible that they are easy to keep. Keeping them healthy and happy in a bowl is twice as hard as in a tank. I know people who basically forget about their Betta because it's just in a bowl and is hardy.

 

[GodFan]

I think you are on a good point but missed by an inch or so
The rice paddies that you are talking about are a more modern version of the original wild paddies. These fish originally came from "ponds, drains, ditches and other sluggish waters" (as quoted from the Handbook of tropical aquarium fishes) throught Siam and not just paddies. The original wild rice paddies would have fallen into the sluggish waters catagory. In nature, they did not travel far from the protection of the plant life for fear of detection by wading birds and other fish eating critters. So no, they do not REQUIRE swimming space.
As for heaters, I used to have a warehouse with over 1000 bettas at any time in various stages of growth or for sale. There was not one heater in any of them. What I did do was make sure that the air temp. never went lower than 70 degrees thereby the water temps never went below 70 degrees. You were close on this point but there is more than 1 way to heat the water. For the Bettas that are in my house, I use my central air/ heat to keep them warm or cool. No tank heater necessary.
In most pet stores, the air temps never get cold enough to hurt the fish thereby not needing to heat them there either.

I realize that a Betta goes against most of what we know about taking care of fish. This is why you must learn about your fish before you buy one. It just might fool you

Hope this clears things up

Let me first say thank you for being polite and respectful in your reply. Alot of people dont bother Now I agree with alot of what you are saying. Let me rephrase my original statement: Bettas need to be kept in warm water. How you keep it warm makes no difference (room temp like you did or a heater it is all the same)
I have not seen the original rice paddies so I cant testify there other than to say I am sure they held more than a gallon of water. However this is what I will say: A betta does not need as much space as most fish that are the same size. However I do think they need space to move. The reason I say this is because I had bettas in bowls and such and in tanks and I have seen the difference in the fish. My current betta is in a 5.5 gallon with very limited water flow (its low enough that duck weed doesnt get beat to death). I think that that is ideal for bettas.
So really the only thing that you have said that I dont agree with is the size of the container and that is conditional. If I were selling them then I would keep them in bowls IF I could keep them clean like you mentioned. But long term I do think some swimming space is necessary.

 

[Andy Sager]

WOW.....

I knew I was going to spark some debate but......
I would like to answer you all individually but I also have to work so there just isn't the time so I will try to respond to everyone in this reply.

As I mentioned in my original post, seeing a Betta being kept in a bowl in a pet store should not be considered a cruel act. Keeping a Betta in a container (of any size) of dirty water or with fast moving water is what's cruel. Today's Bettas are not like their foremothers and forefathers as they now have these unwielding fins that make it more difficult to swim with.
If any of you are old enough to remember the first delta tailed guppies, you'll recall that the bigger the tail got, the slower the fish swam. That's because the tail weighed the fish down. Many guppies were coming down with spinal problems because of the mutation. If you look at today's Guppies, the tails are not as big and the fish seem to swim easier. If you were to race a regular angelfish against a veiltail angelfish, the regular would win every time. That's because they have the original equipment that they evolved with which enables them to swim faster. Bettas are no different. They are the veitail angelfish of their specie. Beautiful to look at but not functionally sound.

Proper fish keeping requires us to understand the habits and habitats of the fish we keep and do our best to duplicate them in a controlled environment. In the case of a Betta, it's habitat when it was in it's original shape was a shallow often stagnent body of water. The size of the body of water was not really of significance because the fish did not use the entire body of water. It was not a migrating specie. It did not move from a winter home to a summer home. It did not go from shallow water in the heat of the days to deep water when the temp dropped (which it mostly didn't do.) In this scenario, the fishes ability to survive was because of the labrynth organ. It's that same organ that enables today's Bettas to be kept in Bowls with no filteration or water movement. That's the reason it can be done which cannot be distupted.
If you are not seeing good colors in your bowl kept Betta, you are not caring for them correctly. I have beautiful Bettas in bowls that blow nests all the time. The sure sign of a healthy fish is good color and wanting to breed. I acheive this in bowls all the time. If you are not, you are doing something wrong. That is not me talking, that's your fish talking to you. You need to change what you are doing. (Talvari, if your Bettas are not looking good at your store after a water change, you may need to check your water. You may be having excess chemicals in it that your systems with carbon are taking out so it's not effecting your other fish. You may also want to use bottled water and temp change on some to experiment if this solves the problem. The problem may also be with your supplier. They may just be giving you crappy fish.)

If you maintain this fish correctly, it can thrive in a bowl situation. Unlike the poster's argument about keeping an adult Oscar in a 10 gal tank, that fish will never thrive in that small amount of space. A betta can. The correct way of using a bowl takes a lot of work. If you are up to the challenge, there's no reason not to go for it. NOW, I'm not saying that you can keep Bettas in bowls and neglect them. That's cruel. It's just as cruel to put them in a tank and neglect them. As for longevity, today's Bettas don't seem to live as long as the ones I used to keep in the 1960s and 1970s. It most likely is due to all the inbreeding that has been down over the years so there is not much one can do about that. I once watched a documentary on PBS about health and in it, they talked about a Betta which was kept for 9 years in a laboratory. The experiment was to determine the body fat content between the fish in a bowl being fed beefheart and a fish in a tank being fed beefheart. I don't recall what the outcome was of the trial but I do remember in that piece that the fish that lived 9 years was on a regular routine of swimming around a 20 gal long tank. The reason it was swimming was because the scientist was chasing it!! EVERY DAY!!! When left alone in the tank, the fish primarily stayed in one area. Once again, just because the fish has the room to swim does not mean that it wants to swim.

Temp: A Betta CAN live in temps as cold as in the upper 50s and as high as the mid 90s. The best temps to keep them in is between 70 and 80 degrees. How you get the water to that temp, I'll leave up to you. I told you how I do it in my house. I use heaters in my Betta systems outside. The number is what's important, not the method you get that number

Breeding: For breeding Bettas, most books and breeders will tell you that Bettas breed best at about 80 degrees. They like the warmer water for breeding. That may also be why they look better in warmer water, they need to look their best to attract a female. I've had bettas breed in 90 degree water and 75 degree water. These spawns did not do as well as the ones bred around 80 degrees.
As for the setup for anabantids, the first time I came to FL and went to a fish farm, I saw stacks of styrofoam boxes with plastic full box bags in them and being the curious type that I was, I looked inside the boxes. Each box had a pair of gouramis in them. Each box had a floating plant and a bubble nest in it. No water movement, no airstones , no heaters. (Hey, it's Florida, who needs heaters? LOL) This was exactly how I was breeding gouramis in NJ except I was using a tank and not a box and I needed a heater because hey, it's NJ and it gets cold up there! LOL. The setup Hobgob is discribing is for the second stage of the growout for anabantids. In the case of bettas, Betta fry are sensitive to water movement so I doubt this was the setup at the spawning. If it was and the fry survived, good for you. It's the exception and not the rule. For my other fish, this setup is about accurate with small tweaks depending the specie I was breeding.
Finally, yes, those huge Tarpon are found in all types of water here in FL. There are some that have become landlocked in canals so they are freshwater Tarpon now. They can go into low oxygen level waters because they too have a labrynth type organ. The huge fish in South America have the same situation. When the Amazon river floods, these fish can get all the way up into the "back country" because there is water there. When the water receeds, some fish can get caught in some deeper "Puddles" where they have to survive until the next rainy season. If there is no water movement, how do they do that? Here's a hint, a labrynth type organ. The point I was making was that these huge fish would have the ability to live in a bowl if you had the right sized bowl. An Oscar, just for example, would never be able to live in a bowl without supplimental airation. The example of the neon tetra in the bowl was really a bit off course. It was being kept in a ecosystem and not just a bowl. It was being given supplimental airation via the plants and food from whatever the system was providing. That's much different than a fish, a bowl of water, and nothing else. There's nothing stopping you from putting a live plant in your bowl if you have the light to keep the plant alive. That's about as natural as it comes. It's also about as close to a Betta's natural habitat as there is. So you mean that anybody who is not keeping a Betta in a tank with live plants is being cruel to the fish? I would have to argue that point with my fish.

So I think I covered everything. You can agree or disagree with me all you want. I have many years of experiences and training that gives me the ability to debate these issues. I even have some books that were so wrong when they were printed that I just laugh at these today. The best one is from a book on angelfish. There's a picture of a marble veiltail angelfish with a caption saying" Not too pretty, it is doubtful that the Marble variety will ever achieve popularity." You see? Books are good but experience is better. I loved my Marble Angelfish

 

[GodFan]

I knew I was going to spark some debate but......
I would like to answer you all individually but I also have to work so there just isn't the time so I will try to respond to everyone in this reply.

As I mentioned in my original post, seeing a Betta being kept in a bowl in a pet store should not be considered a cruel act. Keeping a Betta in a container (of any size) of dirty water or with fast moving water is what's cruel. Today's Bettas are not like their foremothers and forefathers as they now have these unwielding fins that make it more difficult to swim with.
If any of you are old enough to remember the first delta tailed guppies, you'll recall that the bigger the tail got, the slower the fish swam. That's because the tail weighed the fish down. Many guppies were coming down with spinal problems because of the mutation. If you look at today's Guppies, the tails are not as big and the fish seem to swim easier. If you were to race a regular angelfish against a veiltail angelfish, the regular would win every time. That's because they have the original equipment that they evolved with which enables them to swim faster. Bettas are no different. They are the veitail angelfish of their specie. Beautiful to look at but not functionally sound.

Proper fish keeping requires us to understand the habits and habitats of the fish we keep and do our best to duplicate them in a controlled environment. In the case of a Betta, it's habitat when it was in it's original shape was a shallow often stagnent body of water. The size of the body of water was not really of significance because the fish did not use the entire body of water. It was not a migrating specie. It did not move from a winter home to a summer home. It did not go from shallow water in the heat of the days to deep water when the temp dropped (which it mostly didn't do.) In this scenario, the fishes ability to survive was because of the labrynth organ. It's that same organ that enables today's Bettas to be kept in Bowls with no filteration or water movement. That's the reason it can be done which cannot be distupted.
If you are not seeing good colors in your bowl kept Betta, you are not caring for them correctly. I have beautiful Bettas in bowls that blow nests all the time. The sure sign of a healthy fish is good color and wanting to breed. I acheive this in bowls all the time. If you are not, you are doing something wrong. That is not me talking, that's your fish talking to you. You need to change what you are doing. (Talvari, if your Bettas are not looking good at your store after a water change, you may need to check your water. You may be having excess chemicals in it that your systems with carbon are taking out so it's not effecting your other fish. You may also want to use bottled water and temp change on some to experiment if this solves the problem. The problem may also be with your supplier. They may just be giving you crappy fish.)

If you maintain this fish correctly, it can thrive in a bowl situation. Unlike the poster's argument about keeping an adult Oscar in a 10 gal tank, that fish will never thrive in that small amount of space. A betta can. The correct way of using a bowl takes a lot of work. If you are up to the challenge, there's no reason not to go for it. NOW, I'm not saying that you can keep Bettas in bowls and neglect them. That's cruel. It's just as cruel to put them in a tank and neglect them. As for longevity, today's Bettas don't seem to live as long as the ones I used to keep in the 1960s and 1970s. It most likely is due to all the inbreeding that has been down over the years so there is not much one can do about that. I once watched a documentary on PBS about health and in it, they talked about a Betta which was kept for 9 years in a laboratory. The experiment was to determine the body fat content between the fish in a bowl being fed beefheart and a fish in a tank being fed beefheart. I don't recall what the outcome was of the trial but I do remember in that piece that the fish that lived 9 years was on a regular routine of swimming around a 20 gal long tank. The reason it was swimming was because the scientist was chasing it!! EVERY DAY!!! When left alone in the tank, the fish primarily stayed in one area. Once again, just because the fish has the room to swim does not mean that it wants to swim.

Temp: A Betta CAN live in temps as cold as in the upper 50s and as high as the mid 90s. The best temps to keep them in is between 70 and 80 degrees. How you get the water to that temp, I'll leave up to you. I told you how I do it in my house. I use heaters in my Betta systems outside. The number is what's important, not the method you get that number

Breeding: For breeding Bettas, most books and breeders will tell you that Bettas breed best at about 80 degrees. They like the warmer water for breeding. That may also be why they look better in warmer water, they need to look their best to attract a female. I've had bettas breed in 90 degree water and 75 degree water. These spawns did not do as well as the ones bred around 80 degrees.
As for the setup for anabantids, the first time I came to FL and went to a fish farm, I saw stacks of styrofoam boxes with plastic full box bags in them and being the curious type that I was, I looked inside the boxes. Each box had a pair of gouramis in them. Each box had a floating plant and a bubble nest in it. No water movement, no airstones , no heaters. (Hey, it's Florida, who needs heaters? LOL) This was exactly how I was breeding gouramis in NJ except I was using a tank and not a box and I needed a heater because hey, it's NJ and it gets cold up there! LOL. The setup Hobgob is discribing is for the second stage of the growout for anabantids. In the case of bettas, Betta fry are sensitive to water movement so I doubt this was the setup at the spawning. If it was and the fry survived, good for you. It's the exception and not the rule. For my other fish, this setup is about accurate with small tweaks depending the specie I was breeding.
Finally, yes, those huge Tarpon are found in all types of water here in FL. There are some that have become landlocked in canals so they are freshwater Tarpon now. They can go into low oxygen level waters because they too have a labrynth type organ. The huge fish in South America have the same situation. When the Amazon river floods, these fish can get all the way up into the "back country" because there is water there. When the water receeds, some fish can get caught in some deeper "Puddles" where they have to survive until the next rainy season. If there is no water movement, how do they do that? Here's a hint, a labrynth type organ. The point I was making was that these huge fish would have the ability to live in a bowl if you had the right sized bowl. An Oscar, just for example, would never be able to live in a bowl without supplimental airation. The example of the neon tetra in the bowl was really a bit off course. It was being kept in a ecosystem and not just a bowl. It was being given supplimental airation via the plants and food from whatever the system was providing. That's much different than a fish, a bowl of water, and nothing else. There's nothing stopping you from putting a live plant in your bowl if you have the light to keep the plant alive. That's about as natural as it comes. It's also about as close to a Betta's natural habitat as there is. So you mean that anybody who is not keeping a Betta in a tank with live plants is being cruel to the fish? I would have to argue that point with my fish.

So I think I covered everything. You can agree or disagree with me all you want. I have many years of experiences and training that gives me the ability to debate these issues. I even have some books that were so wrong when they were printed that I just laugh at these today. The best one is from a book on angelfish. There's a picture of a marble veiltail angelfish with a caption saying" Not too pretty, it is doubtful that the Marble variety will ever achieve popularity." You see? Books are good but experience is better. I loved my Marble Angelfish

Wow. I will admit that I do feel alittle differently about bettas now. I still think that 2.5 gallons is the minimum amount of water to keep them in just because they will move sometimes and hey I know even if I didnt move I would want the option. Now I agree with alot of what you said. I do however think that no matter what you keep a betta in it should be given something to hide in.

 

[Andy Sager]

Absolutley...

Wow. I will admit that I do feel alittle differently about bettas now. I still think that 2.5 gallons is the minimum amount of water to keep them in just because they will move sometimes and hey I know even if I didnt move I would want the option. Now I agree with alot of what you said. I do however think that no matter what you keep a betta in it should be given something to hide in.

Nothing wrong with keeping a place to hide in a bowl.
As I mentioned, I don't rely on gallonage, I rely on water depth. It doesn't make sense to make the fish struggle to get to the surface.

 

[GodFan]

Nothing wrong with keeping a place to hide in a bowl.
As I mentioned, I don't rely on gallonage, I rely on water depth. It doesn't make sense to make the fish struggle to get to the surface.

I agree. I will just say I think they should have at least some room to swim. I think most bowls are too small. They should have at least 6 inches either way I think.

 

[a.tetreault]

most people dont take care of bettas properly when they are kept in a bowl that is why it is considered cruel, because most of the time it is. Thats not to say that everyone is like that, just most. If someone was willing to keep a betta in a bowl that was large enough to give some swimming space, keep the room temperature perfect at all times, and do daily water changes then it would be fine but in reality how many people do that? i consider it cruel to keep a betta in a small bowl with no filter and no heater because it is so rare that someone actually takes care of them properly. on the other hand, bettas also do not belong in large tanks, for the reasons that everyone stated. but a small five gallon filtered and heated tank in my opinion is perfect and the bare minimum that i would recommend for the above reasons.

 

[calfishguy]

Sorry but I just have to jump in you guys are obsessing about keeping bettas in "cruel" conditions but you and I included are taking fish from the wild modifying them
To be pretty and shoving them In a glass container it is all cruel. It's the same as having a dog alone when they are supposed to be in "packs".

 

[GodFan]

Sorry but I just have to jump in you guys are obsessing about keeping bettas in "cruel" conditions but you and I included are taking fish from the wild modifying them
To be pretty and shoving them In a glass container it is all cruel. It's the same as having a dog alone when they are supposed to be in "packs".

Just curious but if you feel that way then why keep fish?

 

[corinne118s]

Sorry but I just have to jump in you guys are obsessing about keeping bettas in "cruel" conditions but you and I included are taking fish from the wild modifying them
To be pretty and shoving them In a glass container it is all cruel. It's the same as having a dog alone when they are supposed to be in "packs".

I agree why have pets at all? Because humans are selfish! Obviously fish are happier in the wild same with all (non domesticated) animals.

Oh but I disagree with the dog thing. My dog is a member of my pack (family) and loves people more than other dogs

 

[GodFan]

Fish can be just as happy in aquariums as the wild. It all depends on the owner.

 

[Fishie]

Fish can be just as happy in aquariums as the wild. It all depends on the owner.

Haha I agree! Been just stalking this thread! just don't know what to believe :/

 

[Dbouchard]

I agree why have pets at all? Because humans are selfish! Obviously fish are happier in the wild same with all (non domesticated) animals.

Oh but I disagree with the dog thing. My dog is a member of my pack (family) and loves people more than other dogs

I agree, I beleive a better dog analogy to a betta debate would be....

you can keep a dog in apartment but if you dont give it enough space and clean up its waste or walk it, the animal wont be happy

if you keep a Betta in a small bowl and dont give it the room it wants, or clean its waste with water changes then it wont be happy.


either way as long as the animal is happy im sure there is always debate on how to get the critter to the point of happyness

Id never keep my dog in a tiny apartment with no room to run, but some people can do, and do it so the dog is content. I had a betta in a bowl years ago...it diddnt look happy to me....knowing now there is another way id probably go another route then a bowl

 

[corinne118s]

I agree, I beleive a better dog analogy to a betta debate would be....

you can keep a dog in apartment but if you dont give it enough space and clean up its waste or walk it, the animal wont be happy

if you keep a Betta in a small bowl and dont give it the room it wants, or clean its waste with water changes then it wont be happy.

either way as long as the animal is happy im sure there is always debate on how to get the critter to the point of happyness

Id never keep my dog in a tiny apartment with no room to run, but some people can do, and do it so the dog is content. I had a betta in a bowl years ago...it diddnt look happy to me....knowing now there is another way id probably go another route then a bowl

Agree 100%

 

[calfishguy]

Just curious but if you feel that way then why keep fish?

I keep fish because this may sound cruel but I don't care if they r not in there natural Habitat I was simply making a point cause u r making such a big deal over bettas in bowls when right now there are people dying of hunger in Africa.

 

[calfishguy]

For the dog thing I meant leaving it alone for days at a time coming back feeding it then leaving again

 

[a.tetreault]

you guys are getting ridiculous now. dogs have been a companion to humans for years, they are just as happy being a pet as they would be if they were in the wild, if not happier! anyone who knows anything about dogs will know this, there owners and family are there pack.

But anyway how did this change from fish to dogs? you cant compare the two they have completely different needs. i believe any animal can be just as happy as a pet as long as they are being properly cared for and there needs are being met. now as for bettas i think a bowl is hardly comparably to any habitat they would live in in the wild, unless you are doing daily water changes, providing a constant stable temperature and a bowl that is even large enough for them to turn around in it is completely cruel. like i said in my last post how many people do you know that do all that with there betta? hardly any.