Ph? Cycled? Sorry so many questions...

[Kelly5978]

I'm putting all my questions in one thread, because my phone makes it difficult to navigate the forum.
I will type my questions, and then the background info:
1. Can a high ph cause angelfish stress, or frayed tail fins?
2. What's the best way to lower ph without "fixes"?
3. How do you know if a tank (with 4 baby angelfish) Is cycled? (Read details below)
4. Is a teaspoon of aquarium salt good or bad for angelfish.
5. How often should I do a water change if my ammonia and nitrites always test 0, and my nitrates test the same as my tap water?
6. Should I worry about the cloudiness? There are tiny white particles throughout tank.

Okay, I used stability and prime for the first 7 days (with fish added the second day) in my 2" gallon tank. I bought the tank to relieve the overcrowding in my 10 gallon, that I bought and stocked without ever hearing the term "nitrogen cycle", so I had to cycle WITH FISH. I've had the tank 3-4 weeks. I've never gotten a reading, besides one time I got .25 ammonia. I was told NOT to do a bunch of water changes, because it would stall the cycling, and the prime kept my fish safe. I've changes 10% of the water 1 time (when I got the tiny ammonia reading. I'm worried that if I relax and stop testing, something will hurt the fish, and I won't know. How do I know if/when tank is cycled? Also, my smallest (beautiful, black-marble) angel's tail is frayed. I've never seen these fish nip each other (except one nudges the others away from his cave at bedtime). Could the ph be messing with his tail? Will aquarium salt hurt angelfish? Or help with their tail strength and fight off parasites?

Sorry this is so long. I really care about my fish! Thanks so much!

 

[Coyne]

I've never had Angel Fish, so I don't know if they have special PH requirements, but most fish can adjust to different PH levels as long as they're acclimated properly.

You'll know your tank is cycled when you have 0ppm ammonia and nitrite, but a steady increase in nitrates for about a week. Keep testing daily and do PWCs whenever ammonia and/or nitrite is .25ppm or higher. A 10% PWC turns a .25ppm into a .22ppm. While this is better than nothing, I would recommend larger PWCs. Just use basic math to figure out how much you need to remove to get the reading safely below .25ppm. You may get large spikes that will require multiple PWCs to bring the water back to safe conditions.

 

[Coyne]

Sorry... After reading your post again, I looks like you've done one 10% PWC in the past 3-4 weeks. Am I understanding that right?
If so, then poor water conditions would explain your fish's health issues. My tanks are fully cycled and I do at least 25% PWCs once a week.

I know you said you've barely registered any ammonia and zero nitrites, so that makes me wonder what you're using to test. I've never used those paper strips, but they have a reputation of being very inaccurate, especially if they're older or the test is done wrong. If you ARE using a liquid test kit, then double check that you're doing the tests correctly... For example: on the nitrate test you have to REALLY shake bottle #2 beforehand and REALLY shake the vial once both bottles have been added.

 

[Mebbid]

I'm putting all my questions in one thread, because my phone makes it difficult to navigate the forum.
I will type my questions, and then the background info:
1. Can a high ph cause angelfish stress, or frayed tail fins?
2. What's the best way to lower ph without "fixes"?
3. How do you know if a tank (with 4 baby angelfish) Is cycled? (Read details below)
4. Is a teaspoon of aquarium salt good or bad for angelfish.
5. How often should I do a water change if my ammonia and nitrites always test 0, and my nitrates test the same as my tap water?
6. Should I worry about the cloudiness? There are tiny white particles throughout tank.

Okay, I used stability and prime for the first 7 days (with fish added the second day) in my 2" gallon tank. I bought the tank to relieve the overcrowding in my 10 gallon, that I bought and stocked without ever hearing the term "nitrogen cycle", so I had to cycle WITH FISH. I've had the tank 3-4 weeks. I've never gotten a reading, besides one time I got .25 ammonia. I was told NOT to do a bunch of water changes, because it would stall the cycling, and the prime kept my fish safe. I've changes 10% of the water 1 time (when I got the tiny ammonia reading. I'm worried that if I relax and stop testing, something will hurt the fish, and I won't know. How do I know if/when tank is cycled? Also, my smallest (beautiful, black-marble) angel's tail is frayed. I've never seen these fish nip each other (except one nudges the others away from his cave at bedtime). Could the ph be messing with his tail? Will aquarium salt hurt angelfish? Or help with their tail strength and fight off parasites?

Sorry this is so long. I really care about my fish! Thanks so much!

1. Don't worry so much about a high pH. I currently have 4 very healthy angels and my tap water runs about 8.2 on the scale. Most likely these angels are just duking it out when you aren't paying attention, it is really common with angels as they are setting up territories.

2. Don't fiddle with your pH. Fish can easily adapt to different pH levels but large pH swings can be deadly.

3. 0 ammonia and 0 nitrites with rising nitrates generally means a tank is cycled.

4. Its debatable how useful aquarium salt is for fish. It wont harm angels but I don't bother using it in any of my tanks. If you are worried about infections setting in you could try melafix, people debate about it's usefulness but it is supposed to be an additive that will help prevent bacterial infections from taking hold. Personally I use it when I notice fish have injuries.

5. I suggest at least a 25% weekly water change whether your tank needs it or not.

6. The cloudiness is almost certainly a bacteria bloom. They are completely harmless to the fish except in very specific circumstances. If you really hate the look of it a UV sterilizer will fix the problem, but those are expensive.

Furthermore the advice telling you to not do the water change because it will stall the cycle is bs. The ammonia is continually being produced and will get used up by the bacteria in the meantime.


I have some questions for you about your set up.

What size of a tank?
How many fish?
What is your nitrate level from the tap?

 

[Kelly5978]

20 gallons. The 2 neon danios and 4 baby angels (upgrading in a month to keep them comfortable as they grow. The nitrates from tap are barely readable....but ph is high. My smallest FAVORITE BLACK marble angel (about quarter sized, with 1 white and 1 black tentacle....yes....I love this fish had a nip in his tail when I got him. It healed. Now his tail looks frayed, and he wouldn't eat tonight (they're always ready for food). I'm so worried. I am 90 % sure it's not tail rot. I have never seen any nipping, but j understand it happens. I heard ph can frey an angels fins....Is there anything I can do to ensure its not some bacteria, Etc? And, he has his own cave that only he goes in. Is there anything I should/could do? Changing water with prime and 50/50 tAp/bottled drinking water as suggested now. Geez, I'm so worried about my little guy! Ammonia-0, nitrites 0, nitrates, same as tap water. Should I keep using prime as my conditioner?
I also have a 10 gallon almost cycled, with 3 small gouramies and 2 black skirt tetras. I'm having trouble getting the nitrites down, but I'm changing water....and frankly more worried about suede (baby angel in 20 gallon). I will update in morning. Any questions or suggestions are very welcome!

 

[Mebbid]

20 gallons. The 2 neon danios and 4 baby angels (upgrading in a month to keep them comfortable as they grow. The nitrates from tap are barely readable....but ph is high. My smallest FAVORITE BLACK marble angel (about quarter sized, with 1 white and 1 black tentacle....yes....I love this fish had a nip in his tail when I got him. It healed. Now his tail looks frayed, and he wouldn't eat tonight (they're always ready for food). I'm so worried. I am 90 % sure it's not tail rot. I have never seen any nipping, but j understand it happens. I heard ph can frey an angels fins....Is there anything I can do to ensure its not some bacteria, Etc? And, he has his own cave that only he goes in. Is there anything I should/could do? Changing water with prime and 50/50 tAp/bottled drinking water as suggested now. Geez, I'm so worried about my little guy! Ammonia-0, nitrites 0, nitrates, same as tap water. Should I keep using prime as my conditioner?
I also have a 10 gallon almost cycled, with 3 small gouramies and 2 black skirt tetras. I'm having trouble getting the nitrites down, but I'm changing water....and frankly more worried about suede (baby angel in 20 gallon). I will update in morning. Any questions or suggestions are very welcome!

If its fin rot you will notice a discoloration around the frayed edge of the tail. It will usually turn red from what i've seen. I've never heard of any damage to an angels tail caused by high pH, I've seen TONS of angels go through my lfs (which is privately owned) and has the same water that I have with a pH of 8.2 and never noticed a single problem with them. Be careful when mixing your tap water with bottled; bottled water probably wont have the pH buffering capabilities that your tap water will have causing slightly larger swings in pH throughout the day / night cycle. Prime is an excellent water conditioner, it's the same thing I use due to the expense of API Stress coat.

If you are having trouble with high nitrates try doing larger water changes. a 20% pwc will only remove a little of the nitrates. Instead try doing a 40% - 50% change instead.

 

[Pearly]

Hi Kelly, I will only tell you what I know for sure from my own experience. My ph has always been high bcs of tap water in my area is very hard. First I got big piece of driftwood and cut it up to stick a nice piece in each of my tanks (there is some to do about driftwood too if you want to try either look it up or I can tell you how to do it). Some people use peat moss but I just did driftwood. It'll bring the ph down some. Then I also started buying RO (reverse osmosis) water and mixing it 1:1 with my treated tap and slowly brought mine down from 8-8.2 to 7.4-7.6

 

[Pearly]

Hi Kelly, I will only tell you what I know for sure from my own experience. My ph has always been high bcs of tap water in my area is very hard. First I got big piece of driftwood and cut it up to stick a nice piece in each of my tanks (there is some to do about driftwood too if you want to try either look it up or I can tell you how to do it). Some people use peat moss but I just did driftwood. It'll bring the ph down some. Then I also started buying RO (reverse osmosis) water and mixing it 1:1 with my treated tap and slowly brought mine down from 8-8.2 to 7.4-7.6

Forgot to say that RO water I buy is not bottled water from stores, it is filtered tap water from my lfs where they do their own RO processing

 

[DragonGirl]

Are you using the strips or the liquid tests to get your parameters? If you're using the strips they could be lying to you and all your numbers could be really bad

 

[Kelly5978]

I have the high range ph API test kit. And, can you just "get driftwood"? I tried to research, and see that it should be boiled, etc. I don't want to mess the tank up more...but the only place in my town that had driftwood wanted 40 bucks for a little piece. If love to do my own RO water, but that's a long time coming. I have to upgrade tanks first. I've put a lot of money into this "hobby". Of course I will spend more to keep them safe, but I do have limited funds. My fish are all alive this morning, so I'm hoping.... I will let you all know my readings later, but my little marble "suede" didn't eat this morning. He's littiler than the other 3, but it's never been an issue before. I'm thinking of relocating the danios. They bug the angels, and I DID just see the little pink one (danio) nip him. And he just isn't as active. His tail probably makes swimming harder. I'm attaching pic. I REALLY don't think it's fin rot!
Finally, someone pointed out I'm being pretty confusing, and therefore it's hard to help me. Sorry. I have TWO tanks. A 20 gallon with 4 baby angels and 2 neon danios. It's very cloudy (possible bacteria bloom), but my biggest problem is my fav little guys tail is frayed. Ammon, nitrites: 0. Nitrates: 5, almost as dark as just testing my tap water. I'm using 50/50 tap/bottled RO drinking water with prime. We're moving in a month, and I will upgrade to larger tanks and split up angels.
Second tank is 10 gallon (I will NEVER go this small again, it's been a nightmare). It's got 2 gouramis (3" total possible full size, currently a little less than 2"), 1 dwarf gourami, and 2 black skirt tetras. I realize this tank will be overcrowded VERY soon, and am planning to move things around. My problem in this tank is nitrites. I am using prime every 48 hours, and daily water changes. Every day, nitrites are 2 again. Currently I have only about 6-7 inches of fish in this tank. I am feeding less, and am open to any other suggestions. I've been trying to get rid of nitrites for about a week.
Back to the 20 gal...last thought... If suede is hurt, from being bullied, is there anything I can do to help him? Medication or otherwise? He already has a big cave no one else enters, but he only goes there to sleep. Thanks...and sorry for the long thread.

 

[Kelly5978]

I can't figure out how to add a pic of suede. Will try to add to my profile!

 

[Mebbid]

I have the high range ph API test kit. And, can you just "get driftwood"? I tried to research, and see that it should be boiled, etc. I don't want to mess the tank up more...but the only place in my town that had driftwood wanted 40 bucks for a little piece. If love to do my own RO water, but that's a long time coming. I have to upgrade tanks first. I've put a lot of money into this "hobby". Of course I will spend more to keep them safe, but I do have limited funds. My fish are all alive this morning, so I'm hoping.... I will let you all know my readings later, but my little marble "suede" didn't eat this morning. He's littiler than the other 3, but it's never been an issue before. I'm thinking of relocating the danios. They bug the angels, and I DID just see the little pink one (danio) nip him. And he just isn't as active. His tail probably makes swimming harder. I'm attaching pic. I REALLY don't think it's fin rot!
Finally, someone pointed out I'm being pretty confusing, and therefore it's hard to help me. Sorry. I have TWO tanks. A 20 gallon with 4 baby angels and 2 neon danios. It's very cloudy (possible bacteria bloom), but my biggest problem is my fav little guys tail is frayed. Ammon, nitrites: 0. Nitrates: 5, almost as dark as just testing my tap water. I'm using 50/50 tap/bottled RO drinking water with prime. We're moving in a month, and I will upgrade to larger tanks and split up angels.
Second tank is 10 gallon (I will NEVER go this small again, it's been a nightmare). It's got 2 gouramis (3" total possible full size, currently a little less than 2"), 1 dwarf gourami, and 2 black skirt tetras. I realize this tank will be overcrowded VERY soon, and am planning to move things around. My problem in this tank is nitrites. I am using prime every 48 hours, and daily water changes. Every day, nitrites are 2 again. Currently I have only about 6-7 inches of fish in this tank. I am feeding less, and am open to any other suggestions. I've been trying to get rid of nitrites for about a week.
Back to the 20 gal...last thought... If suede is hurt, from being bullied, is there anything I can do to help him? Medication or otherwise? He already has a big cave no one else enters, but he only goes there to sleep. Thanks...and sorry for the long thread.

For treating Suede I would try dosing the tank with melafix. It seems to be a decent preventative medication for bacterial infections. It is also supposed to help speed up the healing process. Also, another highly recommended treatment for just about anything is a methylene blue dip although it can be hard to find. Personally, I would just keep an eye on him and see if his condition worsens while trying to keep the water quality as good as possible. As for the cloudiness in your tank I would assume that its a bacterial bloom which almost all tanks go through.

The nitrites in your 10g tank is being caused by a heavily stocked small tank that isn't fully cycled yet. Trust me, once the nitrite problem disappears it is just as easy to keep a 10g tank as it is to keep a larger tank.. possibly easier.

If you want to add a picture you can go to the User CP and on the left there is a Pictures and Albums link under "networking" after uploading it from there there is a picture insert button up top when you are doing a new post.

 

[Kelly5978]

Thanks! Will watch him before adding meds. He did eat a bloodworm today, but I do believe he's being bullied (he hides....when he used to bounce around the tank, is not anxious to go after food...as if he's afraid to get in anyone's way,and his tail is worse.) I will try to add pics. He's so beautiful! There are still 0 ammon, nitrites. As for the 10 gallon, I've gotten nitrites down to .5 since it was 2 yesterday with water changes. Will keep at it. Thx

 

[Kelly5978]

I tried to post a video, and a pic to the photography/show off section. Was that right ? Can anyone tell me if it worked?

 

[Mebbid]

I tried to post a video, and a pic to the photography/show off section. Was that right ? Can anyone tell me if it worked?

I looked at some of the pics and it really does look like he is being picked on by the other fish. Most likely the lighter colored angels you have in there. They will tend to set up territories in the tank and when another angel wanders into their territory it will be a brawl. With the angel's temperament like it is your only option will most likely be to split them into different tanks, especially if one of the pairs starts to breed. Otherwise, if you have an understanding LFS you can try to switch out the pairs until you find some that will co exist peacefully.

It also might help to completely rearrange the tank so as to confuse the territory boundaries. Adding more decorations is also a good plan while they are all in that tank so they don't see each other as easily

 

[Kelly5978]

Thanks. That's what my bf said (rearrange). It's just so odd that The only nipping I've seen is the danio nipping suede (today). I'm removing them. If it continues after they're gone, I'll split up the angels. The little striped gold one tries to act like the 2 bigger ones, so maybe he's hurting the baby to prove his manhood....(MEN smh). I just watch them so often, I feel bad that I never see it. I really hope it's the danio.

 

[Mebbid]

Yeah, they seem perfectly fine until they go all Jeffrey dahmer on each other when you aren't looking.. angels are really temperamental sometimes. Other times they awed complete sweethearts, it really depends on the specific fish.

 

[Kelly5978]

Well, I just seem to suck at this I went to feed the fish this morning, and it was 84 degrees (felt hotter to the touch). I don't understand how or why, as I didn't touch the heater. The fish were all perfectly still. The 2 small angels wouldn't come out....even for food. I left the lid off, turned off heater (which was still on), and prayed! They started swimming around, and ate....except little suede. He came out, but no food. He stays hidden. It's awful to watch. I can't catch the danio, who I SWEAR is swimming back and firth past suede to further stress him. He literally ran into him once (and suede kinda floated in a circle like he was beyond caring. I'm going to try again at feeding time (to catch danio and relocate). Wish me luck!
Oh, and I have gravel from Walmart (but I did soak in boiling water for half hour when set up tank). I have a cave, wood stump and lots of fake plants.

 

[Mebbid]

Well, I just seem to suck at this I went to feed the fish this morning, and it was 84 degrees (felt hotter to the touch). I don't understand how or why, as I didn't touch the heater. The fish were all perfectly still. The 2 small angels wouldn't come out....even for food. I left the lid off, turned off heater (which was still on), and prayed! They started swimming around, and ate....except little suede. He came out, but no food. He stays hidden. It's awful to watch. I can't catch the danio, who I SWEAR is swimming back and firth past suede to further stress him. He literally ran into him once (and suede kinda floated in a circle like he was beyond caring. I'm going to try again at feeding time (to catch danio and relocate). Wish me luck!
Oh, and I have gravel from Walmart (but I did soak in boiling water for half hour when set up tank). I have a cave, wood stump and lots of fake plants.

A lot of the time it is a bad idea to boil gravel as there is a coating on some types of it. I believe this is most common in the colored gravels that you can buy.

84 degrees isn't too terribly high for fish to handle. What type of heater do you have? I've seen some that for some inexplicable reason heat the water up to 90 degrees. My room mate and I have 4 of them because they were soo cheap when we bought them, they are now regulated to warming up my water before it goes in the tank for water changes.

It sounds like suede might have an internal problem going on if there is no noticeable growth on his skin. It might be a good idea to put him in a hospital tank and treat him. I would try to use a medication called API General Cure. Its main ingredient is metronidazole which works on most parasites and some bacteria so is a fairly large encompassing medication to use.

Setting up a hospital tank is pretty easy. If you don't have an extra aquarium laying around you can use a rubbermaid tote. I would shoot for about 15g capacity on the tote and fill it with 10g of water since that is what most medicine is measured out at for aquariums. For a filter I made my own archaic sponge filters for my breeding tanks. I took a water bottle then cut it in half, put a couple handfulls of gravel in the bottom, added cut to size filter padding on top of that, slid the two halves of the bottle together, cut about 20 lines in the bottom half of the bottle with a utility knife, added some solid tubing that fit in the mouth of the bottle, slid the halves together, and then finally ran an air tube down inside it. They work really well for low flow applications

 

[Kelly5978]

Someone please advise....suede is dying. He floats around the tank, bumping into things. He swam into the bubbles, and literally "spun" to the front of the tank, hit the glass, and floated down. He spends most of his time sitting in the gravel. He looks completely fine in appearance, and the other fish are fine. If there is ANYTHING I can do to save him, please tell me. This is my favorite fish.,..