Angel pair?

[nikkik0720]

I currently have 5 angelfish I just recently bought from Petco. Four of them are about the size of a nickle and the 5th one is a little smaller than a quarter. I have no idea about age. I've been looking into breeding, and already have a tank being cycled for a pair (if/when they pair up). I've noticed the last day or two that the largest one keeps chasing 3 others away from the driftwood in the tank, but allows one to come closer to it than the others. Occasionally he'll (unsure of sex, but been calling it a him) chase the other one away too. Could this be a sign that they may be deciding to pair? What age (or size) do they normally begin to pair up? I've been trying to get pictures, but as soon as the fish see me they swim frantically to the top expecting to be fed and pace the tank, so I can't get a good picture.

I've tried so hard to sex them, but being that they're still small and have not shown any tubes I know it's basically impossible.

The guy at Petco has been breeding for several years and I asked him if there was any way to tell the sex and he told me that if the dorsal fin is rounded (when the fish holds it straight up) it's a female, but if it's pointed then it's a male. I have found no evidence to support this and really doubt that it's true.

Basically any possible information on breeding/sexing angels that anyone can give me is greatly appreciated.

 

[Hobbiest]

Hi, I am not an expert but my angels just finished raising their fry. Mine started free swimming in August and are now about silver dollar size ,some even larger.
There is a way to sex angels but it is not easy, they have a gland before the dorsal fin that will come out when they are ready to spawn. The males is smaller than the females or just wait till they spawn the female will lay the eggs and the male will go behind her and fertilize.
I don't know exactly when they pair off, but I believe yours are way too young yet (not positive). Mine still have not paired off I believe they should be soon though.
There is a thread on here called "wigglers at last "it will help you learn a lot. Beware though angelfish breeding takes a lot of work, many tanks and the fry aren't always that easy to sell or find homes for.
Good luck hope this helps

 

[Hobbiest]

OOPS I should have said anal fin not dorsal

 

[nikkik0720]

I know where the breeding tubes are, but didn't know if there was any other possible way to tell the sex. I know it's a lot of work and money, but there's a small family owned pet store that agreed to take all the babies if/when I have any to sell. I've read through the majority of the "wigglers at last" post. I asked up at Petco if they had any clue an approx. age on the angels they get in and they are clueless. All they could tell me is they are all sold to them at about 1.25"

I was looking closer at my 5 and noticed that two of the angels appear to have a more bumped head than the other three. I've read that this could be an indication that the fish is a male. If that's the case then the one semi-aggressive one would be a male. The other fish he mainly chases would be the other 'male', and the ones he allows near his "spot" would be the females.

I haven't noticed any sort of lip-locking, but have noticed that the one male will purposely swim next to the other and bump into him on purpose. They are the only two that do that, and the yellow one is always doing the bumping.

Sorry that I am kinda rambling on.

Anyway, I'm going to try to post the pictures of the two that I think are males. The yellow one is the biggest of the 5 angels and is also the one that is more aggressive. He's closer to the size of a quarter. The other one is about the size of a nickle, maybe a little bigger.

 

[nikkik0720]

Can anyone give me more insight?

 

[absolutangel04]

At nickel size, your angels are too small to be paired off. Give it more time. Your largest one might be aggressive purely because it is larger. They will shoal up young, and swim in a group but as they grow they get more territorial. Some individuals are more aggressive than others. Watch the bigger one for bullying though.

 

[nikkik0720]

I added another plant (fake as my live ones are going through a quarantine process too to make sure their not haboring a bunch of snail eggs; my parents had that happen to them way back when they had their first tank and were overwhelmed with baby snails). This seemed to put a little damper on the chasing/aggression. I didn't think they were near old enough to be pairing off or anything, but figured I'd still ask on here as I'm not too experienced with angels. The platys (which are photobombing the second angels picture) also seemed to help the yellow one become calmer (he isnt aggressive towards them, he actually hangs out with them more than the other angels). I think they just needed to get their pecking order figured out and get territories established.

I'm really looking forward to watching these 5 grow and see if/when they pair off who it'll be with. Is it possible for a trio to form? Or should I go out and get another (similar sized) angel and add it in?

 

[absolutangel04]

It is very rare for angel trios to form. I wouldn't bet on it. If it happens that you get 2 pairs, you will need to rehome the odd angel out so it won't get bullied. Once they are bigger, adding another angel is always shaky. Sometimes it works fine, sometimes not. If you are going to add another, it is better to do it when they are young. But, then you run the risk of getting too many angels. Do you have places for that many adult angels?

 

[nikkik0720]

I'm in the works of getting a 55 for the angels, and then trying to get 2 29s for breeding pairs (if they happen to pair). The odd man out will be left in the main tank (currently a 36) with the 3 platys, 1 cory, pair of swords, and lone gourami (since I returned the other one).

All in all, I am working on getting multiple tanks for breeding the angels, as well as having the main 36g, 20g QT, 10g for live bearer fry, and whatever others I end up getting.

(Not sure if I'm making sense, I have a migraine as I'm typing this)

 

[Hobbiest]

It is almost impossible to just add another young angel and guarantee all of them will pair off perfectly because you can't sex them that young. You could end up with any combination of males and females out of the five you have but if they can't pair off perfectly I hope you have more females than males or you'll have issues to deal with.
What size aquarium do you have? I have a 65 gal with three angels in it, two are a breeding pair and I have issues. There were two pairs but my largest angel lost her mate( which happened to be another female) a long time ago. I hope I can get her a mate out of the 15 juveniles I still have out of the last spawn, but I have to wait until they are old enough to tell if it is male or female. This is only one of the very frustrating aspects of angelfish.

 

[Hobbiest]

Sounds like you have a plan, but you'll also have to get a huge tank to use for a grow out tank. Good luck to you

 

[Andy Sager]

As previously mentioned, your fish are way to young to be pairing off yet. At that 1.25" size, they are approx 3-4 months old. They don;t start thinking about breeding until they are about 8-10 months old. What are seeing is the hierarchy society that Angelfish live under. There will always be a top dog in a group and a lowly peon. You'll see a pecking order develop as the fish get more used to the tank and time goes on.
As for the fins being used for sexing the fish, it's actually the anal fin that has the difference and not really the dorsal. But in today's fish, this really only holds true most of the time. In wild caught fish, it's the standard.
Again, as mentioned previously, it might do you well to read and study the thread "Wigglers at last!!!" in this breeding forum. Pretty much everything you need to know about breeding Angelfish and raising the fry had been discussed on that thread. So much so that someone with no fish experience at all, if they followed what was written, would be successful at it. Thankfully, you have time before you will see any mating behavior with your fish so it's a good time to learn what to expect and what to look for.

Good luck

 

[nikkik0720]

I'm going to keep a lookout for tanks on craigslist, traders guide, and goodwill (as long as it's in good condition). My mom isn't thrilled that I have so many tanks, and am going to be getting at least 1 55 (or bigger).

I have read all but the last 5 pages of Wigglers at Last (going to finish reading it tonight).

I figured the angels were too young, and were probably establishing their pecking order. I'm glad I was able to get an approx. age on the angels. Petco has no idea about the ages of their fish.

Is it normal for them to want to eat so much? They currently get fed twice a day (FD Bloodworms and Aqueon Tropical Flakes) and they get like two big pinches of flakes and a small pinch of bloodworms. All the food will be gone in like 2 minutes (which is why I got the cory some sinking wafers). Should I increase how much I'm feeding? (I can't feed 3 times a day right now because nobody is home in the middle of the day to feed) There's plants, and a huge driftwood piece they always pick at (getting algae/microorganisms/etc. I assume)

 

[Andy Sager]

Yes, the fish will always look like they haven't been fed in weeks. Mine are hanging at the tops of the tanks, looking for food, even tho I just fed them a minute earlier. Stick with your feeding amount per feeding but if possible, and your filter and water change schedule allows for it, try adding feedings opposed to adding more food per feeding. I do see some of my medium fish picking at the Java Moss I let grow in their tanks so if you have something in the tank for them to nibble on in between feedings, you should be okay.
Obviously, as the fish get larger, you will need to increase the amount of food at each feeding. I'd also try to add some more variety into their diet as well. Feed the bloodworms a couple of times per week and add something like frozen or FD Brine shrimp or tubifex worms or daphnia on the other days so that the fish get some extra roughage in their systems.
My feeding schedule is as follows: Morning: Omega 1 Flakes, Afternoon: FD Bloodworms or FD Tubifex worms or Flake, Evening: Frozen brine shrimp. The brine shrimp is for the roughage and man, do they ever poop!!! lol

Hope this helps.

 

[nikkik0720]

I want to increase feedings to 3x a day, but nobody's home during the afternoon right now (my gram's in the hospital so we've been down with her when we aren't working/at school). There's a moss ball (about the size of a baseball) that is connected to fishing line and a rock that floats, an assorted mix plant (I lost the tag, so I have no clue what the plants are, but they're decent sized and pretty) and a huge piece of driftwood that has a little bit of stuff growing on it that they pick at.

I am going to get some FD shrimp/krill, Cichlid pellets, and (if my mom will let me) some frozen foods (she doesn't like the idea of having frozen worms/'fish stuff' in the freezer near our food)

 

[Andy Sager]

I want to increase feedings to 3x a day, but nobody's home during the afternoon right now (my gram's in the hospital so we've been down with her when we aren't working/at school). There's a moss ball (about the size of a baseball) that is connected to fishing line and a rock that floats, an assorted mix plant (I lost the tag, so I have no clue what the plants are, but they're decent sized and pretty) and a huge piece of driftwood that has a little bit of stuff growing on it that they pick at.

I am going to get some FD shrimp/krill, Cichlid pellets, and (if my mom will let me) some frozen foods (she doesn't like the idea of having frozen worms/'fish stuff' in the freezer near our food)

My Mom was the same way about my fish food too when I was younger. lol I would keep it wrapped up tight in containers or newspaper so she didn;t have to look at the packages. That was the compromise I had to live with. Keep it clean and out of sight and no problems. You might want to try that. If it's still a no go on the frozen, I soak my FD foods in tank water prior to feeding them to the fish so they are not too dry when the fish eat them. That also can help them with digestion.

As for the cichlid pellets, I'm not so sure about them for Angels. I'd look into pelleted foods specifically for Angelfish ( if there is such a thing?) over a general cichlid diet. Because of their compressed shape, Angels, while cichlids, don;t have the same digestive abilities of other cichlids.

Hope this helps

 

[nikkik0720]

I'll try soaking the FD food first in some tank water. As I'm typing this my one angel (the big yellow one) is staring intently at me begging for more food (even though I JUST fed them not even 5 minutes ago; gave some FD bloodworms as a little snack because they were really begging)

Maybe I can get her to let me keep them in the freezer in the basement. Sure, I'd have to run down a flight of steps every time I fed them, but if it's what's best for my fishes, I'd do it.

The angels were going crazy over the sinking pellets/wafers I got for my cory. The little pigs eat everything. Is there any way to make sure that he's getting enough food? Are there certain signs I should look for (other than nice clear eyes, healthy looking skin/scales, active) to make sure he's okay?
Right now he's the only one I have since the others I got with him all died the day I got them, and Petco hasn't gotten anymore in in awhile...

 

[Andy Sager]

The only way I know is to watch that he is getting and eating the food when you feed. After that, it's just a matter of making sure the fish is not getting skinny. If it is, it's not getting enough of what you are feeding.

As for your piggy Angels, lol, just because they eat it doesn't mean that it's good for them. That's all I was bringing up. Find foods designed more for the Angelfish specifically.

 

[nikkik0720]

Yeah, I definitely don't want to over feed them (even though they eat everything/anything they're given)

 

[nikkik0720]

So I found a person on facebook and they were getting rid of their 15 gal column tank. It has the filter, heater, and thermometer, and even the water. They were also getting rid of their two adult angels (one a known female as she has laid eggs, and the other is a male as far as they know; they just got him as their other proven male died from old age). I paid $80. They were selling because of money issues, they had to make some cuts on tanks so they decided to get rid of the angels. So I now have an adult pair of angels (the female is a little over a year, and the male is about 10-11 months old. They are both huge, and extremely healthy)
I put some of the sand from my other tank into this one, as well as the driftwood and live plants (as the other fish hated the plant and actually avoided it... I got a really neat resin rock bridge type thing on clearance at Petco for $10, and it's supposed to be like $30). So I have the tank all nice and set up. The seller tested the water to prove everything was okay (and the readings were all perfect. 0 Ammonia, 0 Nitrite, pH was like 7 something (I cant remember the decimal at the time).

So my question is now, what should I look for as far as pairing? The people said they've only had the two together for 2-3 days now, so they aren't sure if the angels will pair or not. Can a male and female just be put together, or do they have to 'choose'?
I have the water temp at 80-82 right now, is that where it should be?

I went to the local LFS to get some food since I'm running low, and I had to get hay for my chinchillas. Of course my dad and I were looking at their fish, and their angelfish breeder was in. So we talked to him (since I was concerned about the tank size being small) and he said he's raised/bred his angels in 10 gallon tanks for the last 40 years and has never had an issue as long as the filter is good and you do regular water changes. He seemed really knowledgeable so I feel like I can trust him. Before talking to him, I was thinking of getting another 29 just for them, but my mom is already annoyed at all the tanks I have (1 55, a 20 long, a 29 long, a 36, 2 10 gals and now this new 15)

So will they be okay? They seem very happy and comfortable. They're eating great, and swimming all around. They come to the front of the tank any time anyone walks in the room or anywhere near the tank (a good sign I take it?).
I've only had them for about 8 hours, and they're always swimming like right next to each other and like hanging out by the floating moss ball (they've been pecking at it, getting some snacks).

Sorry for my rambling.