Angel pair?

[Andy Sager]

It's all in the "Wigglers!!!" thread.

 

[itskatieebaby23]

Look at the shape of their head and body, males have a round body and females have angled body. Males have a bump on their head and females have a slope like shape on their head. Makes hold their (feelers) erect and females keep them close to their body. Males generally have larger fins than females.

These are my angel fish
I am pretty sure the black stripped silver angel is a male and the koi angel is a female. the two seem to have paired up. They swim everywhere with each other and have a certain territory. It's pretty hard to sex a black stripped angel or koi by their fins. This is cause they don't get too large of fins as they grow , in my experience.


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[nikkik0720]

So here are the pictures of the pair I got. I showed pictures to the LFS angel breeder and he said he believes the orange is a male. We know the black is a female, as she's laid eggs before. Her breeding tube is still exposed (I guess she last laid eggs like 5 days ago) but the male isn't showing anything. The female is a little over 1 year, and her body is about 3 inches (not including fins, just the body). The male is around 8-10 months old and is probably around 2 1/2 inches (again, just body, not fins).

Could I get opinions on the sexes and what colors they'd be considered? I think the black is some sort of marble, but I'm not sure. The orange has me baffled at the color. He has some really shiny/iridescent patches on him.

Here's some pictures. They're the best I can get as they aren't very photogenic yet (You can see the 29 gallon sitting next to it, it's mainly my dad's, but two of my young angels are in it because they were being bullied by the other 3.)

The black one (female)

The Orange one (believed to be male)

The do swim around together, but they'll also go out off on their own. The orange one was cleaning a leaf and kept chasing the black away, which made me question if they were pairing up, or even if they were opposite sex. I talked to the LFS, and if they don't pair, or happen to both be female, they'll happily switch the orange one out for me (in hopes to get a male) They have several large angels (all between 2 1/2" and 3" body size) and they all come from 2 breeders that have been selling to them for many years.

 

[Andy Sager]

Because there is white in the body of the "orange" one but no real red or orange in it, it could be considered either a poorly colored Koi or a nicely colored Gold Marble. The female is a marble veiltail however, many marbles today are really very dark Kois showing little to no orange coloration.
Here is a pic of 2 of my fish. They are both from the same pair and spawn. One, you'll notice, has orange on it, making it a Koi, while it's sibling shows no orange. The parents are a Koi/ Gold Marble? pair. For me, the other one looks like what used to be called a Gold Marble. That's what yours looks like to me as well.
But what's in a name?

 

[nikkik0720]

I really don't care what "name" of the color is. I just saw several people talking about the different "types" of colors and thought it'd be interesting to ask.
So do you believe the orange is a male, Andy?

Anyway, I posted this also in the Unhealthy Fish part of the forum, I tested my water today and got really odd readings... Can I link it here and get some more advice?

 

[Andy Sager]

I really don't care what "name" of the color is. I just saw several people talking about the different "types" of colors and thought it'd be interesting to ask.
So do you believe the orange is a male, Andy?

It does seem to have a few of the characteristics I use to sex Angels but I won't say positively that it's a male. The next step would be behavior towards your other fish but since I am not there to see it, can't say. The definitive answer comes when /if they spawn. He should be the one NOT laying the eggs. I say it jokingly but here's the issues: if these are 2 females, Pairing does not mean they are male & female and spawning together doesn't mean they are male and female. Not laying eggs and the eggs hatching means they are a male & female.

As for your other issue, I have no idea if you can link the 2. Might just be better off reposting it on this thread?

Hope this helps

 

[nikkik0720]

The breeder I talked to in person said that sometimes you can tell the sex by the way the anal fin is. If it's perpendicular to the underbelly line, they tend to be female. If it forms more of a straight line, it tends to be male. The only problem with this, is the known female has a pretty straight line between the belly and anal fin. Her head is much more sloped, whereas the orange has a definite bump on his forehead. How often can angels lay eggs and is there a time they're more prone to spawning? (Like morning, evening?)

 

[absolutangel04]

In the interest of staying on topic and getting people to see both questions independently, you should probably just leave your other question where it is since people have already been answering you.

 

[Andy Sager]

The breeder I talked to in person said that sometimes you can tell the sex by the way the anal fin is. If it's perpendicular to the underbelly line, they tend to be female. If it forms more of a straight line, it tends to be male. The only problem with this, is the known female has a pretty straight line between the belly and anal fin. Her head is much more sloped, whereas the orange has a definite bump on his forehead. How often can angels lay eggs and is there a time they're more prone to spawning? (Like morning, evening?)

The anal fin method was one of the ways I was first trained on. It works about 90% - 99% of the time....on wild fish. However, with today's fish, there are so many fish with both male and female characteristics that, at best, it's a guess. Only spawning is fool proof. I saw a beautiful male Angel in a display tank in a shop and asked about buying it. It had a nice crown hump on it's head and the fins were so male like. I told the clerk that I needed the male for a female I wanted to breed which was when he told me that it was a female and had spawned in the tank multiple times and that he had recently lost the fish's male and was looking for a male for her himself. So much for head humps and anal angles being good indicators.

As for how often, the fastest I've had was every 7 days. I average about every 10 days with my fish.
As for a desired time, whenever the fish want to. I have had fish spawn just hours after a water change, right after a feeding, in the dark, as the lights are about to go out, as the lights just went on, etc. All different times. Wild fish are more predictable. lol I just had a male postpone spawning until after he had his dinner. The female had laid about 3 lines of eggs and just ate them since the male was not part of the act. Once he was done eating, the 2 spawned together. I watched the whole thing. They are a funny lot for sure. lol
So the best way to handle breeding these fish is to "be prepared".

 

[nikkik0720]

They definitely are funny. The 6 juveniles I have in 2 separate tanks all have unique personalities. It's really neat. I haven't seen to much from the adults, as we're both still learning each other's routines. They've been spending a lot of time together, and have been cleaning the shale rock together. They've also been cleaning the driftwood, but I have a feeling that that's more because there's "snacks" on it. I've been keeping the tank between 82-84 degrees (it's 84 during the day, but drops to 82 when the light's off.) Is this a good temp? Or should I lower it? I had it higher because there was a tiny white spot on the girl's side, so I put a little salt in and turned the heat up to get ahead of any ich that may possibly be forming (the spot's gone, and no others have formed).
I have 3 small cories in the tank, should I take them out?

Sorry for so many questions. I've read both Wiggler's threads and have done a lot of research online, but I'd much rather ask here and get personal experiences than just trust what the internet says.

 

[Andy Sager]

They definitely are funny. The 6 juveniles I have in 2 separate tanks all have unique personalities. It's really neat. I haven't seen to much from the adults, as we're both still learning each other's routines. They've been spending a lot of time together, and have been cleaning the shale rock together. They've also been cleaning the driftwood, but I have a feeling that that's more because there's "snacks" on it. I've been keeping the tank between 82-84 degrees (it's 84 during the day, but drops to 82 when the light's off.) Is this a good temp? Or should I lower it? I had it higher because there was a tiny white spot on the girl's side, so I put a little salt in and turned the heat up to get ahead of any ich that may possibly be forming (the spot's gone, and no others have formed).
I have 3 small cories in the tank, should I take them out?

Sorry for so many questions. I've read both Wiggler's threads and have done a lot of research online, but I'd much rather ask here and get personal experiences than just trust what the internet says.

The plus side to keeping the temp up high is it makes the eggs hatch faster. The downside, as I've experienced it, is that there are more "retarded" or unkeepable fry when they develop too fast. I prefer to keep my breeders and eggs at 78-80 degrees.
As for the ich situation, I believe you need to have the temp above 85 degrees in order for it to be effective and above 89 degrees to kill it.
As for your cories, some species will not tolerate higher temps while some will for a short amount of time. You will need to look up your specie to know if you need to remove the fish from the tank based on your temp.

When the fish get serious about spawning, they will not peck at the spawning site, they will scrape it vigorously. So if they aren't doing that to either site, they are most likely just pecking for food.

Hope this helps

 

[nikkik0720]

I noticed today that the black (female) was very large and bloated looking so I skipped the morning feeding. The orange one is fine. I noticed about an hour later the female was pooping, so I know she's not constipated or bloated/overfed. I fed them just a little bit and gave some FD bloodworms to see if that helped. Well tonight she's still very bloated looking. Could she be gravid? The people say she spawned the day before I got them and I've had them 3 days. So it's been 4-5 days since she last laid eggs. Is this normal? She's still acting the same, and has actually shown more interest in the orange angel.

I wish I knew for sure if the orange one was a male or not, this would probably make things a lot easier and make me question things less.

 

[Andy Sager]

I noticed today that the black (female) was very large and bloated looking so I skipped the morning feeding. The orange one is fine. I noticed about an hour later the female was pooping, so I know she's not constipated or bloated/overfed. I fed them just a little bit and gave some FD bloodworms to see if that helped. Well tonight she's still very bloated looking. Could she be gravid? The people say she spawned the day before I got them and I've had them 3 days. So it's been 4-5 days since she last laid eggs. Is this normal? She's still acting the same, and has actually shown more interest in the orange angel.

I wish I knew for sure if the orange one was a male or not, this would probably make things a lot easier and make me question things less.

If you know it's a female, it's old enough to spawn, is having normal bodily functions..... then most likely she is filling up with eggs. As I said earlier, they can spawn as often as every 7 days so her plumping up 4-5 days after her last spawn is within a reasonable timeframe.
As for what the results of this will be is still an unknown and you knowing what the sex is of your orange fish will not change that. Sorry The best you can have is a spawn that you hatch out, (not letting the parents hatch them out) and you see at least 1 live fry from it. THAT will answer all your questions regarding genders and fertility. Anything else can only open yourself to more questions than answers.

Hope this helps

 

[nikkik0720]

I want to hatch out a spawn, but I don't have a tank set up right now for it. I have a nice 10 gallon I want to use for spawns/fry, but have to get a heater still. I guess I'll be able to tell if they're actually male/female and fertile if the eggs they lay turn the amber color they're supposed to (if they dont eat the eggs first of course). I'm hoping they turn out to be a male/female pair and end up being good parents. The breeder I talked to at the LFS said he has a few pairs who are amazing parents, and have a 75%+ hatch rate, and other pairs that will eat the eggs within minutes of laying.

So hopefully if I do have a pair, they end up being good parents.

 

[Andy Sager]

I want to hatch out a spawn, but I don't have a tank set up right now for it. I have a nice 10 gallon I want to use for spawns/fry, but have to get a heater still. I guess I'll be able to tell if they're actually male/female and fertile if the eggs they lay turn the amber color they're supposed to (if they dont eat the eggs first of course). I'm hoping they turn out to be a male/female pair and end up being good parents. The breeder I talked to at the LFS said he has a few pairs who are amazing parents, and have a 75%+ hatch rate, and other pairs that will eat the eggs within minutes of laying.

So hopefully if I do have a pair, they end up being good parents.

just an FYI, the eggs they lay will be amber in color to start with. You just don;t want them to turn white. That means they are dead.
As for the rest of it, only time will tell.
Good luck

 

[Hobbiest]

My male/female pair had many unsuccessful spawns before they raised fry on their own and then they were great parents so just because they don't make it the first umpteen times they try does not mean they won't be good parents eventually. I also had a female/female pair and the way I found out is watching very carefully when they spawn you will see them both dropping eggs.

 

[Andy Sager]

Here is a picture of a female taken yesterday prior to her spawning today. She spawned exactly 7 days ago and in that time, filled up with a lot of eggs as you can see on the slate. Each fish is different. I have some pairs that spawn every 14-17 days and this one that now is every 7. There is no absolute anymore. On their last spawn, I removed the eggs and she blamed the male for losing the spawn and beat him up some. My other pairs let me take the spawns and have no reaction to their mates. There is no telling whether your fish will ever be good parents. Some fish are just egg eaters and always will be. Some will never get it right and raise a spawn. Some will. At this point, you just want to make sure you have a m/f fertile pair so you can even use a glass bottle to hatch out the spawn. If you don't have a heater, you can leave the bottle in the main tank so it stays the same temp as the tank. You can see me doing this here at post #145. http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f82/wigglers-2-birth-of-a-hatchery-324616-15.html

Hope this helps

 

[nikkik0720]

I found several groups on facebook who breed angels. The one guy can pretty much guarantee that the orange is male. As far as being a fertile pair, I still have to wait and see I guess. The females breeding tube is about twice the length it was when I got them, but the orange still shows no signs of a breeding tube. I'm still working on getting my water to stablize again. It's staying pretty consistent, but I know some levels aren't very good.
Ammonia 0.5-1.0ppm
NitrAte 20-40ppm
NitrIte 1.0-3.0ppm
Total Hardness (GH) 25-75
Total Chlorine 0ppm
Total Alkalinity(KH) 0-40ppm
pH 6.8-7.2
Temperature is between 82-84 degrees (drops closer to 82 at night when the light's off)

How can I raise the Alkalinity? It's all staying stable at these levels. I'm going to do 2 25% WC's (one now, and one in a few hours)

All the fish are fine and happy. I have a floating moss ball, a mini Marimo moss ball, and an assorted plant (not sure what all is planted in the mix) I also have a nice piece of driftwood in the tank.

 

[Mr Fisher]

I found several groups on facebook who breed angels. The one guy can pretty much guarantee that the orange is male. As far as being a fertile pair, I still have to wait and see I guess. The females breeding tube is about twice the length it was when I got them, but the orange still shows no signs of a breeding tube. I'm still working on getting my water to stablize again. It's staying pretty consistent, but I know some levels aren't very good.
Ammonia 0.5-1.0ppm
NitrAte 20-40ppm
NitrIte 1.0-3.0ppm
Total Hardness (GH) 25-75
Total Chlorine 0ppm
Total Alkalinity(KH) 0-40ppm
pH 6.8-7.2
Temperature is between 82-84 degrees (drops closer to 82 at night when the light's off)

How can I raise the Alkalinity? It's all staying stable at these levels. I'm going to do 2 25% WC's (one now, and one in a few hours)

All the fish are fine and happy. I have a floating moss ball, a mini Marimo moss ball, and an assorted plant (not sure what all is planted in the mix) I also have a nice piece of driftwood in the tank.

was this tank cycled and in a mini cycle?

 

[nikkik0720]

The people I bought the tank from had it up and running for well over a year before I bought it from them. They included the water and everything. All I added was some of the sand from my one other tank (it's been cycled and running with no problems for about a year) and I added some plants and driftwood (also from the cycled tank). I've done 2 water changes because the ammonia spiked to 3ppm (we have no clue why) I put more Tetra Safe Start plus is (half a bottle, the whole bottle treats 20 gallons), and added Aqueon water clarifier to the tap water before adding it to the tank. I also added a little aquarium salt (I read it can help with the stress of a water change)
The fish are swimming all around and very active and healthy. Their appetites are increased since I got them, but I think that's just because they get more variety from me than their old owners. (They get a pinch of tropical flakes in the morning, FD bloodworms and some thawed brine shrimp in the after noon, and a tiny pinch of flakes again 30 minutes before the lights are off for the night. I have to add 2-3 sinking wafers for the 3 cory cats (they are only in the angel tank temporarily because the one in the main tank is really aggressive towards them. I'm working on getting another tank cycled, but I may just rehome them) Everything is always eaten within 3 minutes of being given (except for the cory cat tabs, they only get them in the morning, and by the evening they're gone)

I'm slowing getting the ammonia back to normal, but what I'm worried about is the nitItres and the alkalinity being so low.