Can you mix cichlids

[Andy Sager]

You can tell people not to mix cichlids for all sorts of environmentally and zoologically sound reasons, but the fact is, despite how hard we try, we are keeping aquariums, not natural habitat. The parameters and comfort zones will vary, regardless of targeted conditions and skills applied in achieving them. It can be done, and done well.

Will do.

Granted, we do keep a number of different species of fishes together in aquariums that would not be found together in nature HOWEVER, that does not mean that all fish can be kept together. An Oscar, for example, will still eat a Guppy whether it's a wild one or a tank/farm raised variety. A BA tetra will still chew off the fins of a frilly finned fish and a fish that needs a high mineral content water will not do as well in a low mineral water just as a low mineral content water fish will not do well in high mineral water. SOMEBODY will be suffering and not living their best potential life. So there is a very small, if any, window of comfort zone for contrasting fishes like these. Considering that the OP is talking about fish that very well may be wild, care should given as if they are working with these wild fish.

Just my opinion.

 

[acewiza]

Nobody's saying ALL fish can be kept together, Andy. And it certainly is a really bad idea in some cases like you mention. But predators and prey have coexisted everywhere since the beginning of time. Habitats don't always have impenetrable barriers between them, either. Some species cross freely between widely disparate environments. Detailed assessment and recognized guidelines apply for the purpose of aquaria. I just wanted to point out how I found stocking level to be a big factor in mixing cichlids. Believe me when I say, I have experienced the bad that happens when the wrong ones get together in too small a tank.

 

[Brookster123]

Nobody's saying ALL fish can be kept together, Andy. And it certainly is a really bad idea in some cases like you mention. But predators and prey have coexisted everywhere since the beginning of time. Habitats don't always have impenetrable barriers between them, either. Some species cross freely between widely disparate environments. Detailed assessment and recognized guidelines apply for the purpose of aquaria. I just wanted to point out how I found stocking level to be a big factor in mixing cichlids. Believe me when I say, I have experienced the bad that happens when the wrong ones get together in too small a tank.

Yah.. but that's the food chain and nature and stuff.. we're talking about a very small closed system in which you and only you have complete control. Why make it a gamble? You want different types of fish? Get different types of tanks.. it's simple really... anyone who's made a real go of the mix and match usually doesn't have much good to report back on. With these types of "tests" things can happen fast and most likely at night so...

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[Andy Sager]

Nobody's saying ALL fish can be kept together, Andy. And it certainly is a really bad idea in some cases like you mention. But predators and prey have coexisted everywhere since the beginning of time. Habitats don't always have impenetrable barriers between them, either. Some species cross freely between widely disparate environments. Detailed assessment and recognized guidelines apply for the purpose of aquaria. I just wanted to point out how I found stocking level to be a big factor in mixing cichlids. Believe me when I say, I have experienced the bad that happens when the wrong ones get together in too small a tank.

I suggest you read the following 2 articles. They may help you understand my point. First is about the 3 main lakes in Africa. The 2nd is about the Amazon and surrounding waters.

The Chemistry of the African Rift Lakes


Chemical composition of black-watered rivers in the western Amazon Region (Brazil)

Notice the conclusions of both papers. It's evidence to the point that in order to maintain one correctly, you are hurting the other. Maybe slowly but none the less.

 

[acewiza]

Oh the Suffering!!

Chemical composition of black-watered rivers in the western Amazon Region (Brazil)

I'm not trying to transform my tap water into Amazon river water. The best I can do is keep it clean and somewhere near a neutral Ph.

 

[Andy Sager]

I'm not trying to transform my tap water into Amazon river water. The best I can do is keep it clean and somewhere near a neutral Ph.

That's great but if you try to keep African Cichlids like that, you'd not be doing them any favors. Depending on which lake they come from, based on the article I posted, they need hard alkaline water. Conversely, South American Cichlids need soft acidic water ( wild ones not domesticated). See the difference?

Back in the day, when all we were mostly getting were wild fish, the only way to keep these fish alive was to recreate the amazon water parameters. If you didn't the fish died. It was only from the F1s and later generations that were brought up in non amazonian water that began to handle the change.

 

[acewiza]

That's great but if you try to keep African Cichlids like that, you'd not be doing them any favors.

I understand and respect what you're saying Andy - really I do. But we're not back in the day, and I live in Colorado. Let's try and put this in perspective, from a practical standpoint. Do you really believe in terms of water chemistry, there is any difference between average aquarium Guy#1's tank of South Americans and average aquarium Guy#2's tank of Africans, on the other side of the street? And they can't both be doing just fine, with healthy, thriving fish?

I'm pretty sure our new African is doing better than he was before he left his old home. We'll see how things go as time progresses, but I'm not gonna worry about it for the time being...

 

[Brookster123]

I understand and respect what you're saying Andy - really I do. But we're not back in the day, and I live in Colorado. Let's try and put this in perspective, from a practical standpoint. Do you really believe in terms of water chemistry, there is any difference between average aquarium Guy#1's tank of South Americans and average aquarium Guy#2's tank of Africans, on the other side of the street? And they can't both be doing just fine, with healthy, thriving fish?

I'm pretty sure our new African is doing better than he was before he left his old home. We'll see how things go as time progresses, but I'm not gonna worry about it for the time being...

There is always a few ways to do things..sure! Some certainly work better than others is all

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[Andy Sager]

I understand and respect what you're saying Andy - really I do. But we're not back in the day, and I live in Colorado. Let's try and put this in perspective, from a practical standpoint. Do you really believe in terms of water chemistry, there is any difference between average aquarium Guy#1's tank of South Americans and average aquarium Guy#2's tank of Africans, on the other side of the street? And they can't both be doing just fine, with healthy, thriving fish?

I'm pretty sure our new African is doing better than he was before he left his old home. We'll see how things go as time progresses, but I'm not gonna worry about it for the time being...

Do you really believe in terms of water chemistry, there is any difference between average aquarium Guy#1's tank of South Americans and average aquarium Guy#2's tank of Africans, on the other side of the street?
Yes, there should be a difference. Depending on what you are starting with, either one has to add things to the water or subtract them.
And they can't both be doing just fine, with healthy, thriving fish? No, they won't both be doing fine without adjusting the water ( unless they are coming from tap water that mostly resembles the African's water and the SA Cichlids are domesticated fish not wild and used to hard alkaline water. ) But whether they are or aren't isn't the issue. What they should be, is. One thing to remember is that not all water around the country ( or a state in some cases) is the same all around. There is a reason why. Fish of different types use different minerals and elements in the water to make and keep themselves healthy. Just because you take them out of that water does not mean they no longer needs these things. Just because you want to mix Africans and SAs or CAs does not make it a good idea. If we are trying to keep our pet fish in the best possible way, there are some guidelines that should be met.
I've had the fortune to have dealt with people around the country and the world so I know all water is not the same water. The case for hardness ( general and carbonate) still shows up today with breeders of domesticated fish. AA member CoralBandit has to reduce his TDS for his Rams to breed but I don't for my Angels. Why? They are both S. American Cichlids aren't they? It's because the fish need different water. Tank raised African Cichlids still need hard alkaline water for optimal health while S. American Cichlids have made the transition from softer to harder waters.
So as to not belabor the point, water requirements should be the first step in deciding whether fish can mix followed by compatibility,etc.

As for your new rescues doing better in your tank than the tank they came from, that could also mean that the water parameters of that tank were worse than yours even tho yours is not optimal. While I do hope you don't experience any difficulties with your current mix, I don't expect that to be a long term success. That's just from experience. But I am not the "Cichlid Police" so you do what you want. I'm just sayin' that for others, it's a bad example to follow.

 

[coralbandit]

Wow!
You can lead a keeper to water ,but you can't make them change it...
Good luck mixing.
Bad results usually follow bad advice when followed.
God bless you Mr. Sager! You have the heart and patience of a saint.
Saint Andy I say.

 

[Andy Sager]

Wow!
You can lead a keeper to water ,but you can't make them change it...
Good luck mixing.
Bad results usually follow bad advice when followed.
God bless you Mr. Sager! You have the heart and patience of a saint.
Saint Andy I say.

Bless you my Son.
I just figured your situation was a perfect example of why it matters.

 

[fishyb]

Well, I have decided I am not going to mix them. I am hitting the pavement really hard doing some tank shopping. Looking for the perfect size, shape, and deal. After I get the tank that I want I will be putting it in my house and buy a canister filter for it. Then after that I will try and decide what I want. I will post pictures though. I did go to a couple of good size specialized fish stores and looked at what they had. Seen a few fresh waters eels. I thought those where cool. I am just happy that this time I am going through the forum before I by anything so I can do it right and not have an over crowded, EXTREMLY high maintenance tank like I had last time.

 

[Freakgecko91]

Except that mbuna are herbivorous, occasionally snacking on a protein source. Large amounts of protein can easily cause bloat in herbivorous species, which can be difficult to treat, and is often fatal. Large amounts of protein is often required for south and Central Americans.




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[acewiza]

Answer is Yes! Absolutely.

There is always a few ways to do things..sure! Some certainly work better than others is all

Well, here we are 2 months later, everybody including the African in my SA Cichlid tank Is doing fine. No sick or dead fish, no excessive aggression and no overnight assassination attempts.

Looks like this particular situation is working better than others, contrary to conventional wisdom. That's the problem with "conventional wisdom" - it's conventional, and subject to the effects of time, technology and good old human ingenuity.

Whodathunkit?

 

[Brookster123]

Well, here we are 2 months later, everybody including the African in my SA Cichlid tank Is doing fine. No sick or dead fish, no excessive aggression and no overnight assassination attempts.

Looks like this particular situation is working better than others, contrary to conventional wisdom. That's the problem with "conventional wisdom" - it's conventional, and subject to the affects of time, technology and good old human ingenuity.

Whodathunkit?

. I was keeping electric blue Acara with a thorichthys maculipinnis. I was told the Acara would tool on the thory and it probably wouldn't work long term. Ok, I was prepared to move whomever whenever. I was too late. The thory, a year later, is pushing 6 inches and has a horrible temperament. During feedings he rushed around and clears the tank into corners, I'd hear fish hitting the glass lids, one day my biggest Acara was dead, no signs of sickness. Don't know but I'm guessing it was a fish on fish crime.
2 months is hardly a milestone

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[acewiza]

2 months is hardly a milestone

Time will tell...

 

[Brookster123]

Time will tell...

That's what I just said haha

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[acewiza]

That's what I just said haha

And what I meant was: some people often fail to realize how their personal experience does not necessarily correlate to the world at large. It's akin the biased sample fallacy where in this case, x number of Internet-connected aquarium experts and marine biologists reach the conclusion that mixing SA and African cichlids is a BAD thing. The problem with the groupthink in this case is the very small amount of data supporting the claim relative to the world of aquarists at large and their disregard for contrary findings.

The last bit leads off into other logical pitfalls, but you get the idea.

 

[Brookster123]

Surely.. can't reach them all

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[acewiza]

I'm just curious to see how much time it will take while you continue moving the goalpost.