I hope you can stand another fishless cycling log...

[eco23]

Eric she is talking to you...I have no clue...

Haha..we use different scales and measurements at my job...but I'm pretty sure that's fairly low on both. If I remember my conversions right, KH is basically the buffering capability (alkalinity) of the water and GH is the actual hardness of the water.

* I found a conversion chart from the ppm we use..it is very soft water. You'll also need to watch very closely for pH crashes at the end of your cycle because of the low alkalinity. It might actually be a good idea to add a small bag of crushed coral into the filter to raise the alkalinity until the cycle is complete.

 

[librarygirl]

Well I receievd a reply from the company where I purchased the active sponge filter; doesn't sound very promising:

My initial email:
"Hi, I received a 3" active sponge cube filter on Saturday and installed it in my 12 gal tank to try to help cycle it (fishless, using pure ammo). I started noticing a drop in ammo and nitrates right away (thanks!) but no nitrites, but I'm optimistic the sponge will help my cycle. But a couple of days later I noticed a large amount of what looks like foam/suds on the top of my tank (pic attached). The suds are mostly on the right side where the water comes back out from the filter (I have the filter more on the left side where the filter intake tube is) and I also have an air stone, Could this be from the filter, proteins or something in it? I didn't wash anything in the tank, didn't put anything new in the tank, didn't even put my hands in the tank, so I don't think soap or anything got in. The only new thing I can think of is the filter. Before I panic and buy a new tank in case something did get in that I am unaware of, could this just be a symptom of the new filter (I'm running it with the filter that came with the tank as well). If you need further info please let me know. Thanks for your help."


And the reply:
"Hi, Sorry, but I've never seen that before and do not know why you have bubbles. There were no bubbles in the tank we removed it from and the fish in that tank looked fine."

 

[eco23]

Well I receievd a reply from the company where I purchased the active sponge filter; doesn't sound very promising:

My initial email:
"Hi, I received a 3" active sponge cube filter on Saturday and installed it in my 12 gal tank to try to help cycle it (fishless, using pure ammo). I started noticing a drop in ammo and nitrates right away (thanks!) but no nitrites, but I'm optimistic the sponge will help my cycle. But a couple of days later I noticed a large amount of what looks like foam/suds on the top of my tank (pic attached). The suds are mostly on the right side where the water comes back out from the filter (I have the filter more on the left side where the filter intake tube is) and I also have an air stone, Could this be from the filter, proteins or something in it? I didn't wash anything in the tank, didn't put anything new in the tank, didn't even put my hands in the tank, so I don't think soap or anything got in. The only new thing I can think of is the filter. Before I panic and buy a new tank in case something did get in that I am unaware of, could this just be a symptom of the new filter (I'm running it with the filter that came with the tank as well). If you need further info please let me know. Thanks for your help."


And the reply:
"Hi, Sorry, but I've never seen that before and do not know why you have bubbles. There were no bubbles in the tank we removed it from and the fish in that tank looked fine."

Have the bubbles subsided since you turned down the air pump? I wouldn't do anything rash...I still think it has something to do with the seeded filter, but hopefully it's just an enigma and not an actual concern. One last test worth doing is putting some of the tank water in a glass and see if it separates out (does soap separate from water? Probably I'd think). The BB can be sensitive little things, and as long as we see your cycle start moving in the right direction I think we'll be okay.

 

[librarygirl]

Haha..we use different scales and measurements at my job...but I'm pretty sure that's fairly low on both. If I remember my conversions right, KH is basically the buffering capability (alkalinity) of the water and GH is the actual hardness of the water.

* I found a conversion chart from the ppm we use..it is very soft water. You'll also need to watch very closely for pH crashes at the end of your cycle because of the low alkalinity. It might actually be a good idea to add a small bag of crushed coral into the filter to raise the alkalinity until the cycle is complete.

Great, another complication! lol Well I checked my records and the numbers I gave for tap water were correct: GH 3, KH2. My PH has been steady at about 7.5, except for one pwc which brought it down to about 6.8 temporarily but last night I tested and it seems to be up to about 7.8. Do I still need the coral? And where would I purchase this?

Also I tested my aquarium water for GH/KH as well (not sure whether this is needed or relevant and not sure whether this would be accurate while the tank is cycling, but I tested anyway) and GH is 5 and KH is 4. Again, not sure if that helps, but there it is. Thanks!

 

[librarygirl]

Have the bubbles subsided since you turned down the air pump? I wouldn't do anything rash...I still think it has something to do with the seeded filter, but hopefully it's just an enigma and not an actual concern. One last test worth doing is putting some of the tank water in a glass and see if it separates out (does soap separate from water? Probably I'd think). The BB can be sensitive little things, and as long as we see your cycle start moving in the right direction I think we'll be okay.

Yes they have subsided a lot, none of the foamy suds that I posted a pic of the other night. Still a small amount of bubbles on the surface.It looks likle the bubbles are forming when the water is poured back into the tank from the tank's filter then the bubbles are pushed to the side due to the current and then they become smaller and get whiter. But it isn't the whole top of the tank like it was the other night. When I get home tonight I'll post an updated pic.

I also tested levels again last night:
Ammo still at 2-3 ppm
Ph 7.6+++ (dark blue, off chart)
High range ph: about 7.8, a little hard to tell, depending on how I looked at the tube it was between 7.4 and 7.8
NitrItes: 0
NitrAtes: still 5

If after 20 hours of adding the sponge filter nitrates were showing and the ammo went down to 0.5 from about 2, shouldn't the ammo be continuing to drop and the nitrates rising? Why isn't this happening?

I also tried to smell the foam the other night in case it was detergent or something but it has no smell at all. I'll try the water in the glass; I scooped up some water from the surface and looked at it in a clear plastic cup but the foamy bubbles were already on top. I'll try to scoop up some of the water without bubbles and see if anything separates. Thanks for your continued help.

 

[eco23]

Great, another complication! lol Well I checked my records and the numbers I gave for tap water were correct: GH 3, KH2. My PH has been steady at about 7.5, except for one pwc which brought it down to about 6.8 temporarily but last night I tested and it seems to be up to about 7.8. Do I still need the coral? And where would I purchase this?

Also I tested my aquarium water for GH/KH as well (not sure whether this is needed or relevant and not sure whether this would be accurate while the tank is cycling, but I tested anyway) and GH is 5 and KH is 4. Again, not sure if that helps, but there it is. Thanks!

Here's the deal with coral...it will slightly raise and hold your pH steady. If you took a poll on the site and asked if you needed CC to cycle...95% of people will say no. However, since I've talked to so many people on the guide thread and through PM's I know it is fairly common to see pretty major pH crashes at the end of a cycle when people have low alkalinity to their water. Within the last week I can name three people off the top of my head that it happened to. If a pH crash is bad enough, it can revert your cycle back several days (seems to only affect the ammo>no2 bacteria). I'm actually considering contacting a mod/admin to see if it's possible to make an edit to the guide so I can include crushed coral as an optional item to help with fishless cycling. The 50% pwc mid cycle was included in the guide to help prevent pH swings...but if the water is low enough in buffering capacity it's not always enough.

If you did decide it's better safe than sorry, CC is sold at most lfs. It's most commonly used as substrate in saltwater tanks (which unfortunately comes in giant bags). I picked up a bag for around $9 at Petsmart. The best thing to do is to also get a mesh bag (also sold at lfs's), and stick a handful of CC into it and throw it in the filter or just hang it in the tank. This way when your cycle is over you can just pull the bag of coral out because it is not necessarily something you want to keep in your tank once you have fish.

Although it's not mandatory, it will absolutely prevent any pH crashes for people with soft / low alkalinity water. If you go to the last few pages of the guide, you'll see a pic a member posted that shows how he put the CC in his tank.

 

[eco23]

Yes they have subsided a lot, none of the foamy suds that I posted a pic of the other night. Still a small amount of bubbles on the surface.It looks likle the bubbles are forming when the water is poured back into the tank from the tank's filter then the bubbles are pushed to the side due to the current and then they become smaller and get whiter. But it isn't the whole top of the tank like it was the other night. When I get home tonight I'll post an updated pic.

I also tested levels again last night:
Ammo still at 2-3 ppm
Ph 7.6+++ (dark blue, off chart)
High range ph: about 7.8, a little hard to tell, depending on how I looked at the tube it was between 7.4 and 7.8
NitrItes: 0
NitrAtes: still 5

If after 20 hours of adding the sponge filter nitrates were showing and the ammo went down to 0.5 from about 2, shouldn't the ammo be continuing to drop and the nitrates rising? Why isn't this happening?

I also tried to smell the foam the other night in case it was detergent or something but it has no smell at all. I'll try the water in the glass; I scooped up some water from the surface and looked at it in a clear plastic cup but the foamy bubbles were already on top. I'll try to scoop up some of the water without bubbles and see if anything separates. Thanks for your continued help.

Couple things to try. (sorry if I didn't see that you'd done them before). Test all your parameters directly from the tap. Is that where the no3 is coming from? Also leave a glass of tap water sitting out for 24 hours and test the pH after it's been sitting out for that time. Municipalities add things to the water to buffer it, but they will gas out and show you the actual pH after that time. With the different pH levels you've been reading, that's a possibility.

 

[librarygirl]

Couple things to try. (sorry if I didn't see that you'd done them before). Test all your parameters directly from the tap. Is that where the no3 is coming from? Also leave a glass of tap water sitting out for 24 hours and test the pH after it's been sitting out for that time. Municipalities add things to the water to buffer it, but they will gas out and show you the actual pH after that time. With the different pH levels you've been reading, that's a possibility.

Thanks (again). The numbers above are aquarium water (no nitrates or nitrites in tap water). I'm just wondering my ammo isn't dropping and why nitrates aren't rising in the tank by now? I'll get the crushed coral this weekend and put it in with the filter.

I've tested my tap water (treated and untreated) at various intervals, but I had a hard time reading the ammo levels (the 0- and 0.25 readings are hard for me to distinguish) so I want to repeat those tests against distilled water; an odd reading I got was the untreated tap water's ammonia went up to 0.5 after a day (#4 below), so I'm not sure if that's an error or what. Here's what I have so far, before re-testing:

* Tap water (untreated):
1. directly from tap:
a. PH dark blue, off chart, 7.6++++
b. High range PH 8.4+
c. nitrates 0
d. nitrites 0
e. ammonia: looks 0, but want to double-check against distilled to be sure

2. after 1 hour:
a. PH dark blue, off chart, 7.6+++
b. High range PH: down to 7.4
c. nitrates 0
d. nitrites 0
e. ammonia: looks 0, but want to double-check against distilled

3. after 18 hours:
a. PH about 7.6, a light blue
b. high range ph: up again to 8.4+
c. nitrates 0
d. nitrites 0
e. ammonia: looks slightly greenish, about 0.25, need to retest against distilled

4. after 26 hours:
a. PH: 7.6
b. High PH: 7.4
c. nitrates 0
d. nitrites 0
e. ammonia 0.5 (?!?!?!?!)

* 1 gal tap water with 2 drops Prime
1. after 1 hour:
a. ph: dark blue, off chart, 7.6+++
b. high range ph: 8.2
c. nitrates 0
d. nitrites 0
e. ammonia 0 (want to double-check this against distilled)

2. after 19 hours:
a. pH: dark blue, off chart, 7.6+++
b. high ph: 7.4
c. nitrates 0
d. nitrites 0
e. ammonia 0 (want to recheck)

3. after 28 hours:
a. dark blue, off chart, 7.6+++
b. high ph 7.4
c. nitrates 0
d. nitrites 0
e. ammonia 0 (want to recheck)

 

[eco23]

Can you tell me again how fast ammo is dropping and when it first started happening? Also, did you say it looked like no2 had shown a hint of purple at some point?

I read back through the entire thread and it's definitely got me scratching my head in a few places. The first thing that caught my eye was the fish deaths all within a 24 hour period after you'd had them for a month. And the ammo was only at .25 when they died? These odd pH fluctuations and mysterious appearance of no3 also throw me for a loop...not even mentioning the foam on the top of the tank.

What water source are you on? Private well, community well, city / county water?

 

[koz]

API stated that the test tube should be held directly up against the card ( touching it). I don't trust api ammonia readings anyway so I test with a tetra kit on Ammonia

Today's results are (day 26)
Ammonia 0.25
Nitrite 0
Temp 24c
Ph 7.6

Seem to be getting an increase in ammonia to about 0.15 daily after water changes
Still using aquasafe to dechlorinate my water.

 

[librarygirl]

Can you tell me again how fast ammo is dropping and when it first started happening? Also, did you say it looked like no2 had shown a hint of purple at some point?

I read back through the entire thread and it's definitely got me scratching my head in a few places. The first thing that caught my eye was the fish deaths all within a 24 hour period after you'd had them for a month. And the ammo was only at .25 when they died? These odd pH fluctuations and mysterious appearance of no3 also throw me for a loop...not even mentioning the foam on the top of the tank.

What water source are you on? Private well, community well, city / county water?

Thanks Eco for hanging in there with me to try to help!

Ammo never dropped until I put the new active seeded sponge filter I bought online on Saturday; I tested on Sunday and ammo had dropped from about 2-3 ppm to 0.5. I then dosed it back up to 4+ but I think that was too high, so I did a pwc the other night (which helped with the suds/foam issue too) and the ammo is back down to 2-3 as of last night, but it hasn't dropped on its own since the day after I added the sponge filter.

I never had nitrites at all (it was never purple, just light blue, once or twice it was a shade darker blue after I added the sponge filter but as of last night it went back to light blue), so I've never seen nitrites, not even when the fish were in there.

NitrAtes just started showing up the day after I added the new sponge filter. They started at about 2.5 (it's tough trying to decipher the tube colors on this one too!) and now they seem to be more like around 5, but no significant increase.

As for the fish deaths, I still have no idea. The only thing I can relate it to is stress and gasses in the water. That night I thought ammo was at 0.25 (which now I'm questioning given how hard it is to read the colors on the kit) so I did a 70% pwc rather quickly, replacing the water into the tank very fast which caused bubbles/gasses to rise to the surface of the tank. And on top of the large pwc I also moved some plants and things around and in and out of the tank to swish in the old tank water, so maybe the stress and/or gasses killed them. That's the only thing I can think of.

I think I'm on city water. My state/city doesn't have their water reports online (figures) but I think I'm going to try to request it from them.

Maybe I'm just cursed and not meant to have fishies

 

[eco23]

Thanks Eco for hanging in there with me to try to help!

Ammo never dropped until I put the new active seeded sponge filter I bought online on Saturday; I tested on Sunday and ammo had dropped from about 2-3 ppm to 0.5. I then dosed it back up to 4+ but I think that was too high, so I did a pwc the other night (which helped with the suds/foam issue too) and the ammo is back down to 2-3 as of last night, but it hasn't dropped on its own since the day after I added the sponge filter.

I never had nitrites at all (it was never purple, just light blue, once or twice it was a shade darker blue after I added the sponge filter but as of last night it went back to light blue), so I've never seen nitrites, not even when the fish were in there.

NitrAtes just started showing up the day after I added the new sponge filter. They started at about 2.5 (it's tough trying to decipher the tube colors on this one too!) and now they seem to be more like around 5, but no significant increase.

As for the fish deaths, I still have no idea. The only thing I can relate it to is stress and gasses in the water. That night I thought ammo was at 0.25 (which now I'm questioning given how hard it is to read the colors on the kit) so I did a 70% pwc rather quickly, replacing the water into the tank very fast which caused bubbles/gasses to rise to the surface of the tank. And on top of the large pwc I also moved some plants and things around and in and out of the tank to swish in the old tank water, so maybe the stress and/or gasses killed them. That's the only thing I can think of.

I think I'm on city water. My state/city doesn't have their water reports online (figures) but I think I'm going to try to request it from them.

Maybe I'm just cursed and not meant to have fishies

Since you've seen some hint of movement in the last few days...I'd say to keep plowing ahead and see what happens. I kinda doubt the pwc would have done the fish in as long as you remembered your dechlorinator. The micro bubbles would really need to saturate the tank in order to have caused harm. You would have seen what looked like hundreds of thousands of tiny bubbles coating everything in the tank. I also think that leads more to swim bladder issues rather than sudden death (I could be wrong).

The thing that's confusing to me would also be the appearance of no3. NitrAtes are the byproduct of the no2 consuming bacteria, so without no2 in the tank I can't imagine how it would have been converted. I assume the bag water the sponges came in had some level of no3, but I wouldn't think it'd be enough to cause a reading through the entire tank...another mystery.

I've got to admit your tap water makes me a little nervous when you add all this up. If there's no ammonia level from the tap, this would show that the municipality uses chlorine instead of chloramines. Do you ever notice a strong bleach like smell in the tap water? I read you use Prime, but I don't know the maximum level of chlorine it can handle would be. Id probably recommend using the amount of Prime suggested for the entire volume of the tank, as opposed to just the water you are replacing.

I think we'll have to wait a few more days and see how things progress, and maybe bring up the discussion of your tap water again if odd things keep occurring. This one is kinda throwing me for a loop with a couple things, and in my head it keeps coming back to the tap water TBH. I'm very interested to see the conclusion to all of this.

 

[eco23]

Oh, I saw something about a blanket over the tank, is it still there? If so (this sounds silly) it may be preventing more of the beneficial bacteria from getting into the tank. Probably not an issue...but just a thought.

 

[Deckape]

Hey are you adding your water conditioner at the chloromine dose or the chlorine dose?

 

[librarygirl]

Hey are you adding your water conditioner at the chloromine dose or the chlorine dose?

Hi, sorry, not sure what you're asking? Prime says to add 2 drops for each gallon, so I usually add it to the water before adding to the tank (although from now on I think I'm going to add it to the tank for the dose of the whole tank and then add the water).

 

[librarygirl]

Oh, I saw something about a blanket over the tank, is it still there? If so (this sounds silly) it may be preventing more of the beneficial bacteria from getting into the tank. Probably not an issue...but just a thought.

Thanks! Well tonight I got home and checked the tank and still some bubbles and white foam on the edges of the water line, but not like the other night. I've also been hearing a fast "blub blub blub" sound but then tonight realized the air hose had come out of the tube of the sponge filter and the air hose was pumping air right into the water. Now I'm not sure if that would cause the ammo to stop dropping but I did notice it and fixed it. My best guess is that it's been like that for at least a couple of days if not more.

[edited to add]: I also fixed some of the decorations because up until now they were all just jumbled up in there, some just floating, particularly the plants (silk/plastic) and I thought maybe this was impeding water flow throughout the tank. So I rooted some of the plants down, etc. I then realized how large this 3" sponge filter is compared to the size of my tank and how much room it takes up; would it be as beneficial to cut it up and put the pieces in with my current filter?

To answer your question about the water: no, I never noticed a bleach smell to my tap water (I wouldn't have drank it otherwise lol). I do have a faucet filter attached to my kitchen faucet just b/c I don't trust tap water in general, but I never use the filtered water to fill the tank. My tank water smells like chemicals, but it could be the ammonia, although it did smell similarly when I had fish in there as well, just not as strong. At that time I was doing daily pwc and I thought it was the Prime causing the water to smell.

I had a blanket on the tank but I took it off a few days ago thinking it might not be letting air get into the tank (although the tank is covered anyway), so instead I taped black plastic bags around the glass and kept the top of the tank uncovered except for the tank cover.

Tonight's levels (before I noticed the sponge filter had come apart from the air hose):

Ph: dark blue, probably higher than 7.6
High ph: again hard to tell, looks like it has a bit of a pinkish orange hue to it so maybe more like 7.8 than 7.6
ammo: still at 2
nitrites: 0 (this one still baffles me)
nitrates: 5

Below are pics of the current state of the foam/bubbles in the tank. Went to PetCo at lunch today to see if they had crushed coral (nope) but I took a look at their fish and african dwarf frogs, I really really really hope I can have actual life in my tank soon, this is getting depressing lol I'm going to try the PetSmart near me on Saturday for the crushed coral.

 

[Deckape]

Hi, sorry, not sure what you're asking? Prime says to add 2 drops for each gallon, so I usually add it to the water before adding to the tank (although from now on I think I'm going to add it to the tank for the dose of the whole tank and then add the water).

You're good then. I forgot you're using Prime. I am just trying to figure out your issue. However when you're helping more than one person, the facts get discombobulated ( in my head anyway). Thanks

 

[librarygirl]

Well I got nervous so I drained 90% of the water out of the tank, took out the decorations and soaked/swished them in Prime treated tap water in case anything got on them that would cause the foam/suds issue. I rinsed the tank's filter in old aquarium water (ick, turned the water a light brownish color). As the water was being siphoned out of the tank it was fizzing/bubbling as it was going into the buckets, so something was/is wrong.

I then turned on the power strip and....nothing. No power. Nothing was turning on. The power strip had gotten a bit wet so I thought it was a safety mechanism, tried a different strip and still nothing. Plugged the strip into a different outlet and it was fine. So something blew out the sockets near the tank. I used the power strip to turn everything off at once in the beginning so maybe that did it? I have no idea. So temporarily I attached two strips together to reach a second plug but it can't stay like this and I have no idea how/if I can fix the plug closest to the tank.

I think I have a fish curse.

I just finished all this and dosed a bit of ammo and will test in a bit to make sure it isn't too high. I did save some tank water to do an API kit with to test the levels prior to the large pwc but haven't tested it yet, I need a break.

If I hadn't spend so much money and time in this I would just give up. Maybe I still should. I don't know.

 

[Deckape]

Don't quit.... did you check the circuit breaker? I recently got an Aqueon water changer and it makes pwcs a breeze. I did the bucket brigade too and it was not fun.

 

[xxwolfpackof1xx]

the petsmart near me has CC