Water changes solves almost everything

[dalto]

One thing painful about RODI water I use is I have to mix it ahead of time (remineralization, buffers, etc.). But it does force a certain discipline, gives time for temperature adjustment, etc.

I have started treating mine directly in the holding containers. Has made my routine pretty easy.

 

[lectraplayer]

Yeah, it always bothered me that the python method so many people use depends on the newly introduced water becoming chlorine free extremely quickly due to conditioner in the tank. Or worse if they add it afterwards. (Obviously not applicable to people on their own well, talking tap water). I know it's done very widely, it obviously is not deadly, I just wonder about it.

Hopefully they don't aim the new water near their filter intake.

One thing painful about RODI water I use is I have to mix it ahead of time (remineralization, buffers, etc.). But it does force a certain discipline, gives time for temperature adjustment, etc.



The constant-drip water change devices actually make a great deal of sense in this regard, it's continuous, and not an event.

That's why I stick with the bucket and groundwater drawn from my well.

 

[Andy Sager]

Wow, I seemed to be a few pages behind here. LOL
Just to be clear, I was not saying that water changes or weekly water changes were not necessary. Just the opposite. Water changes are essential to keeping fish healthy in a closed system such as an aquarium. What I was saying was that LARGE water changes pose a danger and could have real adverse effects on the fish ( see Caliban's article on TDS) and using the example of the OP as a "standard" was not a good idea. In his case, he happened to be dealing with a very hardy fish so of course his results looked good. But this method would not be suitable for all fish types, so "how would a new aquarist know what to do" was what I was trying to bring out.
In regards to wild vs tank raised fish, water chemistry may not be as large a factor for breeding as temperature change would be. I AM a professional fish breeder and have been for over 45 years. Water changes with lower temps were used frequently to bring certain wild fish to spawn. Today, I am breeding Angelfish again which was one I did for many years and these fish I am working with today are spawning in 90 degree water before their weekly water changes so a lot of the "tried and true" methodology when it comes to breeding fish has been tossed out the window when it comes to domesticated fish. Wild fish, I'm sure, still need wild conditions to entice spawning but not all the fish we have available are wild fish. But now there is a twist to domesticated fish's hatch percentage. Living in central FL, I have moderately soft water (5 drops on the API test kit for GH) but 8.4 PH. I was breeding fish I got from up North (from very acidic water) and I got them to spawn in my water but the hatch percentage was extremely poor. I then experimented with taking the freshly laid eggs out from their spawning water and put them in pure rainwater ( 0 GH and <6.0 PH ). The hatch percentage went up to about 90%-95%. This result was qualified by putting the pair's next spawn in their regular water with the same temp as the rain water which yielded a very low hatch percentage. So the discussion on water chemistry for spawning purposes is valid but again, not for all fish types.
Face it, there just isn't a "one size fits all" method for fish keeping or breeding and that's the point I was trying to make. It's all situational and I thought it important to bring that to light so that a newbie wouldn't have a catastrophy after a water change. Caliban's article on TDS really helps to explain it.

Hope this helps

 

[lectraplayer]

So far I'm reading that two or three smaller water changes during the week may be better than one big water change a week.

 

[Brookster123]

This thread has now matured.. it all boils down to the water you are dealing with. For instance. . My tap comes out with a ph of 8.6 or something crazy like that, after it sits in my water barrel with a powerful air pump for 2 days it's about 7.4, i could in theory do a 90% wc without swinging the parameters, nitrates being below 15 of course.. if I did that same huge water change right from the tap it would probably cause much more harm than good. Wc's need to be tailored to your specific situation. There are far to many variables involved, having said all that.. ro, aged watet, distilled water, spring water, and prime should make it possible for anyone to do a weekly water change of 30% or more..

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[Masha]

Brookster, why does aerating the water make the ph drop? Is it just because of chlorine outgassing, or is there something else going on?

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[Brookster123]

Brookster, why does aerating the water make the ph drop? Is it just because of chlorine outgassing, or is there something else going on?

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Think that's all it is?? Andy should be able to clarify..

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[lectraplayer]

CO2 gassing off.

 

[Rivers2k]

I know there is not a one example fits all but this is a getting started thread . I am well aware different fish need different care but honestly how many people are starting the hobby with wild caught rams or fugu puffers. We are talking about people with guppies, gouramies, platties, mollies, gold fish, cichlids and such.

I left this forum a while ago cause everything you say gets torn apart by the exceptions and not the general rule. Everything has an exception I know that. That is why the title says MOST problems. After giving a few month break I came back and look what we have again.

Honestly answer me this is a 50% water change not good for commonly kept fish that the beginner is keeping. Wouldnt a 50% weekly water change solve allot of the issues we see with algea and bloating and fungas and blotches. The answer is yes.

I don't care and I am not addressing the best steps to breed wild caught bettas that is not the intent of this thread. If you want to discuss that start another thread am very knowledgeable in breeding and keeping rarer fish. This thread is to help new people having obvious problems with there fish and I do believe water changes will solve MOST problems.

 

[Rivers2k]

. What I was saying was that LARGE water changes pose a danger and could have real adverse effects on the fish ( see Caliban's article on TDS) and using the example of the OP as a "standard" was not a good idea. In his case, he happened to be dealing with a very hardy fish so of course his results looked good. But this method would not be suitable for all fish types, so "how would a new aquarist know what to do" was what I was trying to bring out.

WHY? dont give me off the wall examples of rare fish or people with crazy tap water. Why is doing 50% WC weekly with commonly kept fish harmful. An BTW I don't only do this with hardier cichlids I do this with all FW fish I keep. The fact is it is not harmful but beneficial. Unless people are doing WC incorrectly and that is a different topic.

 

[PB_Smith]

WHY? dont give me off the wall examples of rare fish or people with crazy tap water. Why is doing 50% WC weekly with commonly kept fish harmful. An BTW I don't only do this with hardier cichlids I do this with all FW fish I keep. The fact is it is not harmful but beneficial. Unless people are doing WC incorrectly and that is a different topic.

You have already been given numerous examples and rational reasons "why" as well as the science to support the position.
Have you read the thread Caliban started that I linked to?
If not than you should hold the above remarks to Andy until after you have.

What I can't fathom with this forum is why so many folks will discount advice given by Andy, myself and others who have been doing this many, many, many decades in many different scenarios with many different fish.
Some of you guys tend to forget that it was us old farts that helped shape what the industry/hobby is today and we have the benefit of many years of trial and error long before their was the internet, google or advice forums.
We learned by doing, often with one eye closed and one hand tied behind our backs, feeling our way along based on what we knew about the science.

Unfortunately the loudest voices now seem to be the industry elements who's main driving force is $$$$$$$$$, not good fish keeping practices or the well being of the animals being kept. The advice given by old-timers in the know will often conflict with "industry" advice because us old-timers are not trying to make a dollar off you!
I'll never tell you that you have to replace ceramic media, yet Fluvals instructions say replace it every few months, for just one example.
It pays to be critically discerning when reading stuff and always ask yourself "what is the authors motive".

You are also failing to recognize that Andy is giving the best "getting started" advice, much, much more so than the tired old "change half the water every week and everything will be honky-dory" line of reasoning.

Again, addressing the majority of people with commonly available fish;
if you need to change 50% of your water weekly to maintain good quality, something is fundamentally wrong with your set-up, plain and simple, no ifs, ands or buts.

 

[BBradbury]

Large, Frequent Water Changes

Whoa!

I love this water change subject. I've been in the "water keeping" hobby for a decade or so and have found that nothing, I mean nothing I've ever done for my tanks matches the benefit of a lot of pure, treated tap water flushed through the tanks every week.

I keep quite a few different fish and a lot of them in my planted tanks. I've found that large, very frequent water changes has eliminated some things I used to do for my tanks. Some examples are water testing, don't need to. The water is always pure. No need for over filtration. The filters are simply filtering water that's already pure and a steady water chemistry. Fish color (general health) and activity are so much better. Plants have a steady source of healthy minerals that over filtration removes. No chance for nitrogen to build up and stress the fish from the accumulation of fish and plant wastes, the dissolved waste is removed well before it can cause water chemistry problems.

99.9 percent of the tank problems water keepers have are water related. Keep the water pure all the time and you'll have no problems. I've yet to have a disease in any of my tanks in 10 years. That's not luck. That's maintaining pure water conditions.

B

 

[Delapool]

Brookster, why does aerating the water make the ph drop? Is it just because of chlorine outgassing, or is there something else going on?

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Increasing co2 into the water with aeration??

 

[Masha]

Increasing co2 into the water with aeration??

OK I see that CO2 is acidic, so that makes sense. But why would aeration add CO2? Am I being dim?

I thought that gass exchange created by the turbulence of an airstone would cause the opposite - add oxygen and drive off CO2? I must be wrong

 

[Delapool]

OK I see that CO2 is acidic, so that makes sense. But why would aeration add CO2? Am I being dim?



I thought that gass exchange created by the turbulence of an airstone would cause the opposite - add oxygen and drive off CO2? I must be wrong

Stuffed if I know - I know I have read it but can't find it. So could be way off. It's too late for me - off to bed

 

[Masha]

Stuffed if I know - I know I have read it but can't find it. So could be way off. It's too late for me - off to bed

Ha ha! That made me chuckle. I'll start a new thread. A bit off topic here anyway.

 

[lectraplayer]

Stuffed if I know - I know I have read it but can't find it. So could be way off. It's too late for me - off to bed

Depends on your environment. It will put O2 and CO2 in the water in equilibrium with the surrounding air. If you have one of these new "tight" houses, you may have more CO2 because you're not leaking it outside. Good question since we're on keeping water though.

 

[dalto]

I know there is not a one example fits all but this is a getting started thread . I am well aware different fish need different care but honestly how many people are starting the hobby with wild caught rams or fugu puffers. We are talking about people with guppies, gouramies, platties, mollies, gold fish, cichlids and such.

I left this forum a while ago cause everything you say gets torn apart by the exceptions and not the general rule. Everything has an exception I know that. That is why the title says MOST problems. After giving a few month break I came back and look what we have again.

Honestly answer me this is a 50% water change not good for commonly kept fish that the beginner is keeping. Wouldnt a 50% weekly water change solve allot of the issues we see with algea and bloating and fungas and blotches. The answer is yes.

I can see both sides of this argument. One the one hand, there is no one size fits all example. Different fish and different situations require different solutions. On the other hand, for most situations, 50% weekly water changes is a good suggestion.

WHY? dont give me off the wall examples of rare fish or people with crazy tap water. Why is doing 50% WC weekly with commonly kept fish harmful. An BTW I don't only do this with hardier cichlids I do this with all FW fish I keep. The fact is it is not harmful but beneficial. Unless people are doing WC incorrectly and that is a different topic.

IMO, many WC fish benefit more from large water changes than CB fish.

You have already been given numerous examples and rational reasons "why" as well as the science to support the position.
Have you read the thread Caliban started that I linked to?

I can't speak for rivers2k but I read the article. If you are doing weekly 50% water changes with the same water than the TDS of the incoming water should not not be so different from the tap that it causes the issues discussed in that thread.

What I can't fathom with this forum is why so many folks will discount advice given by Andy, myself and others who have been doing this many, many, many decades in many different scenarios with many different fish.
Some of you guys tend to forget that it was us old farts that helped shape what the industry/hobby is today and we have the benefit of many years of trial and error long before their was the internet, google or advice forums.
We learned by doing, often with one eye closed and one hand tied behind our backs, feeling our way along based on what we knew about the science.

What? If everyone just did what the person before them did the hobby would never advance forward. Certainly the advice of experienced aquarists should be considered but it can't be the solution in and of itself. For that matter, the "experienced" fish keepers here don't even really agree on everything.

Unfortunately the loudest voices now seem to be the industry elements who's main driving force is $$$$$$$$$, not good fish keeping practices or the well being of the animals being kept. The advice given by old-timers in the know will often conflict with "industry" advice because us old-timers are not trying to make a dollar off you!

We are talking about water changes here. How does the industry profit off of additional water changes?

You are also failing to recognize that Andy is giving the best "getting started" advice, much, much more so than the tired old "change half the water every week and everything will be honky-dory" line of reasoning.

Andy's advice as I read it was essentially know your fish and their needs do select appropriate water change schedule for each situation. Obviously, I am oversimplifying what he said far more eloquently in many more words. The problem is that you need some experience and education to do this properly to begin with. This is why weekly 50% changes provides a good guideline. No, it isn't an absolute solution and in many cases is more than you need but in most cases is also not bad advice.

Again, addressing the majority of people with commonly available fish;
if you need to change 50% of your water weekly to maintain good quality, something is fundamentally wrong with your set-up, plain and simple, no ifs, ands or buts.

I couldn't disagree with this more. The reality is that many aquarium stocking levels are higher than they used to be. This is especially true with the explosion of African cichlid keepers over the last 10 years. The reality is there is really nothing wrong with this practice if done responsibly. As long as you are keeping up with water changes and meeting the needs of your fish there is no problem with overstocking.

 

[lectraplayer]

I know there is not a one example fits all but this is a getting started thread . I am well aware different fish need different care but honestly how many people are starting the hobby with wild caught rams or fugu puffers. We are talking about people with guppies, gouramies, platties, mollies, gold fish, cichlids and such.

I left this forum a while ago cause everything you say gets torn apart by the exceptions and not the general rule. Everything has an exception I know that. That is why the title says MOST problems. After giving a few month break I came back and look what we have again.

Honestly answer me this is a 50% water change not good for commonly kept fish that the beginner is keeping. Wouldnt a 50% weekly water change solve allot of the issues we see with algea and bloating and fungas and blotches. The answer is yes.

I don't care and I am not addressing the best steps to breed wild caught bettas that is not the intent of this thread. If you want to discuss that start another thread am very knowledgeable in breeding and keeping rarer fish. This thread is to help new people having obvious problems with there fish and I do believe water changes will solve MOST problems.

I figured this was a "getting started" thread, and my related advice is to change 25% of your water a week and test just before you change it. Adjust as needed. I also say it's preferrable to change water more often over more at a time. It's the changing condtions that stresses fish, but you have to get the pollutants out. ...and if there's a problem, 25% daily.

 

[Linwood]

Again, addressing the majority of people with commonly available fish;
if you need to change 50% of your water weekly to maintain good quality, something is fundamentally wrong with your set-up, plain and simple, no ifs, ands or buts.

I couldn't disagree with this more. The reality is that many aquarium stocking levels are higher than they used to be. This is especially true with the explosion of African cichlid keepers over the last 10 years. The reality is there is really nothing wrong with this practice if done responsibly. As long as you are keeping up with water changes and meeting the needs of your fish there is no problem with overstocking.

As an observer, I do not find these two statements in conflict.

I think "overstocked" is by definition "doing something wrong" (recognizing the 'wrong' is a loaded word). You are mitigating the "over" by doing more water changes.

That seems a fair decision. It is like being "wrong" to cycle with fish in, but people mitigate that by doing more testing and water changes to keep the in-cycle peaks from being too dangerous.

"right" and "wrong" here are the loaded words people are using that trigger the emotional response. I doubt that "natural" vs "unnatural" would be less emotional, but perhaps more accurate, as few natural environments are "overstocked". Take those out though, and there's nothing wrong in my mind with saying:

- Stock lightly and you need less water changes

- Stock heavily and you need more water changes, all things being equal

It's also probably worth noting that if people follow their LFS advice (back to the aforementioned profit motive) then they will stock heavily. Which leads back to the circle of more bad things can happen when overstocked, and heavy water changes do indeed then become the norm.