Wigglers 2: Birth of a hatchery & everything Angels

[Andy Sager]

You have the most fascinating workarounds. I hope to see pics one day


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When you are on a budget ( both financial and time), fish breeding makes you become inventive, frugal, creative and efficient. This new rack is going to be just a simple thing but in many ways, hopefully, a very productive means of breeding the Guppies in a clean system.

I'm taking pics of the build in progress and will post them all at one time when it's completed.

 

[skylane]

Looking forward to seeing it come together, great plan!!!

Clem

 

[Andy Sager]

I need to start this post with a disclaimer: I am not in any way promoting poor maintenance practices or improper care of your fish however, sometimes, it all works out.

I have a few minutes while a tank is filling so I thought I would post what I found today while cleaning tanks. On my last trip South, I brought back some male Albino Cories and some larger Red Guppies and due to lack of space, I had to put the 2 together. The other day I noticed one of the females was very pregnant so since I had no tank to put her in, I just put in a number of floating plants in hopes that maybe something would make it. I haven't seen anything in the tank and the female definitely gave birth so I assumed the cories must have gotten the fry. Instead of draining the water I was changing directly into my big bucket, I used a 5 gal pail and what do I find? A single surviving Guppy fry. So it was immediately removed and placed with the other Guppy fry from the Green Cobras.

When I went to clean out the cory breeding tank ( after the spawn had all died) I had to find the pleco I left in the tank and in the process of finding him, I also found 3 albino cory fry. So yes, I lost a lot more than I saved but it gives me proof that my male is fertile and if there are issues in the future, it's not the fish. There is something to be said about keeping a live plant in a breeding tank as I have not fed anything into that tank since I discovered the dead eggs so the fry have been surviving on what they could find from and on the plant. They are now in a separate tank with the Guppy fry so they will be getting fed on a regular basis.

So as I said, SOMETIMES things work out.

 

[sinibotia]

Hey Andy, my genetics reading has come to fruition. Ann and I have a new goal to produce a purebreeding pair of these guys:

Now, I'm still figuring out if I need pearlscale or not. If that's the case I'll have to revise my calculations. But my understanding is that I can produce non-pearlscales of these.

The plan is to cross the best of the redhed koi offspring that show the redhead gene with pure albino offspring from the panda kois. That should produce heterozygous albino koi angelfish. Then cross that back with pure albinos again to produce albino koi. The redhead marble gene is dominant to the pure gold gene, and homozygous recessive for albino overrides basically everything, so I just need to produce angelfish with Gm/g a/a for that phenotype. And then I just have to get two Gm/Gm a/a to get a purebreeding pair.

Ok, now tell me how wrong I did on all of that

 

[Andy Sager]

You may have to go a few generations further unless you know what the genetics were that produced the parents. I assume you did not get 100% all that looked like the fish in the pic so you need to breed that out of the fish. That can take a couple generations alone. Then, you don't know if there is something within the fish that when crossed with a certain other cross, produces either a totally different looking fish OR a fish that doesn't live very long or well. But you are on the right course however, the best way to lock in a gene or "type" starts with breeding parent to child then breeding siblings of each then breeding the "cousins" that both show what you are looking for. So you are looking at about a 5-10 year activity to produce a "pure" fish.

 

[sinibotia]

You may have to go a few generations further unless you know what the genetics were that produced the parents. I assume you did not get 100% all that looked like the fish in the pic so you need to breed that out of the fish. That can take a couple generations alone. Then, you don't know if there is something within the fish that when crossed with a certain other cross, produces either a totally different looking fish OR a fish that doesn't live very long or well. But you are on the right course however, the best way to lock in a gene or "type" starts with breeding parent to child then breeding siblings of each then breeding the "cousins" that both show what you are looking for. So you are looking at about a 5-10 year activity to produce a "pure" fish.

I'm a very goal oriented person, so 5-10 years doesn't scare me outta this I might need a few more tanks though But it sounds like I have the basic genetics down, and the fish with the traits I need, so I just gotta keep breeding.

I've really enjoyed penning all this down, actually. And I've really enjoyed the process of breeding as well. Maybe I'm cut out to be a fish breeder after all

 

[Andy Sager]

I'm a very goal oriented person, so 5-10 years doesn't scare me outta this I might need a few more tanks though But it sounds like I have the basic genetics down, and the fish with the traits I need, so I just gotta keep breeding.

I've really enjoyed penning all this down, actually. And I've really enjoyed the process of breeding as well. Maybe I'm cut out to be a fish breeder after all

Doesn't scare you? Good, 'cause that's what it takes. Back before much was known about genetics, people created purebred strains of fish just by "trial and error" and realistically, even with all this knowledge and genetic insights we have today, I don't believe there still is anything that can determine before hand that a crossing will produce sterile young. So that's an 8-12 month experiment that may wind up yielding nothing. That's all part of the game. The "easy" part is figuring what you want. The hard part is figuring out how to get it and getting it to work.

Yes, you will need a few more tanks for sure. Start saving your pennies because you won't buy what you need by selling the fish first. Nothing is all that difficult in breeding fish.....just takes time and money and a little bit of knowledge.

 

[sinibotia]

I have time and knowledge! Money.... well, I'll figure that out as I go

 

[ghyti]

The plan is to cross the best of the redhed koi offspring that show the redhead gene with pure albino offspring from the panda kois. That should produce heterozygous albino koi angelfish. Then cross that back with pure albinos again to produce albino koi. The redhead marble gene is dominant to the pure gold gene, and homozygous recessive for albino overrides basically everything, so I just need to produce angelfish with Gm/g a/a for that phenotype. And then I just have to get two Gm/Gm a/a to get a purebreeding pair.

I am far from an expert and don't take my opinion as truth, but that doesn't look like a KOI to me. It looks like a Sunset (g/g - S/S). If that is true, it is already a "true breeding" fish. Gold is recessive so double golds will breed true. You talk about Goldmarble (Gm) but I don't see any Goldmarble in that fish.
Again just my opinion.

 

[Andy Sager]

I am far from an expert and don't take my opinion as truth, but that doesn't look like a KOI to me. It looks like a Sunset (g/g - S/S). If that is true, it is already a "true breeding" fish. Gold is recessive so double golds will breed true. You talk about Goldmarble (Gm) but I don't see any Goldmarble in that fish.
Again just my opinion.

Not that I'm an expert in any way shape or form on the KOI strain myself but I can see that POSSIBLY, the areas on the fish that are yellow opposed to red could be the "marble" part that is being influenced by the Albinoism of the fish. If that is true , there IS little marbling in the fish but enough to qualify as a third color.
(Truthfully, the whole KOI strain has been a little baffling to me.)

 

[Andy Sager]

Picked up some shelving and the PVC parts to finish the Guppy rack today while also getting the six 5 gal bins for them and my ammonia bags ( finally) Tomorrow starts hopefully the rest of the support structures.

2 of the 3 Angel spawns I had left with the parents were both eaten last night and the one surviving has about a 25% hatch. Still new(ish) parents so something is better than nothing. I took 2 spawns and moved them both into a 2.5 as a fertility test. These were spawned the day before water changes were done and as of now, there are a lot of dead eggs. Considering I haven't had any live fry from either pair, I wanted this to be more a fertility test than anything else. I'll seriously consider selling off the fish if they continue to not have successful spawns. Both of these pairs however are F1s so that too may have something to do with the whole "lack of success" spawns. Time will tell. I just need 1 live wiggler to keep them as breeders.

I had a set up the cory breeding tank yesterday & took an ammonia reading tonight. Almost 0. Checked the air ammonia tonight, practically nothing. Go figure, right? Now that I have the bags.....

 

[skylane]

Wow Andy, I thought I had problems? 0 ammonia readings in air and water test, I'm baffled dude!
Nice to hear you got some stuff for the guppy breeding rack[emoji106]
I've got my breeding tanks under my 90g, and I got a spawn from my black veil pair, I put them in their tanks and not even 30 mins breeding tubes exposed and the next morning, I got eggs on a plant.
I wasn't expecting it to go so fast, but it looks OK as the female guards the spot and nothing was eaten, so they'll have to parent raise till I get more set up. Not doing too much these days due to a medical issue I'm dealing with since the holidays. I'm still following this thread as it concerns Angels and breeding and of course people like you!!!
It's been about a full day since the spawn and I hope I get some wigglers, to prove this pair of blacks, a good pair IMO and I'm letting them do their stuff as I observe their behaviors in a smaller tank more than the big one. My other pair is doing nothing but hiding out but not fighting for the moment or lip locking. I think those other two might come around soon too!
It's been awhile, as things for me are moving slowly as I tend to my fish, but I love the breeding side of the hobby, its neat to be a part of !!![emoji38]


Clem

 

[Andy Sager]

Sorry to hear of your medical issues Clem and I hope all gets better soon.

Yeah, I've been trying to air out the building as much as possible this past week when the weather was up in the mid to upper 70s so I'm sure that had a lot to do with the ammonia reading in the air and subsequently the water. Keep in mind that I really haven't had any real air circulation from outside since last June and this whole thing started in early July so there must be a correlation. But I am armed now so it shouldn't be an issue any more....hopefully

I understand the desire to let the parents have the first batch of eggs but I try to let that one be the fertility test one as you only need 1 egg to hatch to prove fertility. The other part is that new breeders cleaning off the site of dead eggs can get a taste for eggs and become eaters rather than parents. If you do the fertility test and you get 1 egg to hatch, then you know the pair is worth continuing with for now. If you get nothing and nothing from the next few spawns, you could be dealing with a "dud" pair and splitting them up with other fish might be a better option. The longer you wait to do this, the longer it will take for you to get going. The sooner you get going, then you aren't spending time, energy and money on a pair that will not produce.

Just a little FYI, I had hatchers from the Gold pair this morning and hopefully some Marbles this afternoon. So the F1 Golds are a keeper and the verdict is still out on the Marbles.

Lastly, I saw my cory fry last night but can't seem to find them this morning when I moved that tank of fry ( Guppy, Cory and Pleco) into their new tank. I'm hoping I didn't lose them but even if I did, I still know that the parents are fertile and I have the process down. I'll be setting up a trio next time in the breeder tank so hopefully, I will get some good results this next time.

EDIT: Found em ( or at least 2 of them. ) They must have been hiding in the sponge filter base because I'm sure they weren't on the tank bottom before.

And a Marble egg hatched so now I know it's not the fish

 

[Tropical Aquarist]

Hey Andy, just saw this thread, and started at page 1.... Got till page 5, now I'm wondering what happened?(it'll take me a year to read it all!)

Are you only doing Angels? Do you have a website? Is this your full time job?

 

[Andy Sager]

Hey Andy, just saw this thread, and started at page 1.... Got till page 5, now I'm wondering what happened?(it'll take me a year to read it all!)

Are you only doing Angels? Do you have a website? Is this your full time job?

Sorry, for the "Cliff notes", I charge extra for them. But seriously, a lot has happened so reading the whole thing can definitely help prevent yourself from doing some things you shouldn't so when you have the time, read through it.

As for your last 3 questions...No, No, and No.
I've also branched out into breeding Albino bristlenose Plecos, Albino Cories, trying Sterbai Cories, will be doing Penguin and Black Phantom Tetras come spring and now doing 4 strains of Guppies in hopes of making a few more strains. ( If you are near central FL and looking for work, I need an assistant. )

 

[skylane]

Good news in the F1 golds, and I hope the Marbles turn out as well.
Thanks for the well wishes, and I will be back in good form soon, waiting for a medical appointment date from specialist.
Just in case I missed something in recent posts, did you find the actual source of the ammonia???
I did remember the AC problem was solved and I was just asking myself did we find the source
Of the ammonia problem, I understand you aired out the building, but how did it accumulate?[emoji50]

Clem

 

[skylane]

Hey Andy, just saw this thread, and started at page 1.... Got till page 5, now I'm wondering what happened?(it'll take me a year to read it all!)

Are you only doing Angels? Do you have a website? Is this your full time job?

This the one thread that is a must read, and Andy has helped many people here including me!!!

He is an expert in his field and shared his time and knowledge with us. You can't find this anywhere, enjoy the read!!![emoji38]

Clem

 

[Tropical Aquarist]

Sorry, for the "Cliff notes", I charge extra for them. But seriously, a lot has happened so reading the whole thing can definitely help prevent yourself from doing some things you shouldn't so when you have the time, read through it.



As for your last 3 questions...No, No, and No.

I've also branched out into breeding Albino bristlenose Plecos, Albino Cories, trying Sterbai Cories, will be doing Penguin and Black Phantom Tetras come spring and now doing 4 strains of Guppies in hopes of making a few more strains. ( If you are near central FL and looking for work, I need an assistant. )

Lol 77 pages with 20 posts per page DOES take a looooooong time!

I'm actually near Florida but not in Florida (Georgia), however I would LOVE to live in FL and work in your fish room

Black phantom tetras are my favorite species of tetra, what's your plan on feeding?

Thinking of breeding Von rio tetras this year....

 

[Andy Sager]

Good news in the F1 golds, and I hope the Marbles turn out as well.
Thanks for the well wishes, and I will be back in good form soon, waiting for a medical appointment date from specialist.
Just in case I missed something in recent posts, did you find the actual source of the ammonia???
I did remember the AC problem was solved and I was just asking myself did we find the source
Of the ammonia problem, I understand you aired out the building, but how did it accumulate?[emoji50]

Clem

No, I haven't yet figured out the source. The problem is I have no place right now to move everything out of the building to so as long as the level stays low, and I use the ammonia remover for the air, I should be able to get back to running okay for now. Once a get a few things reorganized, I will start removing things from the building to see what happens. So far, the accumulation seems to come slowly so whatever it is in here doing it, it's not severely potent.

As for the 2 spawns, I'd say I got about a 10%-15% hatchout from the Marbles and maybe 20-25% from the Golds. I'm not concerned about this rate as they are both fairly new breeders. Ironically, the siblings to both these pairs had about a 90%-95% hatchout on their very first spawn. So go figure. Now tho, I know what was killing the other fry so hopefully these spawns swim and I can claim VICTORY!!!

 

[skylane]

No, I haven't yet figured out the source. The problem is I have no place right now to move everything out of the building to so as long as the level stays low, and I use the ammonia remover for the air, I should be able to get back to running okay for now. Once a get a few things reorganized, I will start removing things from the building to see what happens. So far, the accumulation seems to come slowly so whatever it is in here doing it, it's not severely potent.

As for the 2 spawns, I'd say I got about a 10%-15% hatchout from the Marbles and maybe 20-25% from the Golds. I'm not concerned about this rate as they are both fairly new breeders. Ironically, the siblings to both these pairs had about a 90%-95% hatchout on their very first spawn. So go figure. Now tho, I know what was killing the other fry so hopefully these spawns swim and I can claim VICTORY!!!

They shall swim for ya sir [emoji38]
I wish I studied the chemistry books more cause I had some thoughts in my head about the ammonia problem, but just can't explain it properly? So, I will just like to ask a question, what would or how ammonia would form, and what conditions , since it is a bacteria??? If that's correct?
When ammonia rises does it dissipate naturally or does it change form , liquid,vapor to gas, or solid states.
My thoughts are that somehow, due to building design, air flow, and accumulation, and constant water source, from the Aquariums and airration of multi tanks via bubblers, can the ammonia be vaporizing in the air from the tanks and falling back down onto the tanks, but I think unlikely if you change water frequently :/ like I'm sure the way you do!
And I also thought, man when I use Prime to dechlorinates the water it has a bad odour from the chemical smell in it. I just thought that the senses we already have should give us some better clues , if its chemical use in more confined space?
My last thought would be water drainage, plumbing, or and area where ammonia can be concentrated on or in?
Seems like the source is produced inside and tends to harbour around as we know already. In an enclosure ventilation is key IMO:/...and moisture. If you have access to a dehumidifier unit, you can test the water coming from the over flow and see???[emoji12]

Sorry if I was babbling on about nothing, and if it helps in any way, I mean you Andy, it would give me great pleasure to ever help you out sir.

As for my black Angel spwan I think it was a bust, they could be egg eaters as I noticed the female as she pooped , it looked white in color, I think that's what happened. Next time its artificially hatching for sure, can't wait to try it. I'm just getting a feel for this pair and you've been bang in Andy, thanks!!!

Clem