Wigglers 2: Birth of a hatchery & everything Angels

[Andy Sager]

What level nitrate do you consider high for the eggs?

That's a great question and today, you win the prize because I really don't know. That's right, I don't have all the answers ( just most of them. )
In my case, with Angels and other fish I artificially hatch, there is no nitrates in the water until after the eggs hatch because I start with clean fresh water and use just an airstone. Since no ammonia is being produced in this process, there is no nitrate. In my current situation, having the sponge filters in the tank prior to the eggs hatching helps with the ammonia but it produces nitrates and in those spawns where I did that, I lost them before the eggs hatched and I'm not sure what the level was in those tanks because I never tested for that. ( MY bad and I should know better.) With the cory eggs, the nitrate level was 80+ ppm when I tested this morning so since that is bad for fish, it may be worse for eggs. I just don't know. I did do a 50% water change and will do water changes daily until the eggs hatch or die to reduce the nitrate level. However, since it wasn't bad enough to make the breeders not spawn, it might be okay. Today, I see a number of eggs that look like they have a small white ball inside of them and some look clear. When I saw this the last spawn ( same male, different female) I thought these were going to be the dead eggs and they wound up hatching on me so I'm just sitting tight and waiting to see what happens this time. I do have both types of eggs on the plant I moved to the front of the tank so I can monitor what's happening.

With the plecos, it's much easier to tell as the eggs are a little larger and so are the embryos. I candle a Pleco egg and I can see the yolk sac clearly as well as the red veins pumping blood. Wasn't able to see that even with the last successful albino cory spawn.

Hope that answers your question.

 

[Andy Sager]

I can not stress enough the value of a good magnifying glass for a breeder. The stronger the better.
24 hours in and I'm noticing that the cory eggs are still looking good. What puzzles me ( and it's my fault for not writing this down the last time ) is that I have eggs that clearly have a white area inside the eggs and I have some eggs that are totally clear so I don't know which is right. In previous spawns, the eggs were dead and fungused by 24-36 hours in. With these ones with white, the white area is clearly inside the egg near the center and appears to not be decaying inside the shell. Maybe, since the air quality is okay still (?), the dead eggs just haven't rotted yet? I don't believe these cories throw regular fry, just albinos, so there shouldn't be 2 types of embryos. I'm not using any antifungals this time so hopefully it all works out. Needless to say, I'll be making notes for sure on this one if they hatch.

It turns out the AC guy was right. After airing the place out yesterday, I took a reading directly from the ac unit while in heat mode and the test came out 0 so it's not the ac unit that is causing the problem. The reading before was the concentrated bad air being recirculated via the unit. So the search goes on for the source.

My Guppy selection now includes Green Cobras, Blond Cobras , Blue pastels and the F1 generation of my old female and the 3/4 black male has yielded some very interesting patterns on the males. I have some that have just black tails, some are 1/2 black, 2 are developing red tails, and some with mixed colors in the tail. So I will have a nice assortment to work with once they are old enough to breed. Interestingly, the 1/2 black male parents have a pink(ish) stripe at the shoulders and in the F1s, that stripe is a nice shade of Blue. Not sure where that blue came from but I'll take it. I like it better than the pink anyways.

I do have 2 spawns of Angels that I am letting the parents have at. If they live to hatch, I'll pull them then to see if I can get them to swim. Now that I do have some guaranteed clean water to use, I'll move them to the house just to see if they get to the next phase. With the colder weather the next few days, I won't be airing out the building so wee'll see if the air quality decreases in this time.

 

[coralbandit]

I ask on the nitrate levels as I now have consolidated my GBR into group breeding tanks(no individual pairs) and pull the eggs when needed.
Obviously then these eggs are going to be exposed to nitrates before I pull them.
Possibly for their whole hatching cycle as I keep them in the water from the tank they are spawned in.
I kind of thought that was important due to sensitivity of eggs , but now really think you see the whole other side and recognize something that may be an issue I hadn't thought of?
I mean I have multiple pairs and fluctuating water quality daily so probably too many variables for me to really track but I am really interested in what you find and document...
Me thinks maybe I need to find 2 pair in my stock with similar production rates and then separate them into their own tanks again for a parameter orientated experiment...

 

[Andy Sager]

I ask on the nitrate levels as I now have consolidated my GBR into group breeding tanks(no individual pairs) and pull the eggs when needed.
Obviously then these eggs are going to be exposed to nitrates before I pull them.
Possibly for their whole hatching cycle as I keep them in the water from the tank they are spawned in.
I kind of thought that was important due to sensitivity of eggs , but now really think you see the whole other side and recognize something that may be an issue I hadn't thought of?
I mean I have multiple pairs and fluctuating water quality daily so probably too many variables for me to really track but I am really interested in what you find and document...
Me thinks maybe I need to find 2 pair in my stock with similar production rates and then separate them into their own tanks again for a parameter orientated experiment...

Yes, this is why you should try to always have a "constant" in the equation. For example, If a pair of fish breed well in "A" type water and again in "B" type water but not in "C" type water, then you know "C" type water is most likely the culprit. If you take an unknown pair or one that has not had a successful spawn ever, then you really don't know whether the issue is the fish or the water. You may have noticed that throughout this whole issue I have been having with my Angel fry and Cory fry, I am constantly comparing them to when they were successful. Since nothing I have is that old that they should be slowing down production, it has to be the water. In the end, it was, just via the air.
In your case, I would assume that if you keep the breeder tanks at a nitrate level low enough to be considered not only safe but more than safe, it should not have a negative effect on the eggs. (Maybe keep some potted plants in those tanks for nitrate absorption?) In my case, the nitrate levels were high most likely due to the extra feeding I was doing to encourage spawning and the fact that the water change hadn't been done for a few weeks and wasn't going to be done until the next day, so the eggs were laid in questionable water to begin with then didn't have anything done about it for at least 24 hours so who knows what was to blame. As of tonight, all but the clear cory eggs have fungused ( only 3 clears that I can see) and I did another 50% water change this morning so now, I am just wanting to see what happens to the clear eggs after 4 days. ( Only a few of the eggs had fungus this morning but the rest did it during the day after the water change.) If they hatch, I will know for the next time. Either way, not going to do them without an antifungal again. So far, the only spawn that hatched happened when I peroxided the tank. I probably could have saved the last spawn if I had known that ammonia was the issue.

 

[coralbandit]

I guess I get to bug you more!
This is my new approach as I believe I may at times not have the lowest nitrate reading in the world since feeding adults to condition in same tank.
I pull the eggs into a 'dip and pour' container that I keep in tank water with MB.
Today I moved fresh eggs to dip and pour and then overflowed the dip in pour in the tank with clean new water.
Then I mb and now have water with probable lower if not zero nitrates?
Reasonable approach?
On anti fungal on eggs, Brenna gave me IAL for just such an experiment.
Quite a few actually so multiple experiments can be done.
Should I just try replacing MB with one leaf in the dip and pour.
I got enough sets of eggs cooking daily to give it whirl if you think worth while.

How are things progressing with hatchery air issues?

 

[Andy Sager]

I guess I get to bug you more!
This is my new approach as I believe I may at times not have the lowest nitrate reading in the world since feeding adults to condition in same tank.
I pull the eggs into a 'dip and pour' container that I keep in tank water with MB.
Today I moved fresh eggs to dip and pour and then overflowed the dip in pour in the tank with clean new water.
Then I mb and now have water with probable lower if not zero nitrates?
Reasonable approach?
On anti fungal on eggs, Brenna gave me IAL for just such an experiment.
Quite a few actually so multiple experiments can be done.
Should I just try replacing MB with one leaf in the dip and pour.
I got enough sets of eggs cooking daily to give it whirl if you think worth while.

How are things progressing with hatchery air issues?

To properly answer your question, you would have to know what the nitrate level is in the breeder tank if that's the original water you are putting the eggs in. If that is too high, the damage may have already been done. The process seems fine but only if all the players are playing on a good field.

As for antifungals, experimentations are the only way you are going to find out if it works. It might in your water but not mine so no one outside your water source can really give you a definitive answer as to whether it will work for you. As for the almond leaves over MB, I've not used the almond leaves before so I have no first hand info on the effects of the leaves on the fry. If you are going to try this, I would make sure you try it on eggs from a pair that has a proven success record and that the water quality from spawn to hatch + is not a factor. If the water is no good at the start or the eggs come from an unproven pair, the experiment is a bust because it's not giving you true results. Other factors can be tainting the results.

For my situation with the cory eggs, they all eventually fungused. I checked the nitrate level again this morning after doing two 50% water changes on consecutive days after spawn and the level was still between 40 & 80 ppm. That has to not be good for fish fry. So the eggs may have been doomed from the start as I too didn't know the nitrate level at spawning. I do have another plan for next time so we will see how it works out.

After the building has been closed up for the past 2 days ( and I was out of town all day yesterday so the doors were never opened), and after getting a 0 reading the other day, I now got a slight pump up in ammonia in the building. So something in here is giving it off and I still don't have the time or space to empty this place out to see what it is. I've ordered an ammonia remover for the air that will sit in the flow of my A/C-heater and will be putting the air intake from the compressor outside over the weekend if the weather holds and I have time.

On a good note however, On Monday night, I set up a 2.5 gal tank with a very pregnant Green Cobra Guppy and Tuesday morning, about 15 little fry were swimming around in the tank. Not bad when you consider the size this female was. I have larger females that I will be needing to set up in larger tanks but that is a task for the weekend. I saw one of the larger red tail females must have had hers in the main tank yesterday while I was gone but there are no fry in the tank today. Have to assume either the other Guppies or the cories I had to put in with them ate them. There will be more I'm sure so no panic on this side.

 

[Andy Sager]

The frustration factor is high today for sure.
I have not received my ammonia filters yet and I have had to keep the building closed tight due to the cold weather that has been around so the ammonia level in the building is once again up in the 5 ppm area. Making that an issue, I have had 4 pairs of Angels spawning today and I have no clean water already set up or clean 10 gals due to my recent Guppy additions I now am using the 10 gals for. Making that worse is that the 4 pairs are fish I REALLY could use the fry from.
And if that wasn't enough, we were supposed to have a quick line of storms come through today and I was going to start building the rack for the new Guppy tanks but every time I took the saw out, it started to either drizzle or rain. And to top that off,
I laid out the schematic for the rack and went to my lumber pile only to find that I am short one 8' 2"x 3" so even if it weren't raining, I wouldn't be able to finish the rack today.
So now, at this late stage of the day, all I have accomplished today is a few posts to this site and this post of frustration.

( I should have spent my day cleaning... )

 

[sinibotia]

Sorry to hear about the issues Andy. Never easy huh?

There's something I'd like to share with you, maybe interesting to you maybe not. I'm taking a developmental biology course this semester and I get to do a lab experiment involving exposing zebra danio embryos to basically whatever I want. Could possibly try adding ammonia to see exactly what happens and how you could combat it, or try anything else you might be interested in

On top of that, my TA for the course is a grad student working with staining techniques on zebra fish eggs and she's expressed great interest in using her techniques on some of my angelfish eggs. So I may have some fascinating pictures of angelfish development for you to look at in the near future

Hope that improves your day a little

 

[Andy Sager]

Sorry to hear about the issues Andy. Never easy huh?

There's something I'd like to share with you, maybe interesting to you maybe not. I'm taking a developmental biology course this semester and I get to do a lab experiment involving exposing zebra danio embryos to basically whatever I want. Could possibly try adding ammonia to see exactly what happens and how you could combat it, or try anything else you might be interested in

On top of that, my TA for the course is a grad student working with staining techniques on zebra fish eggs and she's expressed great interest in using her techniques on some of my angelfish eggs. So I may have some fascinating pictures of angelfish development for you to look at in the near future

Hope that improves your day a little

That all sounds interesting for sure. There is a difference however between a danio fry and a cichlid fry. Zebra danios were chosen to be the "Glo- Fish" because they are sensitive to poor water ( the perverbial Canary in a coal mine) so they will be more sensitive to ammonia than the Cichlid fry. In their case, the problem would start in the egg while in my case, it appears the problem starts ( or continues) once hatched.

As for the staining of Angel eggs, what would be the purpose? There are already "Glo" Angelfish so we know they can be genetically modified to glow. What else is your TA trying to show?

 

[sinibotia]

That all sounds interesting for sure. There is a difference however between a danio fry and a cichlid fry. Zebra danios were chosen to be the "Glo- Fish" because they are sensitive to poor water ( the perverbial Canary in a coal mine) so they will be more sensitive to ammonia than the Cichlid fry. In their case, the problem would start in the egg while in my case, it appears the problem starts ( or continues) once hatched.

As for the staining of Angel eggs, what would be the purpose? There are already "Glo" Angelfish so we know they can be genetically modified to glow. What else is your TA trying to show?

Nothing to do with genetic modification or getting angelfish to show certain colors; staining is a technique that is basically using a "molecular highlighter" on a certain part of an organism so you can see it more clearly. It's kinda like those videos where they put dye in a tank so you can see how the water is flowing. But instead of dye in a tank, it's a dye that binds to a part of the developing fish so you can see that part clearly. I used staining this summer to count blood cells in oysters; depending on the dye you use certain things "pop" under the microscope. I think she's doing something with muscle cells? So I think we'll get a nice in-depth look at an angelfish's muscles as it develops. That sounds awesome to me

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staining

 

[Andy Sager]

Nothing to do with genetic modification or getting angelfish to show certain colors; staining is a technique that is basically using a "molecular highlighter" on a certain part of an organism so you can see it more clearly. It's kinda like those videos where they put dye in a tank so you can see how the water is flowing. But instead of dye in a tank, it's a dye that binds to a part of the developing fish so you can see that part clearly. I used staining this summer to count blood cells in oysters; depending on the dye you use certain things "pop" under the microscope. I think she's doing something with muscle cells? So I think we'll get a nice in-depth look at an angelfish's muscles as it develops. That sounds awesome to me

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staining

That does sound interesting. I'd be curious to know if there is some type of structural issues that causes runts that could be modified to reduce the number of them in overly bred fish.

 

[sinibotia]

That does sound interesting. I'd be curious to know if there is some type of structural issues that causes runts that could be modified to reduce the number of them in overly bred fish.

Oh wow that would be interesting! I'm taking an entire dev bio class, lab and lecture, so now's the time to let me know questions like that! Professors tend to like students who ask good questions and students that professors like get better grades Not to mention I took this class to find out stuff like this

 

[Brookster123]

Hey andy! Lookiee what I have just brought home

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[Andy Sager]

Hey andy! Lookiee what I have just brought home

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Wild????? ( sorry for the extra ?s The original message was too short. )

 

[Brookster123]

Sini asked the same?? Are they?!?!? Dude I dunno.. they were "blue angels" did I make a mistake? They came in with an order of wc apistos??

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[Brookster123]

More

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[Andy Sager]

Sini asked the same?? Are they?!?!? Dude I dunno.. they were "blue angels" did I make a mistake? They came in with an order of wc apistos??

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Blue Angels are not wild. Wilds are usually listed as Silver Scalare or just Scalare Angels. They look nice so enjoy them. But if you are looking for wild caught Angels, you have to ask for them as wild caught fish.

 

[Autumnsky]

More

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Those look very blue though, pretty.

 

[Andy Sager]

Just to rub a bit of salt into the wound, I had 2 more spawns today which I still have no room for. Instead of doing water changes today, I decided to make the new Guppy rack with what wood I had and it turns out, I had enough after all. The new Guppy tanks should be here on Monday. I decided to make this a recirculating system to prevent me from having even more tanks to clean. I'll install a drain valve into the return line so that all I will need to do is turn it on and drain into my big drain bucket and turn on the hose to fill from the sump. Since I already have air in that area, I can run sponge filters in all the tanks anyway until I finish with the plumbing. This way I can use the tanks as soon as they are drilled.

The proliferation of Guppies is starting to take over the place so I sure hope the weather eases up here soon so I can start making good use of the vats outside.

 

[Laeris]

You have the most fascinating workarounds. I hope to see pics one day


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