A Little Help, Please? (pH, Nitrate, and stocking question)

[mandy2936]

Hi there.

Upfront Info:
I have a 20 gallon tank that's been running for 3 months. It's stocked 100% with 4 male Guppies, 6 Neon Tetra, 4 Julii Cories, 1 Dwarf Gourami, and 2 Otocinclus.

pH Problems:
Usually my pH in the past has been 7.0-7.5. I was content with that.
Recently, I tested my water and noticed that it's dropped to 6.0-6.5!
Then, two fish died. (I used to have 5 Guppies and 3 Ottos)
It is now staying at that low meaurement. What can I do
to safely raise it without making my fish stressed?

Also, my water is actually very hard. It's 180ppm, the highest on the test strip. It's always been that way, really. (The lowest it's ever dropped was 2nd to highest on the strip) Just letting you know because a lot of people guess with low pH I have soft, acidic water when its actually far from it!

Stocking Help:
Finally, I am having trouble with my stocking. I know that the bioload is at it's max, but I'm so frustrated because I work really hard on this tank and it looks totally empty and deserted. People come to my house, look into my tank, and go, "Hey, where's the fish?"
Ughh... I don't know if this just can't be helped- but I feel like I'm the only one with this problem. Please- Any suggesions?

Water Parameters:
Lastly, incase you would need to know..
Ammonia- 0.5-0.0 (I'm trying to bring this down incase it's not at 0)
Nitrite- 0
Nitrate- It was 20 yesterday, but after a water change it's a bit closer to 0.

THANK YOU so much! I know this question is quite a handfull and I appreciate the help immensly!!

 

[BigJim]

People worry far too much about pH. As long as it's constant, the fish will adapt.

I see you're using test strips. This alone could account for your different readings. I highly recommend ditching the strips and using a liquid reagent test kit like the API Freshwater Master. What's your pH out of the tap? Fill a cup and let it sit on the counter overnight to degas. Test this water to get a true baseline reading.

Do you have a lid on the tank? Do you have good surface agitation? A still or tightly sealed tank will keep CO2 in the tank, lowering the pH.

I wouldn't say your bioload is maxed out. With adequate filtration, you should have no problem adding more fish. Start with a few more cories. You could also put some more neons in the tank. Neons really look nice in a good school

How is the tank decorated? Fish like to have cover nearby to feel secure. If the tank is rather bare, the fish may feel threatened and hide. Tall plants (real or fake) will help.

 

[Andrewz00]

+++1 for the PI Freshwater Master!! ASAP! those strips can be a nightmare for an accurate reading...

Yes, not providing enough gas exchange between the water and the room will cause a buildup of CO2 therefore decreasing your PH levels. That being said, you want to avoid radical PH swings and find something stable without the use of a PH chemical.

You can check out AqAdvisor - Intelligent Freshwater Tropical Fish Aquarium Stocking Calculator and Aquarium Tank/Filter Advisor for stocking guidelines....

 

[BigJim]

You can check out AqAdvisor - Intelligent Freshwater Tropical Fish Aquarium Stocking Calculator and Aquarium Tank/Filter Advisor for stocking guidelines....

I have to strongly stress the "guidelines" part of this statement. I've found the program to be very conservative and not entirely accurate. It's a good tool for someone who's just starting out. It's more reliable than the tag info at the big box stores, but it doesn't trump experience.

 

[Andrewz00]

BigJim... i agree with that 100%!! Experience is key in this game... and i should have stressed "guidelines" slightly more....

 

[adeebm]

If your tank pH has dropped to 6, but your tap pH is still 7 then that could be a problem. How often and how large of PWCs are you doing? Fish waste, driftwood, etc can overtime lower pH. Like BigJim said, it's not a problem unless you're getting pH swings, in which case, more water changes will keep at at the same pH as your tap.

--Adeeb

 

[mandy2936]

People worry far too much about pH. As long as it's constant, the fish will adapt.

That's the thing, it changed, meaning it's not constant.

I see you're using test strips. This alone could account for your different readings. I highly recommend ditching the strips and using a liquid reagent test kit like the API Freshwater Master.

I use test strips for everything but Ammonia. I can't help it, that's the only thing I can find around here.

Do you have a lid on the tank? Do you have good surface agitation? A still or tightly sealed tank will keep CO2 in the tank, lowering the pH.

I have a hood and incandescent lighting. I have a pretty strong flow from my filter. So should I leave the hood open or something?

I wouldn't say your bioload is maxed out. With adequate filtration, you should have no problem adding more fish. Start with a few more cories. You could also put some more neons in the tank. Neons really look nice in a good school

I would love to add like 2 more Neons and a Guppy but I'm weary of doing this because according to AqAdvisor my tank is currently 100% stocked. It was 106% stocked before, and then two fish died for no apparent reason besides stress from an overstocked tank. (My water quality was fine) I think I would just give some time before adding more fish.

How is the tank decorated? Fish like to have cover nearby to feel secure. If the tank is rather bare, the fish may feel threatened and hide. Tall plants (real or fake) will help.

I think I need to add some more plants. Right now they are all silk or plastic, except for a live bamboo stalk, but I would like to add a live plant in the back, possibly a Java Fern.

 

[mandy2936]

If your tank pH has dropped to 6, but your tap pH is still 7 then that could be a problem. How often and how large of PWCs are you doing? Fish waste, driftwood, etc can overtime lower pH. Like BigJim said, it's not a problem unless you're getting pH swings, in which case, more water changes will keep at at the same pH as your tap.

I do a lot of little frequent water changes, so I think I am going to change that to one large one a week. It will be lest stressful on the fish and more affective. That might help.

 

[mattrox]

What is the KH of your aquarium water now?

 

[mandy2936]

What is the KH of your aquarium water now?

Ugh. Right now the KH says 0... not sure if that's good or bad.
I can't really trust the strips, because I tested three of them at the same time, and each one gave me a different reading!!
One says my Nitrate is 40, the other says 20.
Each says pH is either 6.0, 6.5, or 7.0.
My hardness varies between 180 and 120.
Ugh, it's frustrating.

However, the KH does not change. It always says 0.
The Nitrite is always 0, too.

I am trying to go to the pet store either tomorrow or friday, and when I do, I will look for test tubes but they never really have any, as mentioned before.

 

[adeebm]

I highly doubt your KH is 0, so most likely the test strip is wrong. But if it were 0, that would be your problem. KH keeps the pH stable, and with a KH of 0, you would get wild pH swings. Test tubes are probably your best bet. Ordering them online w/shipping is probably cheaper than buying from your LFS. And walmart sells the API master test kit for $17 shipped.

--Adeeb

 

[BigJim]

I use test strips for everything but Ammonia. I can't help it, that's the only thing I can find around here.

Do you have a Petsmart nearby? I believe they carry it. They might have to order it for you, but they can get it.

I have a hood and incandescent lighting. I have a pretty strong flow from my filter. So should I leave the hood open or something?

Do you get surface agitation from the filter? Leaving the hood open isn't necessary if you're getting decent surface agitation.

I would love to add like 2 more Neons and a Guppy but I'm weary of doing this because according to AqAdvisor my tank is currently 100% stocked. It was 106% stocked before, and then two fish died for no apparent reason besides stress from an overstocked tank. (My water quality was fine) I think I would just give some time before adding more fish.

This is one of the reasons I'm not too fond of the program. I've had my 29g stocked up to 300% and higher according to AqAdvisor, but the fish were happy and the water parameters were perfect. When I broke the filter, the water parameters stayed 0-0-10 for a week while I waited for another filter.

As you hinted, it's best to figure out the reason for the pH swing before adding more fish. But after it's settled, you shouldn't have a problem adding a few more fish.

I think I need to add some more plants. Right now they are all silk or plastic, except for a live bamboo stalk, but I would like to add a live plant in the back, possibly a Java Fern.

Is the bamboo stalk completely submerged? If so, it's only a matter of time before it dies and rots. Lucky bamboo isn't really bamboo. It's a swamp plant of some kind. It's one of the many "aquatic" plants the big box stores sell.

 

[mandy2936]

Oh.. hmm yeah the test strips definitely say 0 for KH... how can I fix that?

This is frustrating.

 

[taylorodw]

Few things:

Definitely use Wal-Mart site-to-store shipping to get the test kit for $18 at ANY Wal-Mart (even one that doesn't normally carry it). They also can ship to your home for a great price, but there may be a better deal out there, including shipping. We haven't heard about it on the forums though.

Also, as AqAdvisor's creator said in another thread:

I believe that a "working stocking level" is a range. I've seen people who will maintain tanks for years at 200% without issues but they do their share of tank maintenance and also make sure aggression issues are properly handled. AqAdvisor is a tool for beginners hence I don't suggest them to stock them up to 200%. But I'm sure advanced keepers can go well beyond 100% without issues

Point here being, stop caring about AqAdvisor, because you know how to take care of your fish! You can push beyond the beginner level. If your nitrates don't rise ~15ppm in one week, your tank can handle more stock if you have the physical room for the fish to feel comfortable. If your tank seems "empty" you probably do.

Thirdly, one reason your tank may feel "empty" is because you have so many different species in it. Having a bunch of species in small numbers makes it so there is less "focal point" to draw attention - if, for example, you had 10 tetras instead of 4 guppies and 6 tetras, you would always see a large tetra cloud in the tank. Also, schooling fish are happier in larger groups (basically the bigger the better) so they will be more active!

Lastly, over time KH is depleted by the process of the nitrogen cycle (and possibly other processes as well - I have no idea TBH ) so a KH of 0 is a sign of not enough water changes, plus tap water with low KH. I also have low KH water with a high hardness (which is GH, or general hardness); my water has a high pH though, unlike yours.

I don't want to harp on this, and I'm not criticizing you as a person, I just know you care about your fish and want to do what's best for them - so I'm going to talk again about the whole "One big water change is better than a bunch of little ones" thing. I felt the need to qualify this because I know sometimes I can come off a little harsh, but I do like you Mandy and I just want to point out a way that, IMO, you could step up your fishkeeping!

For instance, all tap water has higher KH than aquarium water, unless you have buffers like crushed coral, special substrate, etc etc. So, your tap water has a certain KH, and basically, the more water you change, the more KH you add back into the water. When you do multiple PWCs in a row, you remove new water as well as old, in the ratio that you added the new water. So if you do two 1g PWCs in a row, the second water change removes 1/20th of the good stuff in a 20g.

Sorry, I don't mean to be repetitive on this subject, I just want to help you maximize your care

 

[mandy2936]

Thanks! Don't worry, I really should do less frequent larger water changes.
What is a good KH to have? (besides above 0)
Again, thanks for the tips.

 

[mattrox]

Having a KH of zero means it is harder to keep the pH stable. You will need to probably need to do more frequent regular pwcs as a part of your routine.

I'll re-hash some stuff I did in another post but relate nitrates to pH.

During the nitrogen cycle , some hydrogens lost from each ammonia (NH3) in the conversion to nitrates (NO3-) are released as acid (H+, hydrogen ions).

2 NH3 + 3 O2 - > 2 NO2 + 2 H+ + 2 H2O
then
2 NO2- + O2 -> 2 NO3-

Which essentially means:
When ammonia is converted to nitrite 3 hydrogen atoms are removed and 2 oxygen atoms are added. NH3 -> NO2
Then when nitrite is converted to nitrate one more oxygen is added.
NO2 -> NO3

Why does this matter, you ask? It matters because ppm is based on mass (weight) Ammonia is 17.04, Nitrite is 46.01 and Nitrate is 62.01.

1 ammonia is converted to form 1 nitrite, 1 nitrite is in turn converted to 1 nitrate. As this is happening the mass is increasing. (ppm is eqivalent to milligrams per litre). This means the number of milligrams is increasing as the conversion takes place. With out boring you with the calculations, 1 ppm of ammonia forms 2.7 ppm of nitrite then 3.6 ppm of nitrate.

Having said that 4ppm of ammonia -> 10.8ppm nitrite -> 14.4 ppm nitrate

So, at 14.4 ppm of nitrate there is an increase in acidity, (assuming pH 7 and no buffering) so that the new pH is 3.6. In soft water situations this means the pH will crash rather quickly. One reason discus keepers often change large volumes of water daily.


Whlie your KH may read 0 there is likely to be some carbonate so the pH might not crash so fast. But my adivce for you is to keep your nitrates below 10 to avoid pH swings.

 

[mandy2936]

Thanks for info. I will have to just do larger water changes to keep the Nitrates down. Also, I will check the Walmart near me to see if they have the API test kits.
I was actually using API test strips, but I will look for the tube kind.
Thanks to everyone who has helped me, KH must be the cause. Unfortunately I have lost quite a few fish because of the low pH, but hopefully I can get that settled soon.

 

[BillD]

that tank is very lightly stocked as already mentioned. Doing weekly water changes of 50% is more than adequate and you can dispense with all these tests that are inconclusive and confusing. 50% might be more than necessary, but won't hurt, and it is better to err on the side of caution. pH swing isn't really a big deal, as planted tanks with CO2 injection, have large daily swings, with no ill effects.
Guppies are not the hardy fish they were years ago before they were so highly bred, so the odd death is not unusual. I don't believe you lost fish because of the pH. the key to successful aquarium management is clean water, and the best way to attain that is regular large (I know large is relative) water changes. I have no qualms whatsoever of changing 95% of the water.