Almost 2 months and no cycle???

[fishlover1990]

I have a 30 gallon tank stocked with 14 zebra danios. It's been going as a fish in cycle for just shy of two months and it's gotten no where. I haven't seen nitrites or nitrates during this time. I've been doing every other day 30-50% water changes to combat the AMN which gets as high as 1ppm but i've never let it get higher without changing water and or dosing with seachem prime. My most recent results from this morning are PH-7 AMN-1 Nitrite-0 Nitrate-0. I did a 30% water change and dosed with sea chem prime to bring that AMN back down. I test daily with api master kit and I also use tetra test strips and compare the results to have as much information as possible. I do have a heater which stays at 76 degrees and it is planted with several Java Ferns (which don't seem to be doing all that great?) My tap water has very very low kh and gh which is another reason I have been doing the water changes in addition to the AMN. I have used 2 different bottles of BB Seachem Stability and Petco brand Imagitarium (Spelling?) and neither seemed to have work. I am at a loss at this point. My betta tank cycled in a few weeks with a bottle of TST no problem no stress but this tank won't do anything. I have tried leaving the AMN so the Bacteria can process undetoxified that didn't work, I tried the BB that didn't work, I don't know what's left to do? I just recently got some crushed coral to hopefully help with the low kh and gh levels from the tap but outside of that what's left to try am I forced to do every other day water changes for the fish's life lol? I fish in cycled my betta tank and it was the easiest stress free thing ever and that was 1 fish in a 10 gallon tank so I figured 14 in a 30 would be just as simple boy was I wrong. The only thing I did different with my betta tank was I used spring water only I never used tap water He was my first fish so I was paranoid and but gallon jugs of spring water never tap so that's the only thing I can think of difference wise between the 2.

 

[Dawn A]

When starting your tank, did you use SafeStart or something like it? Also are you using anything like AquaSafe? Sorry I don't know the brands you mentioned so you may have said that. I was having a little difficulty with my tank recently and had to do several partial water changes as well but my fishies got through it. My fish are still in treatment with frequent 25% water changes(using AquaSafe), as well as Pimafix and Melifix for any illnesses.

 

[fishlover1990]

When starting your tank, did you use SafeStart or something like it? Also are you using anything like AquaSafe? Sorry I don't know the brands you mentioned so you may have said that. I was having a little difficulty with my tank recently and had to do several partial water changes as well but my fishies got through it. My fish are still in treatment with frequent 25% water changes(using AquaSafe), as well as Pimafix and Melifix for any illnesses.

I didn't use Safestart on this tank I used Seachem Stability, and Imagitarium which is a Petco brand of BB. I did use TSS on my betta tank awhile back. I do every other day water changes because I have to with the AMN levels as well as to replenish GH and KH. Melafix and Pimafix in my opinion are the worst things on the market and should be avoided at all costs they are oil and the one time I gave it to my fish they almost died. It robs oxygen out of the water and imo provides little to no healing benefit just fyi. Also my fish are healthy happy and eating and behaving normal I keep the AMN in check so there's no need for that anyways.

 

[Aiken Drum]

Have you tried adding a small amount of filter media from your betta tank filter into the filter you are trying to cycle? Thats the best way to speed things up.

Edit. Also 14 fish in a 30g is a lot of fish to be doing a fish in cycle with. 1 small fish / 10g is a safe point to start from. Shouldnt be slowing down your cycle, except possibly you are needing to do a lot of water changes to keep things safe with that much bioload.

 

[Caliban07]

My first thought was hardness. If it is indeed true that it takes 7.14ppm alkalinity as calcium carbonate to nitrify 1ppm ammonia as sources from wastewater management suggest then you may need to increase your KH. To do this you can add some dolomite powder periodically (this is what I do) or some onyx sand.

If you have very very low KH then you likely have very very low pH. Low pH makes ammonia much less toxic. It’s fascinating how nature works isn’t it?

 

[fishlover1990]

My first thought was hardness. If it is indeed true that it takes 7.14ppm alkalinity as calcium carbonate to nitrify 1ppm ammonia as sources from wastewater management suggest then you may need to increase your KH. To do this you can add some dolomite powder periodically (this is what I do) or some onyx sand.

If you have very very low KH then you likely have very very low pH. Low pH makes ammonia much less toxic. It’s fascinating how nature works isn’t it?

I have battled fluctuating ph since the beginning (this wasn't a issue with my betta tank cause again I used store bought spring water only) to fix the ph I periodically add api ph up and that's the reasoning behind the crushed coral as well. my gh and kh are incredibly low coming out of the tap which I figured was the issue or at least part of it but I wasn't entirely sure how to fix it. I mantain my ph at about 6.8-7.0 by water changes to replace them and or ph up.

 

[fishlover1990]

Have you tried adding a small amount of filter media from your betta tank filter into the filter you are trying to cycle? Thats the best way to speed things up.

Edit. Also 14 fish in a 30g is a lot of fish to be doing a fish in cycle with. 1 small fish / 10g is a safe point to start from. Shouldnt be slowing down your cycle, except possibly you are needing to do a lot of water changes to keep things safe with that much bioload.

I know it's a lot but I do keep the bioload in check with very very frequent water changes at the moment as well as seachem prime during water changes or if needed in a emergency. If anything the higher bioload should in a sense help the cycle should it not? more bioload equals more AMN so there should be plenty for bacteria to feed on right?

 

[Caliban07]

I have battled fluctuating ph since the beginning (this wasn't a issue with my betta tank cause again I used store bought spring water only) to fix the ph I periodically add api ph up and that's the reasoning behind the crushed coral as well. my gh and kh are incredibly low coming out of the tap which I figured was the issue or at least part of it but I wasn't entirely sure how to fix it. I mantain my ph at about 6.8-7.0 by water changes to replace them and or ph up.

I don’t see the same response using crushed coral as I do with dolomite. Almost certainly due to solubility. Crushed coral I’d imagine is more of a trickle top up of carbonates as the coral slowly dissolves. The dissolution of which will be pH dependent. Potassium bicarbonate is another option (not sodium bicarbonate) the pH buffers are no good. They will almost certainly be contributing to the fluctuations.

Also, the higher the bioload the more nitrification and the more draw on carbonates. Adding some plants will alleviate this as they will help to take up the ammonia directly. My tap also has an extremely low conductivity because there’s virtually no ionic content. I add dolomite for the plants too as they can you the carbonates to satisfy their carbon requirements. Healthier plants will be more efficient at scavenging ammonia.

 

[Aiken Drum]

I know it's a lot but I do keep the bioload in check with very very frequent water changes at the moment as well as seachem prime during water changes or if needed in a emergency. If anything the higher bioload should in a sense help the cycle should it not? more bioload equals more AMN so there should be plenty for bacteria to feed on right?

Im not sure that more bioload speeds up the cycle. Ive never seen any evidence to suggest that although ive often seen that same conclusion. When doing a fishless cycle you dose high levels at the outset so you dont have to keep going back and redosing.

Just trying to suggest reasons why your cycle isnt establishing, probably nothing as you say. If you say your water changes are leaving enough ammonia in the system to cycle your tank while removing enough to keep your fish healthy i have no reason to doubt what you say.

If the difference between your cycled betta tank and the tank your struggling with is the water source, then perhaps thats the issue. The water hardness.

 

[fishlover1990]

I don’t see the same response using crushed coral as I do with dolomite. Almost certainly due to solubility. Crushed coral I’d imagine is more of a trickle top up of carbonates as the coral slowly dissolves. The dissolution of which will be pH dependent. Potassium bicarbonate is another option (not sodium bicarbonate) the pH buffers are no good. They will almost certainly be contributing to the fluctuations.

Also, the higher the bioload the more nitrification and the more draw on carbonates. Adding some plants will alleviate this as they will help to take up the ammonia directly. My tap also has an extremely low conductivity because there’s virtually no ionic content. I add dolomite for the plants too as they can you the carbonates to satisfy their carbon requirements. Healthier plants will be more efficient at scavenging ammonia.

I have 3 java ferns in my tank at the moment but to be honest they don't seem to be doing all that great. they are alive and they are producing little sprouts/buds on there leaves but alot of the leaves look dead/dying they are dark borwn with very little green on them. So I would not be opposed to trying the dolomite. I am not familiar with that is it sold at pet stores or ordered online? I just got the crushed coral so it's a very new thing I was recommended to try and help. I can also get more live plants if that will help. I was wondering if I should be adding liquid fertilizer for them? If my tap water parameters are so low is that what's potential hurting the plants as well? as far as the dolomite is concerned is it something I should put in a mesh bag and hang in the tank or does it need to be directly in the filter? I dont have a ton of space in the back of my filter so if I can hang it in the filter outflow that would be great.

 

[fishlover1990]

Im not sure that more bioload speeds up the cycle. Ive never seen any evidence to suggest that although ive often seen that same conclusion. When doing a fishless cycle you dose high levels at the outset so you dont have to keep going back and redosing.

Just trying to suggest reasons why your cycle isnt establishing, probably nothing as you say. If you say your water changes are leaving enough ammonia in the system to cycle your tank while removing enough to keep your fish healthy i have no reason to doubt what you say.

If the difference between your cycled betta tank and the tank your struggling with is the water source, then perhaps thats the issue. The water hardness.

I do appreciate your help and I am sorry if it came off as rude. It was a legitimate question. I am no fish expert by any means so I was trying to use the most basic rationale in my head I could think of. AMN becomes nitrites which becomes nitrates so more AMN means there should be plenty for the bacteria to feed on. I'm sure this is incorrect thinking I was more guessing/assuming than anything. I do every other day water changes cause if I don't the Amn will be 1.00ppm or higher so at the moment it's the only real option I have without killing my fish at least until the cycle kick starts finally. Up until getting this tank/fish I didn't even know water hardness existed or was a thing lol

 

[Aiken Drum]

I do appreciate your help and I am sorry if it came off as rude. It was a legitimate question. I am no fish expert by any means so I was trying to use the most basic rationale in my head I could think of. AMN becomes nitrites which becomes nitrates so more AMN means there should be plenty for the bacteria to feed on. I'm sure this is incorrect thinking I was more guessing/assuming than anything. I do every other day water changes cause if I don't the Amn will be 1.00ppm or higher so at the moment it's the only real option I have without killing my fish at least until the cycle kick starts finally. Up until getting this tank/fish I didn't even know water hardness existed or was a thing lol

Its a very valid question. To me it makes sense that more ammonia would mean more food and a quicker cycle. And im not saying that isnt the case. Ive just never seen any evidence that it is actually the case. Its probably difficult to prove one way or the other. So many variables to take account of.

Water hardness is a bit of a mystery to me too. When i read about it i understand it, but sadly its not something my brain can retain so i have to re-read when i feel the need to understand it.

I would take heed of what Caliban says about the water hardness issue. It seems to be the relevant variable between your tanks. I think what he has said is far more helpful than anything ive offered. Although adding some established media from your betta tank might help. At least you know it contains the necessary bacteria, whereas who knows whether there is anything of benefit in the bottled bacteria you used.

 

[Caliban07]

I have 3 java ferns in my tank at the moment but to be honest they don't seem to be doing all that great. they are alive and they are producing little sprouts/buds on there leaves but alot of the leaves look dead/dying they are dark borwn with very little green on them. So I would not be opposed to trying the dolomite. I am not familiar with that is it sold at pet stores or ordered online? I just got the crushed coral so it's a very new thing I was recommended to try and help. I can also get more live plants if that will help. I was wondering if I should be adding liquid fertilizer for them? If my tap water parameters are so low is that what's potential hurting the plants as well? as far as the dolomite is concerned is it something I should put in a mesh bag and hang in the tank or does it need to be directly in the filter? I dont have a ton of space in the back of my filter so if I can hang it in the filter outflow that would be great.

I have recommended crushed coral myself in the past. It does seem to be a frequent recommendation across forums for increasing water hardness.

I like to test things for myself though and I can see a much better response from plants using dolomite powder as opposed to the coral. You must bear in mind though that I am supplementing all of the other minerals the plants need in addition to dolomite using a fertiliser salts.

The issue with most fertilisers is that they don’t contain carbonates. They often consist of calcium and magnesium in sulphate compounds.

In my tank I have an inert sand substrate and the only form of carbonate hardness my plants receive is from the infrequent water changes with my soft water and whatever is in the fish food. Lately I use an insect meal derived fish food as opposed to fish meal. Fish meal contains the bones of fish which likely contains small amounts of calcium carbonate. I do not supplement with carbon dioxide injection and use an airstone. Plant growth as a result is very slow unless I increase my carbonate hardness.

This is because 95% of the semi aquatic plants we keep can use carbonates as a carbon source and is the main reason that ‘low tech’ plants thrive in ‘low tech’ aquariums. Many parts of the US and southern parts of the UK have very hard tap water and will not run in to these issues. If they stick to a 50% weekly water change they may never see any growth issues with plants at all. Hard water often contains plenty of other essential minerals too.

You can get an all in one fertiliser (likely no carbonates) and dose some dolomite or potassium bicarbonate to replenish the KH. I use TNC complete but the Thrive products are very popular in the US.

Below is a picture of the dolomite I use. It is a powder and was sourced from eBay. Bear in mind it takes a good number of hours to fully dissolve and can leave the tank a little cloudy in the mean time but it is harmless. It provides calcium, magnesium and carbonates and the chemical formula is CaMgCo3. Use the Rotala butterfly calculator to see how much you need to dose. I aim for a 2dKH rise. I am currently experimenting with potassium bicarbonate as this adds much more KH for the same dose.

 

[fishlover1990]

I have recommended crushed coral myself in the past. It does seem to be a frequent recommendation across forums for increasing water hardness.

I like to test things for myself though and I can see a much better response from plants using dolomite powder as opposed to the coral. You must bear in mind though that I am supplementing all of the other minerals the plants need in addition to dolomite using a fertiliser salts.

The issue with most fertilisers is that they don’t contain carbonates. They often consist of calcium and magnesium in sulphate compounds.

In my tank I have an inert sand substrate and the only form of carbonate hardness my plants receive is from the infrequent water changes with my soft water and whatever is in the fish food. Lately I use an insect meal derived fish food as opposed to fish meal. Fish meal contains the bones of fish which likely contains small amounts of calcium carbonate. I do not supplement with carbon dioxide injection and use an airstone. Plant growth as a result is very slow unless I increase my carbonate hardness.

This is because 95% of the semi aquatic plants we keep can use carbonates as a carbon source and is the main reason that ‘low tech’ plants thrive in ‘low tech’ aquariums. Many parts of the US and southern parts of the UK have very hard tap water and will not run in to these issues. If they stick to a 50% weekly water change they may never see any growth issues with plants at all. Hard water often contains plenty of other essential minerals too.

You can get an all in one fertiliser (likely no carbonates) and dose some dolomite or potassium bicarbonate to replenish the KH. I use TNC complete but the Thrive products are very popular in the US.

Below is a picture of the dolomite I use. It is a powder and was sourced from eBay. Bear in mind it takes a good number of hours to fully dissolve and can leave the tank a little cloudy in the mean time but it is harmless. It provides calcium, magnesium and carbonates and the chemical formula is CaMgCo3. Use the Rotala butterfly calculator to see how much you need to dose. I aim for a 2dKH rise. I am currently experimenting with potassium bicarbonate as this adds much more KH for the same dose.

View attachment 321172

So I went to the pet store to try and get some dolomite and they did not sell it but they did sell aragonite which after a lot of reading seems to do almost the exact same thing. It says it replenishes Mg,Ca, and Sr and will raise my ph and kh in the water. I will order some dolomite as well but in the mean time I thought I could give this a try. I don't know if you have any familiarity with this. I did also buy a small bottle of liquid fetalizer just in case but the guy at the pet store said to hold off on adding it and see if the aragonite does the trick. I do have a air stone in my tank and I follow a very strict lightning schedule so as far as the plants go I think nutrients is the issue there and also the overall issue with my tank as a whole. I popped some in a mesh bag and put in in my filter and let's hope for the best! the bag said 1lb per gallon of water which is for reef tanks so I only used 2/3 a cup not sure if that's enough or to much I figured I would let it sit overnight and test in the morning and see if there's any change and adjust the amount from there.

 

[Caliban07]

So I went to the pet store to try and get some dolomite and they did not sell it but they did sell aragonite which after a lot of reading seems to do almost the exact same thing. It says it replenishes Mg,Ca, and Sr and will raise my ph and kh in the water. I will order some dolomite as well but in the mean time I thought I could give this a try. I don't know if you have any familiarity with this. I did also buy a small bottle of liquid fetalizer just in case but the guy at the pet store said to hold off on adding it and see if the aragonite does the trick. I do have a air stone in my tank and I follow a very strict lightning schedule so as far as the plants go I think nutrients is the issue there and also the overall issue with my tank as a whole. I popped some in a mesh bag and put in in my filter and let's hope for the best! the bag said 1lb per gallon of water which is for reef tanks so I only used 2/3 a cup not sure if that's enough or to much I figured I would let it sit overnight and test in the morning and see if there's any change and adjust the amount from there.

Aragonite is another that can raise KH but I fear it may suffer the same dissolution issue as the coral. But listen, it’s all about trial and error. Testing different things and observing FOR YOURSELF makes you a much wiser aquarist. I never did try aragonite but I know someone who has.

They have extremely hard tap water and now have many many tanks on the go using rain water to experiment. Guess what though, his rain water has a higher conductivity than my tap. So even his rain water is harder than my tap.

Now his using rain water and Onyx sand as a substrate.

Look how much his dwarf Sagittaria love it



Trouble is Onyx sand is mightily expensive over here in the UK. Let me know how the Aragonite does and I’ll feedback on the potassium bicarbonate. I suspect potassium bicarbonate to be the key.

Which fertiliser did you get and what does it contain?

 

[fishlover1990]

Aragonite is another that can raise KH but I fear it may suffer the same dissolution issue as the coral. But listen, it’s all about trial and error. Testing different things and observing FOR YOURSELF makes you a much wiser aquarist. I never did try aragonite but I know someone who has.

They have extremely hard tap water and now have many many tanks on the go using rain water to experiment. Guess what though, his rain water has a higher conductivity than my tap. So even his rain water is harder than my tap.

Now his using rain water and Onyx sand as a substrate.

Look how much his dwarf Sagittaria love it

View attachment 321173

Trouble is Onyx sand is mightily expensive over here in the UK. Let me know how the Aragonite does and I’ll feedback on the potassium bicarbonate. I suspect potassium bicarbonate to be the key.

Which fertiliser did you get and what does it contain?

I got a small bottle of seachem flourish. I like the sea chem products so I figured it's what I already use for everything else ill just stick with them. I haven't put it in the tank as of yet. I'm gonna do a water change and a water test and monitor the aragonite for a day or two and see if that changes anything. It is very finely ground up like fine sand so I'm hoping it will dissolve a little better because of it even i fit helps the tank a little it's better than nothing.

 

[Caliban07]

I got a small bottle of seachem flourish. I like the sea chem products so I figured it's what I already use for everything else ill just stick with them. I haven't put it in the tank as of yet. I'm gonna do a water change and a water test and monitor the aragonite for a day or two and see if that changes anything. It is very finely ground up like fine sand so I'm hoping it will dissolve a little better because of it even i fit helps the tank a little it's better than nothing.

It might be much better than the coral. Fingers crossed. Someone will need to correct me but I think flourish is only the micro nutrients and doesn’t contain much of the macro elements such as nitrogen, potassium and phosphorus but it is definitely better than nothing.

Let us know how you get on.

 

[fishlover1990]

It might be much better than the coral. Fingers crossed. Someone will need to correct me but I think flourish is only the micro nutrients and doesn’t contain much of the macro elements such as nitrogen, potassium and phosphorus but it is definitely better than nothing.

Let us know how you get on.

You are correct it says it on the bottle but I'm not very well versed in water chemistry and biology and all of that lol I still have ton's to learn I will definitely report back in a few days and let you know if there is any changes in the tank I mean at the very least it can't hurt it so that's a positive. And if you have any positive results with your test please feel free to share them cause I wouldn't mind trying it myself if this doesn't work.