Angelfish Hole In Head?

[WindSwept]

Hey all!

Recently noticed some strange marks in the backs of my two Philippine Blue Angels. Thinking it's hole in the head disease and was wondering if anyone here could confirm my suspicions?

Water quality in my tank is as good as ever- no new fish- thinking the only thing that's different is I started feeding them Omega One frozen fish food? I know live food can carry in some nasty stuff, could this be a cause of this trouble?

I took some photos so we'll see if they work..
In this first photo spots are close to the his eye..

 

[Andy Sager]

How long have you had the fish? It's rather unusual for a fish in good living conditions to come down with Hole in head. Are there any other fish in the tank that may have taken a bite out of these effected fish?

 

[WindSwept]

These two are about half a year old now I believe? Maybe a month or two older.
I only started feeding them frozen foods a month ago however.

Tank is 40g (taller rather than longer).

Tank-mates are:
x3 Congo Tetra
X2 Diamond Tetra
X4 Glowlight Tetras

I haven't seen any aggression between anyone- does it look more like bite marks rather than erosion?

When I was digging around on the web and found that angelfish are quite susceptible to HITH.

I did my weekly water change + stress coat then dosed the tank with Melafix and General Cure, which seems to be the popular combo.

 

[mikem691]

You aren't feeding frozen blood worms as a staple are you? A good pellet line NLS Thera a with garlic should be the main with blood worms as an occasional treat. What is your nitrates at?

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[Andy Sager]

There is a train of thought that HITH is a dietary condition or actually, a reaction to poor diet. It is, however, mostly seen in tanks with poor conditions. Angelfish are best fed a variety of foods and not just 1 staple with an occasional treat. I feed all breeder and potential breeder Angels: 2 kinds of Flake, freeze dried Tubifex worms and frozen brine shrimp as the staple diet. I'll add other treats occasionally. I also add a liquid vitamin now and then as well. You may want to add the vitamin as well to yours. The belief is that HITH is caused by a vitamin deficiency.
Hope this helps

 

[mikem691]

There is a train of thought that HITH is a dietary condition or actually, a reaction to poor diet. It is, however, mostly seen in tanks with poor conditions. Angelfish are best fed a variety of foods and not just 1 staple with an occasional treat. I feed all breeder and potential breeder Angels: 2 kinds of Flake, freeze dried Tubifex worms and frozen brine shrimp as the staple diet. I'll add other treats occasionally. I also add a liquid vitamin now and then as well. You may want to add the vitamin as well to yours. The belief is that HITH is caused by a vitamin deficiency.
Hope this helps

Good to know that Andy. I lean to the nitrates being high then or were at some point.

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[WindSwept]

Thanks for your help!!

I usually feed Omega Color Flakes, and introduced the frozen brine shrimp & carnivore food for some variety. The frozen foods seem to be a vastly less full of protein than the flake food- is there a reason many things I've read boast about frozen foods?

I'll definitely look into the liquid vitamins!

 

[WindSwept]

I'm looking into getting some other flake foods or pellets. Do you guys know which size pellet angelfish usually take? I'm not sure if .5mm or 1mm would be best..

 

[WindSwept]

I finished the directed treatment with general cure- but today I noticed that one has white and stringy poop.... So I suppose GC + Melafix did not do the trick.

I can't find medicated food- does anyone have experience soaking flake/pellets in metronidazole?

 

[mikem691]

I know nothing about treating but that guy should have no problem with 1mm pellets.

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[Brookster123]

Angel pimple!!! Pretty sure there are a few threads in the vault here.. andy please correct me if I'm mistaken! !
Maybe it's like getting a zit from eating to.much greasy food??
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[Andy Sager]

Angel pimple!!! Pretty sure there are a few threads in the vault here.. andy please correct me if I'm mistaken! !
Maybe it's like getting a zit from eating to.much greasy food??
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Based on the pictures, I believe this is more a hole than a pimple and HITH is my first diagnosis HOWEVER, HOW the fish came down with it seems to be the issue. Water quality? Dietary? Some other stress? Can't say for sure. But it takes great living conditions to reverse the condition and it takes a good amount of time in these great conditions for it to show.

 

[WindSwept]

Great! Thanks guys!

I've ordered some NLS pellets, so they'll be getting the good stuff soon!

I wish it was just a few too many cheese burgers! But these are definitely holes.

I've upped my water changes- with a little help from the canister filter hose that slipped its bracket! Staying off the frozen brine shrimp, and sticking to some flake foods. Going to hunt for some more medication tomorrow.

They're still eating well and not lethargic, so that seems promising.

 

[Andy Sager]

Great! Thanks guys!

I've ordered some NLS pellets, so they'll be getting the good stuff soon!

I wish it was just a few too many cheese burgers! But these are definitely holes.

I've upped my water changes- with a little help from the canister filter hose that slipped its bracket! Staying off the frozen brine shrimp, and sticking to some flake foods. Going to hunt for some more medication tomorrow.

They're still eating well and not lethargic, so that seems promising.

What most don't realize about frozen brine shrimp is that even tho it is low in nutritional value, it is a good source of roughage to help clean out the digestive tract of the fish. We are so hung up on high protein foods but forget that that it is rough on the digestion for the fish. ( Think about the last time you ate a big steak for dinner with no veggies or roughage with it. How was your next morning's bathroom experience? ) I use frozen brine as a last meal of the day so that the fish uses it for "pooping duty" while not needing the high energy for the day's activity. I'd suggest you keep feeding it as part of the daily ritual but not as the main meal. Variety is what is most important to keep the fish healthy.

 

[WindSwept]

Ah I see! Thanks Andy!! Picked up some NLS pellets- but no luck finding plain metronidazole.

Can General Cure be mixed in with their food?

I'm not sure what a good ratio of GC to pellet would be- not terribly much info out there on the concept either.

 

[Andy Sager]

Ah I see! Thanks Andy!! Picked up some NLS pellets- but no luck finding plain metronidazole.

Can General Cure be mixed in with their food?

I'm not sure what a good ratio of GC to pellet would be- not terribly much info out there on the concept either.

To my knowledge, General Cure is not good to add to the food. Might be because of the Prazi in it? That's just my guess. If the fish is eating, it might just be extruding the dead worms out of it's gut which was the white feces. I'd feed the fish and see if the feces returns to a normal color. If so, no need to remedicate. What you can do is a full treatment of Kanamycin ( Kanaplex) which will kill off any secondary bacterial infections inside the fish caused by the worms.
On a side note, I googled "medicated fish food" and found an article from Hikari about making your own medicated fish foods. You might want to check that out: How To Make Your Own Medicated Feed | Hikari Sales USA
It has some very important information in it regarding PROPER use of medicated foods. That search gave me a number of places to buy medicated foods as well so if that's the route you choose, there's some options for you.
On another side note : If the hole is not getting worse or more are developing, it takes time for the holes to heal. Sometimes months so I wouldn't be too quick to keep the fish medicated. IF the problem was in fact dietary, this too takes time to heal and correct. Good environments, good diets and proper tank maintenance will help the fish heal better than anything else.

 

[WindSwept]

Thanks again Andy!

The holes don't seem to have changed size at all. Will they heal over? Another article I was reading said the scarring would be permanent.

 

[Andy Sager]

Thanks again Andy!

The holes don't seem to have changed size at all. Will they heal over? Another article I was reading said the scarring would be permanent.

I think it really depends on what caused the issue whether it's permanent or not. I've seen fish with extreme erosion caused by diet that healed up a year later under the best conditions and diet. In other cases, I've seen fish with holes that just color over leaving the pits on the fish but you have to really look to see them. So there is no way to tell how your fish are going to heal. As long as it's not getting worse, that's a positive direction.

 

[coralbandit]

That is great link Andy!
I miss grain alcohol up here in the north and use just regular vodka to mix my prazi.
Most get turned off as soon as you say mix with vodka(190 grain YEA BABY!!)
Andy mentioned in the beginning that HITH is believed to be associated with vitamin deficiency ?
Why not try adding vits to your fishes food.
A lot safer and maybe more practical(as a real solution) for the issue IMO.

I know of several who have used this product for their fishes eye issue and it worked well according to them.

This product is the marine "cure" for HITH/HLLE.
Good luck!
Thanks again Andy for info!

 

[Andy Sager]

That is great link Andy!
I miss grain alcohol up here in the north and use just regular vodka to mix my prazi.
Most get turned off as soon as you say mix with vodka(190 grain YEA BABY!!)
Andy mentioned in the beginning that HITH is believed to be associated with vitamin deficiency ?
Why not try adding vits to your fishes food.
A lot safer and maybe more practical(as a real solution) for the issue IMO.

I know of several who have used this product for their fishes eye issue and it worked well according to them.

This product is the marine "cure" for HITH/HLLE.
Good luck!
Thanks again Andy for info!

Just to clarify, Vitamin deficiency is one of the believed causes of HITH but not the only one. Hexamita is a bug inside the fish and stress seems to activate it to cause the condition. Usually, poor water quality starts that process and why HITH is usually seen in larger fish in smaller tanks and or tanks with inadequate filtration or water chemistry. The OP claimed the water was good so if that's so, you need to dig further to find another possible cause which was where the vitamin issue came in. That said, fish living in poor conditions can definitely use some vitamin help after the conditions are cleaned up to help boost their immune system.
Yeah, I gripe about the internet sometimes but every once in awhile, I find a "Gem" like that article. ( But I still like my books better. )

Glad it helped