Clamped discus gill

[TomCarter13]

The temp is kept at 29-30C at all times. I don't think the temp is effecting ammonia. Before i put the formalin (by Wunder) in the DT, the aquarium was fully cycled with the same readings as i said before except ammonia was at 0ppm.

The tap water is at 0ppm for everything except pH is at 6.8-7.0.

Something is telling me it is the ammonia just because of the way the fish act when it is present.


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[Delapool]

The temp is kept at 29-30C at all times. I don't think the temp is effecting ammonia. Before i put the formalin (by Wunder) in the DT, the aquarium was fully cycled with the same readings as i said before except ammonia was at 0ppm.

The tap water is at 0ppm for everything except pH is at 6.8-7.0.

Something is telling me it is the ammonia just because of the way the fish act when it is present.


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No worries, always nice to have a cause sorted. Increasing temp will convert more ammonium to more harmful ammonia - will see if I can find a link.

 

[TomCarter13]

Yeah i know what you're saying and i don't mean to sound rude and defensive but i have kept another discus tank in the past at the same temp as this aquarium with no ammonia. The tank i have is new and it was only fully cycled 2 weeks ago until i added the formalin which dropped the nitrate to 0 until the ammonia started to rise again like the beginning of cycling and thats when all the fish started showing distress.


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[Delapool]

No, no - it's quite useful post. Really wish I had that link but down south away from desktop. I've always thought the ammonium vs ammonia is an average guide. Some fish will be more sensitive, others less so. I've also found that a stressed fish (for whatever reason) can't cope as well with additional stress. It seems logical but sometimes we are hard pressed to find one stress cause, let alone any more. So (just as an example) maybe the ammonia level would not normally be a problem but with new fish under maybe some transport or mild parasite stress it adds up as too much.

What your saying could well be right and is such an easy fix with extra water changes / prime dosing.

 

[treemanone2003]

I agree totally with Delapool in regards that the low pH/ammo combo shouldn't be of a concern when it's that low. In the aspect of temp playing a role I apologize that I don't have an answer and I'm not quite sure it will but it does seem plausible. I'll go hit the books and try to look for some sound info on that. The only thing I can think of in the aspect of ammonia burn, you haven't mentioned other signs (cloudy eyes, ratty looking fins) commonly associated with ammo burn. Another thought I've ruled out ( because of your pH range) is alkalosis/acidosis. This is either too high/low ph, of 9.0/5.0 respectively. You also haven't mentioned pH buffers (which I, and many others believe are bs, quite unstable, and are more harm than good) but many Discus keepers believe the use of these could create an acid "burn" when trying to lower pH and create the "ultimate" conditions for their tanks.

Hope this helps a bit and hopefully we can get to the bottom of this at some point.


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[Delapool]

FYI on the relationship between ph : ammonia / ammonium and temp. Unfortunately doesn't go below a ph of 7.

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f12/your-guide-to-ammonia-toxicity-159994.html

 

[TomCarter13]

Thanks for your replies i don't use any pH buffers, it is naturally at 6.5 as of the driftwood i think.

I just thought that the ammonia vould be irritating the fish? Because i don't really understand how they have gill flukes? They all eat, they are all aggressive to each other, they are all amazing colours, they are always out and about swimming. The thing is when i unboxed the fish from shipping, the bags were seriously filled with muck and smelt like horrible sulpher. I thought that maybe that one fish had a little but if irritation yo the ammonia built up in the bag. But instead if just waiting and doing water changes, i jumped the gun and quickly dumped in formalin which killed off my bacteria and caused ammonia to rise which as soon as that happened the fish started to do the same gill thing.


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[TomCarter13]

If it is gill flukes then i dont understand what i'm doing wrong? I am doing 75% water changes aswell as dosing the QT with prazi and they don't seem doing much better? The tank is cycling with ammonia in the tank so that's why i feel the ammonia may be irritating them and it may not be flukes? I just want my fish to be healthy and ok and i feel like i don't really know what to do anymore and it is very frustrating ?


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[Delapool]

It's early morning here and pre-coffee so maybe I'm missing something.

Ammonia being or not being an issue is fine - we have a theory on cause. I think that's really good. I'd be doing daily water changes to bring ammonia down plus dosing with prime or ammo lock to detoxify it. This should reduce ammonia back to 0 or 0.25 and we can see if that makes a difference.

Edit - sorry, re-reading. Are you doing daily 75% water changes. Is the ammonia reading of 0.5 before or after the water change?

 

[TomCarter13]

Okay, i'll do daily 75% water changes aswell as dosing prime an if any changed happen then i'll be sure to notify you!

Thank you heaps especially for the information! I learn't something i didn't really know before which is cool


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[Delapool]

Good luck! Keep us posted.

Treemanone is the discus expert here so he may have some other questions/observations.

 

[TomCarter13]

Just did a 75% WC on the DT and the ammonia went down to 0ppm the nitrates stayed at 10ppm and the pH went up to 6.8. I think the pH went up because i did a very large water change than usual. I usually do a 50% wc and the pH stays around 6.4-6.5. Can ammonia build up after awhile of not doing much water changes either? I don't really no this as i have never had this weird problem happen to me before?


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[treemanone2003]

Good luck! Keep us posted.

Treemanone is the discus expert here so he may have some other questions/observations.

Thanks for the kind words Delapool. Just trying to earn my keep.

Just did a 75% WC on the DT and the ammonia went down to 0ppm the nitrates stayed at 10ppm and the pH went up to 6.8. I think the pH went up because i did a very large water change than usual. I usually do a 50% wc and the pH stays around 6.4-6.5. Can ammonia build up after awhile of not doing much water changes either? I don't really no this as i have never had this weird problem happen to me before?


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Ammonia buildup can and will happen over time without water changes. Ammonia is a direct byproduct of fish waste among other things.


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[TomCarter13]

Hi again,

So since the 2nd of jan, i moved my discus back to the DT because the QT began to get high ammonia and nitrite.One of the four discus is still doing pretty good. Breathing fine, using gills fine, he eats everything i give him, flakes, pellets, frozen bloodworm and brine shrimp. The other three are doing okay, they still eat but only the frozen bloodworm and brine shrimp. But, the other three still occasionally clamp there gill, scratch, and twitch their fins. Although i do have sand for substrate in my DT and some times they get sand on their pectoral and anal fins so they kind of twitch to get it off.

It all seems like skin and gill flukes to me, but i don't understand as apart from those symptoms the fish are great?? They are always together, they are still eating, the colours are still amazing, their fins are up, they peck around at each other... And some much more that make them seem so healthy? It's so frustrating not really knowing for sure what it is? Because what i have learn't is that i should not assume because although it might seem like gill flukes it might not be..

So i have discovered a few more things that could be irritating them.

The first thing i have noticed is i kind if have and unstable pH? Not sure why? Never had this problem and i thought i didn't but i think i do??

Second thing is that there are some small white parasite looking things floating around my aquarium, they came in from my outside tap when i used it to refill the DT whilst the discus were still in the QT. Could these be irritating them? I would hate for the very small ones to be hooking onto the fishes gills.

I have however noticed improvements in gill functioning. Yesterday i did another wc and the three discus i was worried about started to breath normally again. The eruption leopard which is the one i am really concerned about even started breathing normally and he still is now but occasionally slightly closes a gill. So i find that actually a great improvement so far.

I'm thinking of doing another 50% wc today to see if it will help them again even more??

Any advise then please let me know!


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[TomCarter13]

So i just did another i would say 65% water change and i took out the driftwood. I thought it might help with the pH and if it had any flukes or fluke eggs on hanging on the wood than i would have reduced the fluke population a bit at the moment i am willing to try anything!


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[Jessiicaxrosex3]

I feel like discus get sick for any reason and no reason at all. My fish have since turned very dark and all hiding and nothing has changed in my daily routine with them to cause it. Crossing my fingers for both of our tanks.

 

[TomCarter13]

Yeah! That is something i have definitely noticed about discus. Unfortunately these fish are prone to the more difficult diseases to deal with like parasites internally and externally. Something i have noticed that causes alot of problems is the fish being stressed. Stress on discus really knocks their immune system down and unfortunately for me every single time i introduce a new discus, it will be stressed from shipping or something that has gone wrong in the aquarium like a small ammonia spike or a small change in pH and they really don't like it much.

I'm sorry about your tank and i definitely understand any frustration you are feeling. But, i'm sure they will come right have you noticed anything else about the fish? Do you want to share some pictures of them?
I know this might not sound very good to you but i am glad someone else is having random problems too.


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[TomCarter13]

Hey again everyone!! I have an idea on what i can do!

I was thinking that i move all of the discus into the QT again and do a good treatment of prazi in that tank. Then, in the DT i do a 100% water change and remove all the plants and driftwood etc and do a massive clean and do that for about a week (but i wont clean out 100% everyday because i don't want to damage the BB again) and see what happens.

Does anyone think this is a good idea?


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[Jessiicaxrosex3]

Idk how i feel about prazipro. I treated my other discus tank back in the day and two discus lost their slime coats and passed. Maybe someone has a better method to it or i just had bad luck

 

[Jessiicaxrosex3]

For days they were just sitting on the bottom of the tank and all turned very dark in color. Ive been doing big wc and raised the temp a little, and now everyone is eating again. Very strange little fish.