Constipated, dropsy, or just fat?

[jlk]

JLK, If your fish are routinely treated for parasites, why would there be any? As I understand it these fish have never been treated for both internal bacteria or parasites. That's the first thing I do!

Treat the known killers, bacteria in particular as it can accumulate in a tank without new stock or plant additions. Faecal matter, bacteria heaven.

Why do you make it a routine? Same reasons as me, safety. Peace of mind. The best solution to ensure livestock health? You can't see these things so kill them as a matter of fact, then you know what it isn't.

I sort of agree with aqua chem, everybody rates MgSO4, I have never used it other prescriptions have dealt with everything. It is in my mind unnecessary however it has known medical properties, with cautious use, not for soft water species.

I address flukes which are the largest issue in goldfish health. Praziquantel has very limited scope in addressing internal issues. It's a prophylactic measure to assure flukes will not be aspect to consider in fish health issues.

I do not prophylacticaly treat for potential bacterial issues as this is pointless and will only create greater issues in the event antibiotics are actually necessitated. Antibiotics, IMO, are misused and abused already.

I am not quite sure what you mean by 'everybody rates MgSO4'?

 

[jlk]

Epsom salt is only a diarrhetic if ingested via osmosis. If you just add it to water, it may help to draw out retained fluids, but you're not actually doing anything to address the problem at hand.

The issue here is, we actually do not know what the real problem is.

 

[pip walters]

Right I'll try the Epsom salts just to be sure, can Epsom also help with worms at all?

I'll have to order something or either pick some up on Sunday, Friday I'm at college and on Saturday I'm at a powerlifting competition, as for meds, are they reliant on brands? Or could I get any and it should do the trick?

Also, what's the youngest age a fish can breed, my two black moores are chasing and bumping, one has gotten fatter and the other one doing the chasing does look like he's getting these white tubercles that you've both been talking about. There both eating and laying perfectly fine waste, and are active and seem happy. I haven't had them ages though, maybe half a year tops, if that.

Ps. Jamie, I've seen pictures of your fishes on Flickr, bloody gorgeous!

Well, there you go.... if your black moors are at it, likelihood is, conditions have been perfect for development of spawn. Get that fish back in the tank and see if that black moor male shows an interest (it'll give the female black moor a rest too.

I have bred goldfish at 9 months old, although they do mature earlier when raised in intensively fed warm water systems. This is because goldfish are actually warm water finfish, so mature more quickly at the higher end of their temperature tolerances.

 

[jlk]

The fish is simply gravid - that overhead picture clearly shows the 'bulge' is to one side (the fish's right side' and to the rear of the abdomen, which is always the case with a goldfish that is ready for spawning - the eggs begin to swell as they hydrate prior to them being released to the lower ovary just before spawning.

Now, if the eggs are released to the lower ovary, but no spawning takes place, then the eggs will rot inside the fish and cause septicaemia and ultimately death - but don't panic as this is not always the case. You have a couple of options here

Was the fish in a tank with others? If so, are there any males? Males in spawning condition should display white tubercles on the head and gills, sometimes also on the pectoral fins and even the body... even if not in full condition, they will often feel 'rough' to the touch.... they also lose much of the body slime prior to spawning. If you have males, you can put her back and spawning may occur. Goldfish may spawn once every few days until all eggs are released.

Option 2 is to wait until the eggs are dropped into the lower ovary - indicated by a very soft abdomen - hold the fish gently upside down and mover her from side to side... if the 'buldge' flops from side to side, then it is likely that spawning is imminent. At this point, a gentle squeeze, pushing the fore finger and thumb either side of the fish, back towards the vent area, will expel some eggs. If eggs flow freely, then it is best to 'strip' the fish like this to remove as many as you can.

Often, if spawning is imminent, eggs will actually fall from the fish when it is lifted from the water.

If you can hold the fish upside down and take a good photo, I may be able to advise you more on whether she is ready for this treatment.

My best advice though, would be to place he back in the original tank where she has more room (to reduce stress) and watch the other fish to see if any start to 'chase' her... these will be the males.

There are several triggers to the spawning process and if these are not all in place, then ... and this is the good news.... the eggs will just be re-absorbed by the fish so as not to waste the immense effort she has put into developing her eggs. She will be carrying several 'year classes' of eggs ready for development when conditions are right, so once her present gravid state passes, the process of developing the next batch (known as vitellogenesis) will begin.

Constipation is normally indicated by colourless trailing faeces - often mistaken for intestinal worms

Hope that helps

While I agree the fish fish is likely gravid, as it has been 6+ weeks of being in the same condition and she has not reabsorbed eggs, it's very likely she is egg bound.

Manually stripping an egg bound fish is strongly NOT recommended for the inexperienced. One can cause lethal internal damage as well as releasing the bacteria from the rotting eggs and resulting in sepsis.

Inappropriate and potentially lethal advice for someone that is not familiar with fish anatomy or even what a gravid fish should feel like. Epsom salt baths and an antibiotic medicated food as I suggested previously unless an aquatic vet is an option.

 

[pip walters]

Incidentally, live or frozen daphnia have always been recommended to alleviate symptoms of constipation !

 

[pip walters]

While I agree the fish fish is likely gravid, as it has been 6+ weeks of being in the same condition and she has not reabsorbed eggs, it's very likely she is egg bound.

Manually stripping an egg bound fish is strongly NOT recommended for the inexperienced. One can cause lethal internal damage as well as releasing the bacteria from the rotting eggs and resulting in sepsis.

Inappropriate and potentially lethal advice for someone that is not familiar with fish anatomy or even what a gravid fish should feel like. Epsom salt baths and an antibiotic medicated food as I suggested previously unless an aquatic vet is an option.

If the fish is egg bound, then she is gonna die. The condition I described when the eggs have been released to the lower ovary and no spawning takes place IS egg binding!

A gravid goldfish in a pond holds its spawn like this posters fish all through the winter in colder climates, prior to spawning in the spring.

I am not sure why you say I am inexperienced, but I studied for 4 years, lectured to students on Cyprinid farming for two years and spent 15 years breeding carp, goldfish, koi, tench, crucian carp, roach, bream, chub and barbel...all hand stripped after inducement by gonadotrophic hormone injection. I have spawned fish as small as inches in this way

What exactly are epsom salts and antibiotics going to do for a otherwise apparently healthy gravid female goldfish?

 

[jlk]

Incidentally, live or frozen daphnia have always been recommended to alleviate symptoms of constipation !

An egg bound fish will have little to no waste (or very odd waste) anyway so we do not know if the lack of waste is the result of being egg bound, is the result of actual constipation or if there is another issue occurring here (worms, tumor, something else).

Personally, I prefer brine shrimp over daphnia for constipation if one wishes to try this route. Brine shrimp is also has much greater accessibility for most people.

 

[pip walters]

An egg bound fish will have little to no waste (or very odd waste) anyway so we do not know if the lack of waste is the result of being egg bound, is the result of actual constipation or if there is another issue occurring here (worms, tumor, something else).

Personally, I prefer brine shrimp over daphnia for constipation if one wishes to try this route. Brine shrimp is also has much greater accessibility for most people.

Perhaps you could explain exactly what egg binding is and how this effects the fish's digestive system?

 

[jlk]

If the fish is egg bound, then she is gonna die. The condition I described when the eggs have been released to the lower ovary and no spawning takes place IS egg binding!

A gravid goldfish in a pond holds its spawn like this posters fish all through the winter in colder climates, prior to spawning in the spring.

I am not sure why you say I am inexperienced, but I studied for 4 years, lectured to students on Cyprinid farming for two years and spent 15 years breeding carp, goldfish, koi, tench, crucian carp, roach, bream, chub and barbel...all hand stripped after inducement by gonadotrophic hormone injection.

What exactly are epsom alts and antibiotics going to do for a otherwise apparently healthy gravid female goldfish?

Recommending stripping a fish to the inexperienced OP who is not able yet to distinguish if his or her fish is even gravid is not only poor advice advice but potentially lethal advice.

I was not referring to you being inexperienced , however, I will draw issue with the information and advice you proffer. You stated previously that you do not personally own or keep fish but you have 'retail' and 'fish farm' experience. I have to take anything you offer with a grain of salt as you do not have any personal experience owning, maintaining, raising, breeding, feeding etc your OWN fish.

I make equal comparison to raising a child or riding a horse- you can spend every day for the rest of your life working around them, studying them at college, believing you are an 'expert' in these manners yet until you face the hour to hour, day to day realities of raising your own child or actually fully capable of getting on a horse bare back with just a lead rope and clearing a grand prix in style, any advice offered by such 'experienced' individuals is one sided and very peripheral at best.

 

[J.Mcpeak]

I address flukes which are the largest issue in goldfish health. Praziquantel has very limited scope in addressing internal issues. It's a prophylactic measure to assure flukes will not be aspect to consider in fish health issues.

I do not prophylacticaly treat for potential bacterial issues as this is pointless and will only create greater issues in the event antibiotics are actually necessitated. Antibiotics, IMO, are misused and abused already.

I am not quite sure what you mean by 'everybody rates MgSO4'?

Praziquantel is a known anthelminthic in combating species of Cestoda.

Pip, you know nuffing (London accent)

Egg bind will cause the ovaries to rot and decompose, consequently killing the mother, the only way to possibly cure it, introduce a male which releases hormones that may or may not induce/initiate a spawning response from the gravid female.

This is a common occurrence in fish which do not often breed in aquarium conditions.

P.s. Pip I'm only joking, but I guess you already know that!

 

[J.Mcpeak]

The fish is simply gravid - that overhead picture clearly shows the 'bulge' is to one side (the fish's right side' and to the rear of the abdomen, which is always the case with a goldfish that is ready for spawning - the eggs begin to swell as they hydrate prior to them being released to the lower ovary just before spawning.

Now, if the eggs are released to the lower ovary, but no spawning takes place, then the eggs will rot inside the fish and cause septicaemia and ultimately death - but don't panic as this is not always the case. You have a couple of options here

Was the fish in a tank with others? If so, are there any males? Males in spawning condition should display white tubercles on the head and gills, sometimes also on the pectoral fins and even the body... even if not in full condition, they will often feel 'rough' to the touch.... they also lose much of the body slime prior to spawning. If you have males, you can put her back and spawning may occur. Goldfish may spawn once every few days until all eggs are released.

Option 2 is to wait until the eggs are dropped into the lower ovary - indicated by a very soft abdomen - hold the fish gently upside down and mover her from side to side... if the 'buldge' flops from side to side, then it is likely that spawning is imminent. At this point, a gentle squeeze, pushing the fore finger and thumb either side of the fish, back towards the vent area, will expel some eggs. If eggs flow freely, then it is best to 'strip' the fish like this to remove as many as you can.

Often, if spawning is imminent, eggs will actually fall from the fish when it is lifted from the water.

If you can hold the fish upside down and take a good photo, I may be able to advise you more on whether she is ready for this treatment.

My best advice though, would be to place he back in the original tank where she has more room (to reduce stress) and watch the other fish to see if any start to 'chase' her... these will be the males.

There are several triggers to the spawning process and if these are not all in place, then ... and this is the good news.... the eggs will just be re-absorbed by the fish so as not to waste the immense effort she has put into developing her eggs. She will be carrying several 'year classes' of eggs ready for development when conditions are right, so once her present gravid state passes, the process of developing the next batch (known as vitellogenesis) will begin.

Constipation is normally indicated by colourless trailing faeces - often mistaken for intestinal worms

Hope that helps

What about the comet? Another fish in this post? Same thing twice, that's why I went with worms.

Confirm daphnia. High fibre diet, gets us all!

 

[J.Mcpeak]

I am not quite sure what you mean by 'everybody rates MgSO4'?

What I mean, everybody promotes MgSO4 as a wonder drug cure all for fish when in fact it can cause more harm than good if incorrectly administered at too high a dose and/or too fast a change in water parameters. This alone is potentially lethal for some (and all) species of fish.

A headache pill taken for no headache will have no effect, it will be passed as waste. The same goes for using antibiotics on a fish, if I have one sick fish in a tank, I treat the water course with no adverse effects on the healthy specimens and in most cases a recovery of the sick individual.

 

[J.Mcpeak]

To pip,
The (I assumed) male (comet) appeared to be chasing the female (suspect bind) both exhibit similar symptoms of distension. Lack of faecal matter can only be confirmed from isolated specimen(F,egg bind). Given your experience what would you suggest at this point?

 

[pip walters]

Recommending stripping a fish to the inexperienced OP who is not able yet to distinguish if his or her fish is even gravid is not only poor advice advice but potentially lethal advice.

I was not referring to you being inexperienced , however, I will draw issue with the information and advice you proffer. You stated previously that you do not personally own or keep fish but you have 'retail' and 'fish farm' experience. I have to take anything you offer with a grain of salt as you do not have any personal experience owning, maintaining, raising, breeding, feeding etc your OWN fish.

I make equal comparison to raising a child or riding a horse- you can spend every day for the rest of your life working around them, studying them at college, believing you are an 'expert' in these manners yet until you face the hour to hour, day to day realities of raising your own child or actually fully capable of getting on a horse bare back with just a lead rope and clearing a grand prix in style, any advice offered by such 'experienced' individuals is one sided and very peripheral at best.

What a total load of rubbish

I HAVE the experience, as I described. I have hand stripped thousands of fish - the fact that they are not my own is totally irrelevant, they were all treated as if they were my own. How do you know I have no experience of owning, maintaining, breeding and feeding my own fish? (which, incidentally, I do). I also maintain over 200 holding aquaria every day as my current career.

I offered advice to the poster on establishing the gravidity of the fish and offered POSSIBLE options that could be pursued. I am quite sure that the poster is quite capable of deciding whether or not they should pursue any of these options based on their own common sense and confidence.

I have not suggested that I am an 'expert', (no such thing exists in the vast subject of aquatics), but on this subject, I think I am closer to it than most hobbyists. I have merely offered knowledge based on my own learnings and hands-on experience. I even selected words such as 'gently' when describing the process of handling the fish.

If you are going to 'draw issue' then at least get your facts straight and don't make assumptions about a poster. At least offer reasoned argument as 'potentially lethal' doesn't really cut it - as I say I have hand stripped fish for many years and certainly don't recall killing a fish in the process... there are thousands of fish farmers that do the same! I find your 'pinch of salt' and 'one sided and 'peripheral' comments somewhat insulting when I am offering reasoned advice based on years of experience.

I don't believe one needs to own an aquarium to have a good knowledge of the requirements and the biology of fish in relation to being kept in artificial conditions - indeed I know many respected 'experts' who do not actually keep fish.

Hardly a response I would expect from a moderator... not that has any standing. Try thinking 'outide the box' now and again and evolve with your hobby

 

[pip walters]

I address flukes which are the largest issue in goldfish health. Praziquantel has very limited scope in addressing internal issues. It's a prophylactic measure to assure flukes will not be aspect to consider in fish health issues.

Praziquantel can be used for intestinal worms when incorporated into the diet.... yes I have experience of this too.

 

[J.Mcpeak]

He said grain not pinch

Get it right

 

[pip walters]

What about the comet? Another fish in this post? Same thing twice, that's why I went with worms.

Confirm daphnia. High fibre diet, gets us all!

Thanks for the humour mate

The other comet... wasn't it chasing the main one? Often, two females will go through the spawning ritual.... when goldfish are breeding in ponds etc, many fish will 'chase' and spawn en masse. It is not unusual for female only groups to go through the chasing routine and actually release their spawn.... it prevents egg binding

The other comet could be female too.
I would suggest that a fish that has been kept in an aquarium for six years, fed mainly on flake, would be unlikely to contract intestinal worms.

 

[pip walters]

He said grain not pinch

Get it right

Oh yeah. I wonder if it was grain of epsom salt? Good for anal problems apparently

 

[aqua_chem]

Oh yeah. I wonder if it was grain of epsom salt? Good for anal problems apparently

I'll go ahead and file this under "ways to ruin thanksgiving dinner".

 

[pip walters]

I'll go ahead and file this under "ways to ruin thanksgiving dinner".

My apologies sir