Fish died as soon as I put them in the tank

[threnjen]

http://www.ratemyfishtank.com/articles/107
(No phd)


Assessment of pH shock as a method for controlling sulfide and methane formation in pressure main sewer systems

Measuring pH in Freshwater Aquariums

Water chemistry problems

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Posting random articles by random people that repeat the .3 thing does not just make it true. Anyone can repeat anything. I could post plenty of articles about ph shock as a myth written by random people on the Internet.
I'm not sure what the one science paper on here had to do with the topic besides containing the phrase "ph shock" as it is a deliberately extreme example.

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[threnjen]

I haven't read every post. I am glad to see the discussion of osmotic shock. I do recall an article I read a number of years ago claiming that pH shock was a myth. So, I will ask the same question here, does anyone have a link to scientific documentation on the existence of pH shock? In the past when I looked I wasn't able to fins any.
Drip acclimation can be a sure way to kill your fish. Perhaps not when you pick them up at the LFS, but in fish that have been trans shipped and have spent a day or more in the bag. As soon as you open the bag the excess CO2 escapes from the bag and the water, quickly raising the pH. This in itself is not an issue, but the ammonium becomes toxic ammonia.
One of the other forums I frequent had an individual who did some testing by swapping a fish abck and forth between water with a pH of 5 or so and 8 (if I remember correctly). He used RO water so TDS wouldn't be a factor and no ill effect was observed.

Sorry for the messy post, it's hard to select just a section with my phone. The thing about co2 offgassing from a shipping bag is VERY interesting. I'd like to look into that more.

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[threnjen]

I also wish any of our discussion solved the op's problem I'm so sorry you keep losing the denisons. They aren't cheap either.

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[J.Mcpeak]

Posting random articles by random people that repeat the .3 thing does not just make it true. Anyone can repeat anything. I could post plenty of articles about ph shock as a myth written by random people on the Internet.
I'm not sure what the one science paper on here had to do with the topic besides containing the phrase "ph shock" as it is a deliberately extreme example.

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It is evidence of existence.

Hey Jen, that collection of articles was in response to bills question, please provide some proof. That is online proof. Aimed at bill.

If you read it you will have noticed it doesn't push the .3 thing.
One article states .2 one states .3 one states .5
The articles each come from different sources and are widely accepted by the fishing community for the information they contain to be useful.

So please take the time to read these before assuming anything. Merely glossing over an article looking for key phrases isn't really acceptable in my mind.

(Ps, I'm not looking to agitate you, I'm not trolling you, I've expressed these thoughts off line with you. I actually quite like a more involved debate on key issues with like minded individuals. Please confirm that for the benefit of others.)

The pH thing pops up everywhere, I've been reading about it for years and years. It is engrained in the field. Those "random articles" have been a major influence on my fish keeping path. My mate said he said she said is not information I would be happy to use on a whim. The point 3 seems to be accepted universally, thoughts on its relevance are not as old as the theory. I trust what I say and the information I use based on my experiences in its practical use. Lots of things have come crashing together here to create a somewhat confusing scenario.

You can find proof online to confirm any thing you want, if you look you can find the answer you want to hear.

 

[J.Mcpeak]

? Did you have something you actually want to say? You know I don't need a gh/kh/ph primer. How was that a response to my post.
There isn't anything in this link that provides any sort of refutation to osmotic shock do I am not even sure what you are trying to convey with it as a response to my post.

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"What is the importance of testing for PH?

Generally, despite popular opinion, KH is more important a regular test than pH since it predicts pH instability.
This said, test for pH is important before and after water changes, this includes the new water to be added after a water change so as to prevent pH shock by adding water to an aquarium that could change the aquarium pH more than .5 either direction on the logarithmic pH scale.
Reference: Aquarium, Reasons and Methods for Water Changes

Many planted aquarium keepers, often run air stones at night to equalize oxygen and COs since plants cease production of O2, HOWEVER it is worthy of note that an air stone can drive off enough CO2, that the pH can climb considerably at night.
So it is important to test pH evening and morning and adjust your air stone accordingly to prevent to drastic a pH swing.
BTW, the reason for this is CO2 in the water can produce carbonic acid, that will naturally lower pH, but when driven off by nightly increases in aeration, this can result in pH swings, generally in smaller aquaria.

As well, pH should be checked when problems occur in your aquarium such as fish sick, then compare this pH to past tests (which it is best to record all aquarium tests in a journal)."

------------------------------------------------------------------
I know you are not dumb to water science, the text is there, the whole page may be useful to other people, I thought about pasting just this section but the whole page is there for use. (Evidence of existence)
You really don't need to defend your knowledge or impress upon me your skill level, the reason we can engage in such debate is because you know enough to count.

 

[Katrinag]

I also wish any of our discussion solved the op's problem I'm so sorry you keep losing the denisons. They aren't cheap either.

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Thank you - I called a better LFS near me (not where I bought them) and told them what happened. They really couldn't say why this happened but said they are a sensitive and high oxygen fish. I really still have no clue what I should do if I want to try this again. I did not buy it from the better place because they did not have stock.

 

[Delapool]

Thank you - I called a better LFS near me (not where I bought them) and told them what happened. They really couldn't say why this happened but said they are a sensitive and high oxygen fish. I really still have no clue what I should do if I want to try this again. I did not buy it from the better place because they did not have stock.

Did you take any other readings besides ph? And was the tank water different to the mixed bag (? whichever the drip method was done in) - any difference? (how much tank and bag water ratio would you say)?

I should note the bottles of ph up and down I have note similar restrictions on how much ph should be changed in 24hrs but doesn't say specifically ph would be the problem. I guess ph changing would also make certain elements more mobile/immobile (eg the aluminium in the article I posted) but I always thought this was minor and tank dechlorinaters may detoxify heavy metals anyways.

I measured the tap temp here. It was 22C (back to warm weather) whereas tank is 26C. Did the water change and the heater never switched on. As usual the rosy barbs love it, the platies I remain concerned about. But I assume for the OP temp would not be an issue when doing drip method.

I guess we make progress? I mean we all think it is changing water conditions shocking somehow rather than say rapid infection, stray electricity, poisons (somehow) or uncycled tank?

 

[Katrinag]

Update ! Fish died as soon as I put them in the tank

HI, AA friends. I have good news. I have successfully acclimated 5 Denison barbs into my tank. I did change some things so I don't know what in particular worked but just happy it did.

Lowered the temp to 76 from 78 (lfs is at 76)
moved my filter output closer to the surface to give more water movement.
moved my koralia 240 to get better water movement
turned the lights off my tank
drip acclimation for only 30 minutes
crossed my fingers

It's been almost a week and they seem very happy. I will try and get a better photo. Yea!

 

[pip walters]

HI, AA friends. I have good news. I have successfully acclimated 5 Denison barbs into my tank. I did change some things so I don't know what in particular worked but just happy it did.

Lowered the temp to 76 from 78 (lfs is at 76)
moved my filter output closer to the surface to give more water movement.
moved my koralia 240 to get better water movement
turned the lights off my tank
drip acclimation for only 30 minutes
crossed my fingers

It's been almost a week and they seem very happy. I will try and get a better photo. Yea!

Excellent.

Had the problem with siamese algae eaters this week.... first time it has happened with that species!

 

[J.Mcpeak]

Well it seems it ended well!
Hope these ones do well for you.

 

[J.Mcpeak]

Now every one is happy (fish alive in a tank)

(I'd like to clear this up,

Over 24 hours, (based on typical surface readings)
Lakes around the world record pH swings from around 6-6.5 up to 8.5-9, with the extremities being the exception not the norm. (7.5-8.5 majority)

In streams and rivers, recorded swings are from between 0.2 to 0.5 pH, with 0.3 being the norm or more correctly the majority.

Rivers and streams record annual fluctuations in line with lakes daily ranges, this occurs over an annual time frame, probably in accordance with the rainy/dry seasons, again extremities are the exception.
Some rivers are outside of these ranges annually and contain fish that even experts choose to leave in the river, some amazon rivers are in the 4.0ph range.

FRESH WATER FISH ONLY.
The majority of fish available in the trade are stream/river fish with some small percentage of all available fish being lake species.)

I have made sure this information is as accurate as possible.

 

[pip walters]

(I'd like to clear this up,

Over 24 hours, (based on typical surface readings)
Lakes around the world record pH swings from around 6-6.5 up to 8.5-9, with the extremities being the exception not the norm. (7.5-8.5 majority)

In streams and rivers, recorded swings are from between 0.2 to 0.5 pH, with 0.3 being the norm or more correctly the majority.

Rivers and streams record annual fluctuations in line with lakes daily ranges, this occurs over an annual time frame, probably in accordance with the rainy/dry seasons, again extremities are the exception.
Some rivers are outside of these ranges annually and contain fish that even experts choose to leave in the river, some amazon rivers are in the 4.0ph range.

FRESH WATER FISH ONLY.
The majority of fish available in the trade are stream/river fish with some small percentage of all available fish being lake species.)

I have made sure this information is as accurate as possible.

This is correct sir, apart from the extremities are not necessarily the exception..... pH can be as low as 5ppm in early morning in lowland lakes here in the uk, rising to 9 in late afternoon on a daily basis during summer. It all depends on plant/algae production, temperature and of course animal bioload, or more acurately, biochemical oxygen demand (BOD).

 

[J.Mcpeak]

But it depends on the specific lake, they are all different. (Yes some lakes and some rivers have a unique bio system that makes some people question the possibility of life existing, yet it does, and what can survive, thrives)

One thing I'd like to know, some pond keepers syphon water from the top to avoid high pH water dropping down on fish at the lower level of the pond with a lower (towards neutral) pH. How does this work in a full size lake? Is the water uniformly equal in pH or does it fluctuate at a given depth towards neutral.

I know most tests conducted are surface type tests, electrode whatsits. Or real people dip a sonde, again though I think these are surface tests and not a full range of tests across the lake at varying depths, those that are get averaged out.
(Site a, is convenient, site b is a nice place for a sandwich)

Perhaps you can speak with an old colleague from your pond/lake days. (I assume your current employment doesn't deal with lakes but I know you have the knowledge or know somebody that does)