Fish died as soon as I put them in the tank

[pip walters]

I have not read the last couple of pages, just logged on, but I just came from a LFS where the fish guy is a biology major at our local university. He happened to be chatting with a different customer about osmotic shock when I came in. I asked his opinion on pH shock being a myth, and he agreed wholeheartedly and said that his biology professors at the university teach that pH shock is a myth and is actually osmotic shock.

It's very "he said she said" but there's at least some other academic professional biologists out there who think the pH argument that is perpetuated by the hobby is not relevant.

Interesting. Osmosis is governed by the dissolved mineral salts in the water. Personally, I would be surprised if this could cause such instant effects as I and newfishmum have experienced, but if so I would expect to see it n species like cardinal tetras that may have been raised and transported in low mineral water ( RO). Also, why would it affect ony certain species (again, in my experience). I never saw this happen when receiving fish into the retail shop I worked in.... only since I have worked with newly imported. Also, it doesn't always happen even with those susceptible species. I am wondering if it is something to do with the pressure in an inflated bag and the use of pure oxygen.... but why only a few species? More research me thinks.

 

[pip walters]

Hi PIP. I started the original thread so I assume your question is for me. When I put the denison barbs in they darted around the tank then started to kinda jerk around then die. what I dont get is I would take them out and put them back into the container where I added my tank water over 2.5 hours and they would come back to life. The bags were filled with air. I still do not get what happened to them and would like to buy them again but dont want the same thing to happen.

Very strange. I haven't had the problem with denisons.... expensive fish too, so a hard decision whether to try them again.

 

[Hobgob]

Some of you are confused, to drip for five days! I've have said its ridiculous and impossible.

Not sure where that came from. Not from me. Hob gob I think? May be wrong (it's been a long week!)

I have never drip acclimated any of my fish. I have adjusted water prior to purchase and acclimated temp over 15-30 minutes. The process of adjusting the water from purchase point standard to my standard in a qt may take five days or five weeks. (There is a period of acclimation, not by the standard drip convention though)

The qt is almost the same as purchase point.

Pip, glad you arrived, you will know more, or maybe less
Cheeky! (That's for the canon/nikon quip)

So you adjust you temp in 15-30minutes? I thought the standard was 2f an hour?

 

[Delapool]

Very strange. I haven't had the problem with denisons.... expensive fish too, so a hard decision whether to try them again.

Maybe could try asking lfs if anyone else mentioned anything?

 

[J.Mcpeak]

Another +point for quarantine

So you adjust you temp in 15-30minutes? I thought the standard was 2f an hour?

The trick here is to set your stat low (min requirement for the sp. concerned), knowing it will be low in bagged fish, a degree or so is negligible and will equalise very quickly. I'm in Celsius land. (Also I transport fish normally in an ice box, sometimes with a heater or filter and sometimes without depending on fish) big fish go in an ice box, smaller fish stay bagged but are well insulated for the journey. (Transport method is important, if you run air con and set the bag in the footwell your T difference will be greater and a longer period will be necessary, use a thermometer at transition point) also it is possible to drive home uncomfortably warm with the heat setting on in the car (suitably tropical). So yes, I can and I do but only because a lot of thought went into the transport method.

Past the point of purchase, the fish is in my care.

 

[J.Mcpeak]

Yes, the heater is fine. I have 2 thermometers in the tank, 1 digital and 1 mercury style. I thought maybe the co2 was the issue. That is the only thing I could see what different but I think that may be a stretch.

Apparently this happens,
When sodium bicarbonate is added to water, it disassociates to sodium ions (Na+) and bicarbonate ions (HCO3-). In solution, carbon dioxide, carbonic acid, and bicarbonate are always in equilibrium with each other. If you change the concentration of one of them the other two will change to maintain the equilibrium.

 

[J.Mcpeak]

Interesting. Osmosis is governed by the dissolved mineral salts in the water. Personally, I would be surprised if this could cause such instant effects as I and newfishmum have experienced, but if so I would expect to see it n species like cardinal tetras that may have been raised and transported in low mineral water ( RO). Also, why would it affect ony certain species (again, in my experience). I never saw this happen when receiving fish into the retail shop I worked in.... only since I have worked with newly imported. Also, it doesn't always happen even with those susceptible species. I am wondering if it is something to do with the pressure in an inflated bag and the use of pure oxygen.... but why only a few species? More research me thinks.

Maybe it's the whole taxonomic grouping thing. They became a species in the genus because they are different. They got there own genus because they are different. Perhaps the grouping goes past colour form and somebody really studied each fish and categorised it accordingly, maybe?
I mean who really knows what the (lab) coats get up to after dark!

It's weird though how a species will react different even among themselves, difference in nature is astounding, not all fish are equal

Numpty muppet

On a lighter note, plum.

 

[J.Mcpeak]

I have not read the last couple of pages, just logged on, but I just came from a LFS where the fish guy is a biology major at our local university. He happened to be chatting with a different customer about osmotic shock when I came in. I asked his opinion on pH shock being a myth, and he agreed wholeheartedly and said that his biology professors at the university teach that pH shock is a myth and is actually osmotic shock.

It's very "he said she said" but there's at least some other academic professional biologists out there who think the pH argument that is perpetuated by the hobby is not relevant.

Aquarium GH, KH, PH; Chemistry, What to Know – Fish Beginner; Information & Help

 

[Caliban07]

Aquarium GH, KH, PH; Chemistry, What to Know – Fish Beginner; Information & Help

J.mcpeak

What is the point of pasting this article?

Threnjen has a firm understanding of this topic. The thing is, you know she does. This implies to me that you have actively sought to provoke a reaction from her because you know this will wind her up.

You know threnjen is not a beginner in that topic area. So I term that as an insult and she will too. And you know she will. I know you know she will and I kinda think that you enjoy that.

I could be wrong. I hope so. Maybe you just lack the social skills required for participation in a forum or you are unsure how to present yourself with written text.

You say you have run into moderator trouble on here before and everywhere I see your posts you are in an argument with somebody. Just so you know, it's little posts like these that are the cause. If you genuinely don't know what I'm talking about then I'm helping you to understand. If you do then I'm just letting you know that I know what you are doing and it's not funny or clever so please stop it.

 

[J.Mcpeak]

J.mcpeak

What is the point of pasting this article?

Threnjen has a firm understanding of this topic. The thing is, you know she does. This implies to me that you have actively sought to provoke a reaction from her because you know this will wind her up.

You know threnjen is not a beginner in that topic area. So I term that as an insult and she will too. And you know she will. I know you know she will and I kinda think that you enjoy that.

I could be wrong. I hope so. Maybe you just lack the social skills required for participation in a forum or you are unsure how to present yourself with written text.

You say you have run into moderator trouble on here before and everywhere I see your posts you are in an argument with somebody. Just so you know, it's little posts like these that are the cause. If you genuinely don't know what I'm talking about then I'm helping you to understand. If you do then I'm just letting you know that I know what you are doing and it's not funny or clever so please stop it.

Yes I lack social skills, I am a damaged by product of a dysfunctional family.
No I am not trying to wind anybody up.
Your perception of my input is out of my control.
I am clarifying for the greater good. It happens to involve those I have engaged with. What you think is what you think. I cannot change that. I will not change my response.

My mind works the way it does for reasons you cannot possibly comprehend (this is an assumption and may be incorrect).

If I say something that winds you up, that isn't my fault. That's your fault. Words are words and no more. I can't help Mis interpretation nor can I help your mindset or response reaction.

(Hope this helps)

(There is an element in that article relating to the importance of pH) read it. It's confirmation of sorts, from my side of the table, she has a place at the table with an opposing set of opinions, the "forum" is a place of debate and question is it not?

(I'll explain the mod incident but you must ask in pm as discussing mod action will lead me into more trouble, I'm not falling for that)

(What you don't know is that off air I have discussed our differences with Jen and we are at peace, you didn't until now know this conversation had taken place)

I have a firm understanding of English, I use the words I need to use and write them as such.

 

[J.Mcpeak]

Caliban;

Are they arguments? Difference of opinion maybe? Even you and I have managed to be confused with each other, these situations arise from time to time.

To put forward a point you believe to be true and "argue" toward that end is by some, considered constructive and perhaps even educational. It is the individual who may or may not decide to create a hostile situation. In another thread there was what could be considered an argument which transpired to be a simple misunderstanding. No harm no foul.

If forwarding some information and analysing it is argumentative in your mind how is that my fault? I can't engage in any form other than text here, it's how you interpret the written.

(I assume you read the title of the post and replied without reading the content?)

If you read it first then I apologise for this assumption.

(Edit- I think the last three post including this one would have been better as a PM)
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f12/aquarium-rock-question-305747.html

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f12/detritus-305996.html

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forum...rence-between-tetramin-and-hikari-305335.html

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f17/help-please-fish-are-sick-305845.html

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f17/gold-saum-protruding-anus-285953.html

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f82/is-my-cory-carrying-eggs-295836.html

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f20/need-expert-input-304879.html

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f12/snail-eggs-297167.html

(There are many more like this)

 

[Delapool]

Still following but wondering if we're drifting around the topic.

What I'm wondering still is what we should aim to keep stable in the water?

 

[J.Mcpeak]

Still following but wondering if we're drifting around the topic.

What I'm wondering still is what we should aim to keep stable in the water?

Kh/GH pH temperature. (That's my opinion)

PH will be controlled by Kh to a point but not exclusively.

To a certain extent TDS. I say this because I use a TDS monitor to tell me how far I have deviated from the start point. (Water I have made to a specific GH/Kh/pH in its pure form that is, without any additions or biological activity)
A full range of tests is carried out on this source water, a measurement of TDS is taken and used as a guide. Fluctuating Tap water is periodically checked to ensure ratios remain constant.

Eg, on water change new water is 080tds, a quick test of 120tds lets me know how degraded the water is from start point.
Example figures have no relevance in a real life situation and are given only to complete example.

(In any case the fish in most cases are able to adapt to a fairly wide range of parameters with only the extremes being any real cause for concern)
This doesn't apply to all species.

 

[Delapool]

Works for me - I need to get a TDS meter so I can start checking this stuff .

I've noticed over summer that water changes are fine but coming into winter I don't think the fish appreciate the cooler water so much. Just IMO but temp, especially temp below their preference I can believe. A working theory anyways.

Edit - Or that could be rubbish compared to a LFS (like this wine I'm about to pour down the sink)

 

[J.Mcpeak]

The bottom dwellers suffer most here as the cold water literally drops to the bottom of your tank. You can improve this slightly by aiming the water at the filter inlet to mix it up a bit. Wait a while (an hour or so) then add some more

(With really cold water you can literally see the difference of temperature and physically watch it fall to the bottom) all you need is an eyeball.

Edit, missed the edit!

The water doesn't need to be really cold just a great difference of maybe 15'C

 

[BillD]

I haven't read every post. I am glad to see the discussion of osmotic shock. I do recall an article I read a number of years ago claiming that pH shock was a myth. So, I will ask the same question here, does anyone have a link to scientific documentation on the existence of pH shock? In the past when I looked I wasn't able to fins any.
Drip acclimation can be a sure way to kill your fish. Perhaps not when you pick them up at the LFS, but in fish that have been trans shipped and have spent a day or more in the bag. As soon as you open the bag the excess CO2 escapes from the bag and the water, quickly raising the pH. This in itself is not an issue, but the ammonium becomes toxic ammonia.
One of the other forums I frequent had an individual who did some testing by swapping a fish abck and forth between water with a pH of 5 or so and 8 (if I remember correctly). He used RO water so TDS wouldn't be a factor and no ill effect was observed.

 

[J.Mcpeak]

http://www.ratemyfishtank.com/articles/107
(No phd)


Assessment of pH shock as a method for controlling sulfide and methane formation in pressure main sewer systems

Measuring pH in Freshwater Aquariums

Water chemistry problems

An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie

 

[J.Mcpeak]

http://www.ncrac.org/NR/rdonlyres/23953DEC-5569-4331-A34E-D97DF4A36AEC/0/Chapter16.pdf

Here we learn that the surface pH of the pond can be vastly different to the lower layers. So while it is possible to observe extreme changes at the surface the underlying layers of water will be different in terms of pH/temp.


Possibly the fish can swim to a safer (to the fish) level in the water course and stall or stop the pH swing recorded at the surface.

 

[Delapool]

I haven't read every post. I am glad to see the discussion of osmotic shock. I do recall an article I read a number of years ago claiming that pH shock was a myth. So, I will ask the same question here, does anyone have a link to scientific documentation on the existence of pH shock? In the past when I looked I wasn't able to fins any.
Drip acclimation can be a sure way to kill your fish. Perhaps not when you pick them up at the LFS, but in fish that have been trans shipped and have spent a day or more in the bag. As soon as you open the bag the excess CO2 escapes from the bag and the water, quickly raising the pH. This in itself is not an issue, but the ammonium becomes toxic ammonia.
One of the other forums I frequent had an individual who did some testing by swapping a fish abck and forth between water with a pH of 5 or so and 8 (if I remember correctly). He used RO water so TDS wouldn't be a factor and no ill effect was observed.

So far nothing but I have to head to bed. Mostly finding the opposite suggested as below. Soft water with ph of 7.4 was lowered to ph of 4 over 6 hrs. No loss. Shame they didn't start with high kh if I'm reading right.

http://repository.ubn.ru.nl/bitstream/handle/2066/28548/28548___.PDF?sequence=1

 

[threnjen]

Aquarium GH, KH, PH; Chemistry, What to Know – Fish Beginner; Information & Help

? Did you have something you actually want to say? You know I don't need a gh/kh/ph primer. How was that a response to my post.
There isn't anything in this link that provides any sort of refutation to osmotic shock do I am not even sure what you are trying to convey with it as a response to my post.

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