GBR(Mikrogeophagus ramirezi) breeding help

[PoppaRyno]

Punk?

I did just pull a pair from my 55g tap water selling fish tank that the female was pretty wild looking!
Although very small in comparison to neighbors in Ram Ranch I found her coloring stood above all others!

I have noted that most of my females have large enough second dorsal spikes then to fool many into thinking male if one was not there to compare to.

Where is Andys link on MB problems???

Ive noticed the black spot on them varies drastically from fem to fem. I like it because your right it seems very "wild"

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[coralbandit]

Ive noticed the black spot on them varies drastically from fem to fem. I like it because your right it seems very "wild"

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They are like shifting continents!

I like the black that can form in between the eyes mostly on the males.

 

[Andy Sager]

Thank you Andy!

So the article mentions fry...
I keyed on this article (in my head) due to title "Belly sliders".
It sounds exactly like what the females are doing now?
Could some thing like exposure possibly manifest later in adult fish??

I can't remember exactly what Arthur said once but the phrasing made my hairs stand up..

Maybe no solution as I have seen this before with my own fish that never saw any MB, but possibly a link of the affliction with different cause still.

I found this, which addresses the issue in more than just fry, so it might help you.Identifying and Treating Swim Bladder Disease

It's highly possible that your fish suffered an injury during spawning that she can recover from in time. A lot will depend on her will as much as how she handles the switch to a non performing, isolated condition ( I would use a hospital tank for this. )

Hope that helps.

 

[coralbandit]

Thanks Andy this issue screams swim bladder??
The no slow recovery sure matches up.

So I wonder if these fish can wear out?
I mentioned this before as I get good(GREAT) spawns and then a whole bad set???
So I either did not notice the eggs from #4 Jhawk being laid the day before yesterday or being their first(I believe) they were FULL of the good stuff and the eggs have all fallen and are wigglers (100%)in 24 hours!!
In comparison to another set still developing right next to them (same temp)...
Although I see no improvement of the females I believe one of the healthy Jhawks likes the #1 male!!!
They don't often switch partners especially while their existing is still alive, but his original is just sitting until she gets chased or is fed??
Needless to say the 40b is active with 4 healthy males and only 2 viable females....
I am very glad I have fry/juvis from these guys......

 

[PoppaRyno]

Have you tried the super low water, minimal air flow, salt bath, & H202 treatment. This has helped me save discus over the yrs that have had a swim bladder issue.

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[Andy Sager]

Thanks Andy this issue screams swim bladder??
The no slow recovery sure matches up.

So I wonder if these fish can wear out?
I mentioned this before as I get good(GREAT) spawns and then a whole bad set???
So I either did not notice the eggs from #4 Jhawk being laid the day before yesterday or being their first(I believe) they were FULL of the good stuff and the eggs have all fallen and are wigglers (100%)in 24 hours!!
In comparison to another set still developing right next to them (same temp)...
Although I see no improvement of the females I believe one of the healthy Jhawks likes the #1 male!!!
They don't often switch partners especially while their existing is still alive, but his original is just sitting until she gets chased or is fed??
Needless to say the 40b is active with 4 healthy males and only 2 viable females....
I am very glad I have fry/juvis from these guys......

Can they wear out? Sure they can. Fish, like every other animal, only have a certain number of eggs that they produce in a lifetime. So if you over breed or continually breed over a shorter amount of time, the timeline for available eggs gets shorter. Keep in mind, you are now dealing with modified fish so they don't necessarily have the genetic fortitude of their wild ancestors. Also, by removing the eggs from the parents, you are also disrupting the "natural" breeding cycles of the fish. In nature, if the pair loses the spawn, they breed again as soon as possible. Otherwise, they spawn more infrequently. In a tank, we MAKE them lose the spawn so they breed sooner than later. All this has to have an effect on the fish.

What many pro breeders do is to use a generation for a season or 2 then sell them off because they have the next generation in the waiting room waiting to take over. This way, they are always using stronger stock for breeding. What we as hobbyists do is keep our breeders as long as possible which doesn't always mean we are going to have good spawns for ever. In the case of Angels, their best productive years are only about the first 2 or 3 yet they can spawn, really BIG spawns even, 5,6, 7 years later. But this may mean they only breed once or twice a year as well. That's putting a lot of eggs in one basket, so to speak. To a breeder, this is unacceptable as they need continual supply.

So, can I say for sure your fish are spawned out? No. Do they have a disease or condition that's treatable? I have no idea. But you do. Are these older fish? Have they spawned a lot for you? Have you spawned them for a few years? If you answered "Yes" to all these questions, it may be time to retire the fish and move on to the offspring.

Hope this helps

 

[sinibotia]

Can they wear out? Sure they can. Fish, like every other animal, only have a certain number of eggs that they produce in a lifetime. So if you over breed or continually breed over a shorter amount of time, the timeline for available eggs gets shorter. Keep in mind, you are now dealing with modified fish so they don't necessarily have the genetic fortitude of their wild ancestors. Also, by removing the eggs from the parents, you are also disrupting the "natural" breeding cycles of the fish. In nature, if the pair loses the spawn, they breed again as soon as possible. Otherwise, they spawn more infrequently. In a tank, we MAKE them lose the spawn so they breed sooner than later. All this has to have an effect on the fish.

What many pro breeders do is to use a generation for a season or 2 then sell them off because they have the next generation in the waiting room waiting to take over. This way, they are always using stronger stock for breeding. What we as hobbyists do is keep our breeders as long as possible which doesn't always mean we are going to have good spawns for ever. In the case of Angels, their best productive years are only about the first 2 or 3 yet they can spawn, really BIG spawns even, 5,6, 7 years later. But this may mean they only breed once or twice a year as well. That's putting a lot of eggs in one basket, so to speak. To a breeder, this is unacceptable as they need continual supply.

So, can I say for sure your fish are spawned out? No. Do they have a disease or condition that's treatable? I have no idea. But you do. Are these older fish? Have they spawned a lot for you? Have you spawned them for a few years? If you answered "Yes" to all these questions, it may be time to retire the fish and move on to the offspring.

Hope this helps

With rams which have naturally short lifespans I imagine the issue could be a lot more complicated than with a long lived fish like angelfish....

 

[coralbandit]

I don't believe any of my breeding stock is much over a full year old?

These fish aren't producing years in a row yet for me.....

I think I have to look at swim bladder issue,But could it be from ISKNV?

Couldn't spleen /kidney be related to swim bladder??
Thank God it's Friday People..
Got new pump and 150g per day kit for my ro system.

So with eggs going bad(in bunches) I may just go back low on TDS...
As I have been slowly raising it to 130 aprox. my eggs seem possibly not to be getting fertilized?
I don't know ,but I should just go back to how it was working to see??

 

[Brookster123]

Punk girl huh?? Check out her, no males present, she is just letting it flow..

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[skylane]

Hi CB, Thank god its Friday, so true!!![emoji106]
Hope your fish troubles go away soon, hey you're the RAMBANDIT
Man!!!
I'm following dude as always!!![emoji6]

Clem

 

[coralbandit]

Punk girl huh?? Check out her, no males present, she is just letting it flow..

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She does look good!
I couldn't help pulling the pair from the 55!
She called to me!

Hi CB, Thank god its Friday, so true!!![emoji106]
Hope your fish troubles go away soon, hey you're the RAMBANDIT
Man!!!
I'm following dude as always!!![emoji6]

Clem

If it was easy everyone would do it??
When the challenge is so great you feel like doing something easier(felt this way for a year) then if ,IF success is achieved it can only be that much sweeter.
There are always other fish in the sea....
Until then ,they are testing me and my knowledge hard..
Thanks Clem!

 

[brennae]

No doubt about a challenge! The L333 are giving me a time of it!



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[Andy Sager]

I don't believe any of my breeding stock is much over a full year old?

These fish aren't producing years in a row yet for me.....

I think I have to look at swim bladder issue,But could it be from ISKNV?

Couldn't spleen /kidney be related to swim bladder??
Thank God it's Friday People..
Got new pump and 150g per day kit for my ro system.

So with eggs going bad(in bunches) I may just go back low on TDS...
As I have been slowly raising it to 130 aprox. my eggs seem possibly not to be getting fertilized?
I don't know ,but I should just go back to how it was working to see??

Here's a wild thought: Could the TDS increase have effected the fish to cause the apparent swim bladder condition? Maybe put the female back into that lower TDS and see if it resolves itself.

 

[sinibotia]

Like clockwork! 8 days, 6pm, ram spawn!

 

[coralbandit]

Here's a wild thought: Could the TDS increase have effected the fish to cause the apparent swim bladder condition? Maybe put the female back into that lower TDS and see if it resolves itself.

Well this is easy enough to try?
I have seen this before over years though and haven't always screwed with the water so much!
Although I use to keep my rams a year ago in much lower TDS water then now...

 

[coralbandit]

Like clockwork! 8 days, 6pm, ram spawn!

You got the fever bad bro!
Congrats!!!

 

[sinibotia]

They get to keep this one! The free swimmers from their last spawn have been dropping like flies and I want to focus on angelfish! Still have around 30 fry from the first spawn I saved though and they're growing great!

 

[coralbandit]

They get to keep this one! The free swimmers from their last spawn have been dropping like flies and I want to focus on angelfish! Still have around 30 fry from the first spawn I saved though and they're growing great!

Two weeks old is the first marker after free swimming.....
I'm not even sure I am at 10% survival so far...

The issue for the females can't be TDS related because the GBR I have shipped to everyone were from my tap(300+).
I did add some more Epsom salt to that tank(1 tablespoon to 40g) with low TDS water 50% wc but tank test 199 with the Epsom added.

 

[sinibotia]

So, the eggs are still there, but usually this is the night that they eat the fry! I would love to see some wigglers with the parents!

 

[coralbandit]

So, the eggs are still there, but usually this is the night that they eat the fry! I would love to see some wigglers with the parents!

Remember this time that they may just move the wigglers away from the eggs ,hiding them from you but really protecting them from any fungus on other eggs....


Back at Ram Ranch one of the yellow females is now sitting on bottom.
This is another one of the most productive females.
She has not had contact with any other fish besides her mate and the four @ 2 month old fry that are still in the 10g with her and him.
He is healthy.

I really wonder if breeding/over breeding is the whole cause of this?
I am pretty sure I have seen males do this but mostly and right now it is a female thing 3/3...

Four sets of wigglers turned to free swimmers today....
I'll load a few pics of juvis and Ohio.

The GBR from ZerOsignal in Ohio

Fry/juvi from late Sept/Oct in 20 tall

The grow out station(2@20 tall and 1@10) with Athena in her new favorite place on the towels under the tanks!