Holes in Leaves and Dying Plants

[WBAC88]

The setup first:
70g freshwater tank
PFS substrate
Dose with Flourish Comprehensive with weekly PWC, daily Flourish excel, Flourish root tabs every few months
Plants: anubias, Java fern, jungle vals, amazon swords, a small spiky plant that propagates that I can't remember the name of, and a few stalks of wisteria
Stock: 5 neons, 7 pristellas, 3 mid sized angels and a clown nose pleco
Measurements:
Ammonia: 0ppm
Nitrites: 0ppm
Nitrates: 20-25ppm
Lighting: unknown
No co2

This is a tank that's been through a lot of changes over the last couple years, but starting maybe a year ago, I started noticing that a lot of my plants, starting with the amazon swords started developing holes in the leaves. Eventually the swords died off almost completely and are only now regrowing to about half their former size. Adding more ferts and the root tabs helped a little but the leaves are still very thin, almost translucent.

The vals are doing the best, but the anubias and some of the java fern still have the holes. I've seen that sometimes missing certain nutrients can cause this, but can't quite figure out which might do that or how to dose them. I know that my lighting isn't fantastic, so I've tried to keep to to lower light plants, since I don't want to have to deal with co2. Lights are on about 8 hrs a day.

I really want my tank looking like it did for the first two or so years of its life, which was lush and green and healthy, so I'm willing to try anything. If you need any more info to help you or you have any suggestions at all please let me know! Thanks!

 

[molliwopp]

Looks like you've got quite a lot of algae in there too, have you slowed on your water changes? doing anything different?

 

[WBAC88]

Yes I had a BBA outbreak a little while ago. I'm always nervous about water changes for fish health vs getting rid of algae. I did cut down in the ferts and the excel is helping too, so it's on its way down but still doesn't look great.

 

[Rivercats]

Cutting down on ferts is bad when dealing with algae as this actually makes it easier for algae to out compete plants for what is in the water.

First Swords, crypts, and bulb plants need root tabs as they are all heavy root feeders and need root tabs added as much as every 45 days where swords are concerned.

Pin holes in leaves of plants indicate potassium deficiency.

How much Excel are you using daily? You do know that Excel or any liquid carbon increases photosynthesis and growth which means they need more nutrients. The fert your using is basically micro nutrients so if you want to keep using liquid ferts you need to look into buying and using Flouish Potassium and Phosphorous. Here's a link to the Seachem dosing chart... Seachem Dosing Calculator/Chart - Fertilizing - Aquatic Plant Central.

Taking a picture of the lights might help identify them. But also as long as you have algae you should only run lighting 6 hours until you can correct the problem causing the algae and spot treat the existing BBA to get it out of the tank.

Also cut off all damaged leaves on the Sword so it doesn't waste energy trying to repair them and instead puts all its energy into new growth.

As for WC's I do and have done 50% weekly WC's on my tanks for over 30 years. Not only do WC's keep excess nutrient levels down and water pristine but fish seem to very much enjoy the fresh inflow of water. Often when using water 1-2 degrees cooler to refill the tank with stimulates many fish to spawn. Angels and cory cats do this quite often. I have 12 breeding adults in my 220g planted and they often spawn the day after a WC.

One last thing, using dry ferts would be so much cheaper than liquid ferts. For $15 plus shipping you can get over a years supply of dry ferts which supply all the macro and micro nutrients they need.

 

[WBAC88]

Cutting down on ferts is bad when dealing with algae as this actually makes it easier for algae to out compete plants for what is in the water. First Swords, crypts, and bulb plants need root tabs as they are all heavy root feeders and need root tabs added as much as every 45 days where swords are concerned. Pin holes in leaves of plants indicate potassium deficiency. How much Excel are you using daily? You do know that Excel or any liquid carbon increases photosynthesis and growth which means they need more nutrients. The fert your using is basically micro nutrients so if you want to keep using liquid ferts you need to look into buying and using Flouish Potassium and Phosphorous. Here's a link to the Seachem dosing chart... Seachem Dosing Calculator/Chart - Fertilizing - Aquatic Plant Central. Taking a picture of the lights might help identify them. But also as long as you have algae you should only run lighting 6 hours until you can correct the problem causing the algae and spot treat the existing BBA to get it out of the tank. Also cut off all damaged leaves on the Sword so it doesn't waste energy trying to repair them and instead puts all its energy into new growth. As for WC's I do and have done 50% weekly WC's on my tanks for over 30 years. Not only do WC's keep excess nutrient levels down and water pristine but fish seem to very much enjoy the fresh inflow of water. Often when using water 1-2 degrees cooler to refill the tank with stimulates many fish to spawn. Angels and cory cats do this quite often. I have 12 breeding adults in my 220g planted and they often spawn the day after a WC. One last thing, using dry ferts would be so much cheaper than liquid ferts. For $15 plus shipping you can get over a years supply of dry ferts which supply all the macro and micro nutrients they need.

Wow, rivercats, thanks for all that info, that's awesome. I'll take a picture of the lights when I get home later.
I do 50% WCs weekly as well and that's worked well for me.
I've heard a lot about dry ferts but never made the jump. Can you recommend a good brand/mix that you've had success with in the past? Would that replace the comprehensive I've been using and add in the potassium and phosphorous I need?

Finally as a side bar, any tips on angels? Mine seem to be on the smaller side. I feed them cichlid flakes which were recommended by another member here but they don't seem to have done too much growing.

 

[Rivercats]

As for dry fert this $15 package is all you need and will last a couple years... http://greenleafaquariums.com/aquarium-fertilizers-supplements/micro-macro-fertilizers.html.



You need 3 dosing bottles found at the bottom of this page... http://greenleafaquariums.com/aquarium-fertilizer.html.



This is a good thread about dosing PPS-Pro. Only read the opening post not all the comments after it.... http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/pps-analysis-feedback/39491-newbie-guide-pps-pro.html.



There are two things I do different from the article. First I use 3 dosing bottles as I split the macro nutrients for better custom dosing to the needs of the tank. Nitrates in one bottle, phosphates and potassium in one bottle, and micro's in the 3rd bottle. The other thing you'll notice the recipe calls for using MgSO4, magnesium sulfate, which you don't need if you have hard tap water with a Gh and Kh of 4 or higher

As for the angels... how big are their bodies (not fins and tail)? Dime, nickel, or quarter size. The reason I'm asking is I normally get dime sized babies and feed them up to 5 smaller meals daily until they get to the quarter body size then depending they go down to 1 meal usually. They grow much better IMO having smaller meals throughout the day. Plus I feed a variety of foods. New Life Spectrum Thera A, some flake, Frozen Brine shrimp, cooked deshelled smashed up peas, and Beef Heart flakes from Angels Plus.

 

[Mijo51380]

@Rivercats what's the point of three dosing bottles so fine tune everything? Im dosing with dry ferts but i only have two bottles. I did see that my swords have some yellowing and holes starting and I use root tabs too so would three bottles help to get the fert where they need to be

 

[Rivercats]

"First I use 3 dosing bottles as I split the macro nutrients for better custom dosing to the needs of the tank. Nitrates in one bottle, phosphates and potassium in one bottle, and micro's in the 3rd bottle"

This allows better custom dosing with your macro's. I rarely need to use nitrates in any of my tanks as they stay around 10ppm which is where I want them. I also use more of the phosphate/potassium mix as I prefer my tanks to have higher phosphates at 3-5ppm as I've found you normally don't get any Green spot algae at those levels but also my non-green plants like lower nitrates and higher phosphates. So by keeping them separate I can adjust the macro's individually which you can't do when they are all together.

 

[Mijo51380]

Sounds like a good plan.another thing I have very hard water and have been dosing MgSo4 should I stop this?

 

[Rivercats]

Sounds like a good plan.another thing I have very hard water and have been dosing MgSo4 should I stop this?

Yes it's in the bottom of the 1 post I wrote. If gh is at least 4 then there is enough magnesium in the tap water. You don't need to be using it if you have hard water but it would be good if you could test your gh and kh.

 

[WBAC88]

As for dry fert this $15 package is all you need and will last a couple years... http://greenleafaquariums.com/aquarium-fertilizers-supplements/micro-macro-fertilizers.html. You need 3 dosing bottles found at the bottom of this page... http://greenleafaquariums.com/aquarium-fertilizer.html. This is a good thread about dosing PPS-Pro. Only read the opening post not all the comments after it.... http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/pps-analysis-feedback/39491-newbie-guide-pps-pro.html. There are two things I do different from the article. First I use 3 dosing bottles as I split the macro nutrients for better custom dosing to the needs of the tank. Nitrates in one bottle, phosphates and potassium in one bottle, and micro's in the 3rd bottle. The other thing you'll notice the recipe calls for using MgSO4, magnesium sulfate, which you don't need if you have hard tap water with a Gh and Kh of 4 or higher As for the angels... how big are their bodies (not fins and tail)? Dime, nickel, or quarter size. The reason I'm asking is I normally get dime sized babies and feed them up to 5 smaller meals daily until they get to the quarter body size then depending they go down to 1 meal usually. They grow much better IMO having smaller meals throughout the day. Plus I feed a variety of foods. New Life Spectrum Thera A, some flake, Frozen Brine shrimp, cooked deshelled smashed up peas, and Beef Heart flakes from Angels Plus.

Thank you for all the info. It seems like rather a good amount of investment to get all of the nutrients, the bottles and the scale. Are the results worth it? I've always been nervous of the learning curve of dry ferts because I know very little of chemistry and I would have to rely entirely on articles like the one you provided.

The angels are probably closer to quarter sized, but one is the largest and then the other two are smaller. I'll try varying their diet a bit. How much do you feed them for their one meal?

 

[Rivercats]

Yes it's worth it. Ferts are $15, a gram scale should be around $10, and you don't have to use the dosing bottles even tho they do make mixing and dosing much easier. For your size tank that will last well over a year and probably closer to 2. By the time you buy all the liquid ferts you need and in that size tank how fast you will use them there really is no price comparison.

As for dosing you add 1ml of each solution daily for every 10g of tank water. At the end of the week right before a WC you test nitrates and phosphates to see where your levels are. You want to shoot for 10-20ppm nitrates and 1-3ppm phosphates. If you find at the end of the week say your nitrate level is higher than 20ppm then you would just dose less the following week. It's not really complicated at all and you don't need a degree in chemistry to do it.

Using dry ferts gives plants all the macro and micro nutrients they need which liquid ferts just can't do unless you buy the entire line of Seachem ferts which runs into a lot of money. You do still need root tabs for swords, crypts, and bulb plants.

 

[WBAC88]

Yes it's worth it. Ferts are $15, a gram scale should be around $10, and you don't have to use the dosing bottles even tho they do make mixing and dosing much easier. For your size tank that will last well over a year and probably closer to 2. By the time you buy all the liquid ferts you need and in that size tank how fast you will use them there really is no price comparison. As for dosing you add 1ml of each solution daily for every 10g of tank water. At the end of the week right before a WC you test nitrates and phosphates to see where your levels are. You want to shoot for 10-20ppm nitrates and 1-3ppm phosphates. If you find at the end of the week say your nitrate level is higher than 20ppm then you would just dose less the following week. It's not really complicated at all and you don't need a degree in chemistry to do it. Using dry ferts gives plants all the macro and micro nutrients they need which liquid ferts just can't do unless you buy the entire line of Seachem ferts which runs into a lot of money. You do still need root tabs for swords, crypts, and bulb plants.

Ok, as soon as I have the extra funds I'm going to invest in the ferts and the dosing bottles. Luckily my girlfriend already has the scale I need. I think you or someone mentioned that I'll need to up my liquid CO2 dosage to compensate for the algae that could grow as a result of the ferts. How would I figure out how much extra I should put in? I do whatever it says on the bottle right now, but how would I adapt it?

 

[Hawkins409]

As an alternative to PPS Pro dosing, you can also look into EI (estimative index) dosing of dry ferts. The Greenleaf Aquariums website that Rivercats referred you to sells starter kits for both.

I went with EI dosing - it seemed easier.

 

[WBAC88]

As an alternative to PPS Pro dosing, you can also look into EI (estimative index) dosing of dry ferts. The Greenleaf Aquariums website that Rivercats referred you to sells starter kits for both. I went with EI dosing - it seemed easier.

Ok, interesting. What are the differences between the two? Are they different ferts or just a different want of measuring them? Why did you go with EI, what seemed easier about it?

 

[Hawkins409]

I've only been using dry ferts for about 3 weeks, I was using liquid and root tabs before. It has made a HUGE difference in the health of the plants.

 

[Hawkins409]

I read a number or articles about the difference between EI dosing and PPS Pro dosing after running a search on Google. Some were easier to understand than others. One person explained that with PPS Pro dosing, you are trying to dose the ferts at the rate the plants use them, whereas with EI dosing, you are giving the plants more than they need. To remove excess nutrients, with EI dosing you are going to be doing a weekly 50 percent water change. But, with EI dosing, you aren't going to need to buy a gram scale, measure nutrient levels in the water.

Here's exactly what I did to start E I dosing (1) buy the EI dry fert starter kit from Greenleaf Aquariums, (2) when it arrives, you'll see there are four plastic bags of ferts, (2) get four plastic food containers with lids to put the ferts in, (3) lookup your tank size... mine is 75 gallons, and using that, Greenleaf aquariums has a dosing chart for you to follow, (4) I chose Monday, Wednesday and Friday for dosing, and Sunday for water change, (5) to make it super easy, I calculated how many 1/8 teaspoonfuls I would need for each and wrote it on each respective plastic container lid with a marker, and (6) then, for example, on Monday i use that tiny 1/8 teaspoon measuring spoon and put in 6 scoops of one, 2 scoops of another, 2 scoops of another, and 1.5 scoops of the last one into a cup of water, stir, and pour in. Easy.

 

[Rivercats]

The difference between EI and PPS-Pro is that EI is about overdosing ferts so your nutrient levels are so high plants never lack for any nutrient. PPS-Pro is about dosing what a tank actually needs and uses. With EI you just add the dry ferts in the proper amounts right into the tank. With PPS-Pro you mix the liquid solutions and add 1ml of each solution to every 10g of tank water daily. But if you test your nitrates and phosphates at the end of each week right before a water change (which IMO you should do regardless of which regime you use) you can see where you levels are at compared to where you want them and adjust the macro's as needed. It's not very complicated. I like it because I don't want high levels of nitrates in my tanks, in fact my tanks run at about 10ppm nitrates naturally so I don't even dose them. The levels you want to shoot for in a planted tank is 10-20ppm nitrates and 1-3ppm phosphates. You always dose the micro mix the same. I just don't see how having a ton of excess nutrients in my tank helps plants when plants can only use so much of it even in high light, CO2 tanks. Plus I've heard many complain about how high their nitrate levels get. So basically it's just a matter of choice in how you want to run your tank.

 

[Rivercats]

But, with EI dosing, you aren't going to need to buy a gram scale, measure nutrient levels in the water. QUOTE]

You should measure nutrient levels in your tank regardless of which method you use. You might be very surprised what your nitrate and phosphate levels really are especially after you've been doing it for quite some time. Plants can only use "X" amount of the nutrients and the rest is waste IMO. Both methods achieve the same results but PPS-Pro keeps nitrates and phosphates levels lower which IMO is also better for fish while still giving plants all they need. I've actually used PPS-Pro dosing for years and my tanks are very successful without an overload of nutrients.

 

[Rivercats]

About the liquid carbon... right now up your dosage to 1ml liquid carbon for every 5 gallons of tank water. Once you start dosing dry ferts go up to 1ml liquid carbon for every 2 gallons of tank water.