Juvenile Orandas fighting?

[KatieBunky]

I bought two Orandas from my lfs last Thursday (29th May) & I'm not sure if they're fighting or establishing a hierarchy etc... Chip is a red & white capped Oranda & Dale is a black Oranda, both measure 9/10cm long so they're still juveniles I suppose & Dale is definitely smaller than Chip, but not by much. They're in a 10g tank with a pleco who is about 20cm long & sits in the same place... all day... everyday... exciting life XD I know it's a small tank, I know, but they should be moving to a 30g by Christmas & I've had goldfish in this tank before who were fine but due to personal circumstances they had to be given away.

So I'll stop blabbering on & give you all some info about my tank. I have 3 plants in this tank, one is very overgrown & needs cutting back but Chip & Dale love it. I have a shipwreck in the middle of my tank which doesn't take up too much room & it has an air stone inside it so bubbles flow out & it looks so pretty XD I'm going to be removing the ship in the next few weeks or so & making my own cave out of stones & fish tank adhesive if I can get my hands on some so there is more room for them to swim & more hiding spaces. I'm on study leave at the moment so I need a little something to keep my busy & I think it could be quite a good mini project. Water parameters are as follows:
Nitrate- 20
Nitrite- 0
pH- 7 (woop woop, neutral!)
Carbonate hardness- 240
General hardness- 120
My filter is plenty big enough for my tank & I think that's about everything I can say about it.

Right, so, onto the fighting/pecking order situation. My Orandas are constantly swimming & I only see them rest at the bottom a few times a day. They were getting on fine when I put them in the tank on Thursday but on Friday when I came downstairs in the morning I noticed Dale has a small rip in his dorsal fin. Then on Saturday I noticed a few of his scales on his right side look like they are peeling off & have gone slightly white. The rip isn't messy, it just looks like someone's got a pair of scissors to his fin & cut down a few millimeters. It's not infected from what I can see & it looks like it's begun to heal. Chip is in perfect condition, it's just Dale that looks like he's been dragged through a bush backwards. Chip will chase Dale & nudge underneath his bum/vent, but then Dale will do that to Chip. Chip does more of the pushing & shoving & nudging his "nose" under Dales bum but I have not once seen him open his mouth to hurt Dale, but I only watch them for about an hour or so every day in total so I don't know what happens when I'm not there. I think my pleco might be to blame because he's been alone in this tank for about 2/3 weeks so he's probably a bit ticked off that he's got young, active goldfish in his home. But on the other hand, I've had fancy goldfish before who have not been attacked, a few nips on the fins but nothing serious.

So my questions come down to this:
-Given what I've said, are my Orandas fighting, playing, establishing a pecking order, mating etc?
-What can I use to glue together the rocks for my home-made cave?
-If my pleco is to blame for the fin rip(s) & scales hanging off, can I put him in a 7g tank by himself? I don't want to rehome him but at the same time I don't want to keep him with Chip & Dale if he is found guilty XD

I will upload a picture of Chip, Dale (purely because I think they're handsome chaps) & my tank. The picture of Chip & Dale was when I first put them in the tank so the "fighting" hadn't started. The picture of the tank was taken about a year ago but it is still exactly the same, the only thing that has changed is they have a new filter & lots more of that tall fluffy looking plant. My fish at the time were partly hiding behind the ship, which is why it looks a little empty. I will get a picture of Dale's war wounds tomorrow as my lights are on a timer & they've switched off & he was a bit ticked off with having a torch shining in his face XD sorry my tank picture is a bit iffy, it is a bit bigger than that, you can see part of the old filter on the right side & it is bigger to the left as well. I'll get a better picture tomorrow

One more thing, I apologise for this being so super long & I don't really know how I've written so much about two fish that I've had for three/four days. Again, my apologies, if you've read down this far, thank you so much for taking the time to read my newspaper article sized post. Any suggestions welcome as long as you're polite ^_^

Thanks!

 

[Brookster123]

They need more space, plain and simple.. that tank is too small for 2 gold fish and a pleco, please don't take offense as I know you've been here before, it just won't work, no matter how much you want it too, they all crap way too much..

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Aquarium Advice mobile app

 

[KatieBunky]

Okay thanks

 

[Tank Girl]

The pleco alone is too much for a ten gallon. Adding two goldfish is going to make a bad situation much worse. Moving the pleco to a smaller tank won't be good for him. Ten gallons is not enough for the two goldfish. They are pretty, but Dale does not look like an oranda to me. From your picture it appears to have telescope eyes and I don't see any wen.

You could be seeing spawning behavior (however, sometimes you will see male to male chasing or female to female/male) and sometimes fish can be injured by it. Your description of the injuries, however, coupled with the fact that there is a large pleco in the tank, suggests to me that it is much more likely a pleco attack. Even just "nipped fins" is an attack. I've seen it happen and it's gut wrenching. The plecos are faster and the goldfish can't get away and they just have to endure it until the pleco is done or somebody sees it and puts a stop to it.

You don't mention what the ammonia reading is. It should be zero. Also, though goldfish will tolerate a ph of 7, they prefer it to be higher - 7.4 or above.

 

[KatieBunky]

Dale was labelled as a "black Oranda" at Maidenhead Aquatics (my lfs). I don't have any test strips that do ammonia readings. How do I raise the pH? I was thinking that they're too young to spawn, oh well, thay could be interesting. Like I said, I'm moving them to a 30 gallon tank by Christmas

 

[KatieBunky]

I mean, Maidenhead Aquatics are pretty reliable, they always give good information so I don't see why they'd lie about their fish. They had black Moor goldfish that were slightly different body shapes to Dale & they were a lot bigger so I chose the black Oranda

 

[Tank Girl]

Goldfish get mislabeled all the time, even at reputable stores. It doesn't mean they're lying, and I'm not suggesting they are. I didn't say it is a black moor, I said that, from the photo you posted, it appears to have telescope eyes and no wen. If it doesn't have a wen, it isn't an oranda.

 

[KatieBunky]

I didn't say you said it was a black moor, I was just making a comparison. Dale just looks a bit like a black moor

 

[Tank Girl]

If it has protruding eyes, it is a telescope. Black with protruding eyes, black moor. the distinguishing feature of an oranda is the wen. No head growth means it's not an oranda. For what it's worth, black moors and telescopes can vary widely in body shape. I have three and they're all quite different from each other.

 

[KatieBunky]

Okay maybe it was just mislabelled. What would be the chances of the two crossbreeding?

 

[Tank Girl]

Assuming they are male and female, sure, they might spawn. Be aware that there is a lot more to it, though.

 

[KatieBunky]

I know it's super difficult to breed them, from the vent, it does look like Chip is a female & Dale is a male, but who knows, they're hard to sex. But yeah like I said, all 3 are going into a 30 gallon in December, unless it's best to keep the pleco in the 10 gallon by himself

 

[Tank Girl]

It's not that it's difficult to breed them - getting eggs and milt from goldfish is pretty straightforward if you know what you're doing, it's the raising them that requires a great deal of care and attention.

Let's assume you have a successful spawn. You can't keep them in the tank with the parents, they'll just get eaten. They need a proper environment, food, and water changes to thrive and grow. Even after culling you may have quite a few fish. Where and how will you keep them all? These are just the very basics to consider before you attempt to breed them.

Don't put the pleco in with the goldfish when you get a bigger tank. Just the two goldfish is the most you should ever keep in a 30 gallon. If you put the pleco in, you'll be overstocked again, never mind the fin nipping issue.

 

[KatieBunky]

So shall I just keep the pleco in the 10 gallon?

 

[Tank Girl]

I would. Everybody will be happier that way.

 

[KatieBunky]

Now I've just got to persuade my mum to let me keep three tanks, this could be interesting. Is there anything I could put in with the pleco? I don't want him to be lonely?

 

[Tank Girl]

Two, three, who's counting? I'm not sure what would go well with a pleco, I stick to goldfish. I'm sure the serious pleco keepers here could tell you what would be good tank mates, but with only ten gallons, he might be better off alone. And you might be advised to keep him in a bigger tank, too. Just a head's up.

 

[KatieBunky]

I can only get 1 new tank this year for my tropicals. The goldies are going into my tropicals current tank when I get their new one. If that makes sense. Unfortunately the tropicals have to come first as I'm seriously overstocked. I just kept buying fish... & more... & more & then uh oh where did all of these fish come from? I might see if I could put a small shoal of danios in with him, or maybe some large shrimp

 

[Tank Girl]

The more fish you put in a tank, the faster the water quality degrades, which then requires more frequent, large volume (50% or more) water changes in order to keep the fish healthy and prevent disease outbreaks. Poor water quality and overcrowding puts the fish under tremendous stress, which leaves them vulnerable to pathogens living in the tank. Poor water quality also allows those same harmful pathogens to greatly increase in number and overwhelm otherwise healthy fish. In addition to 80% water changes and heavy filtration on my tank, I also run a UV sterilizer to keep the water extra clean. It's worth every penny.

 

[KatieBunky]

I know water quality is a big deal, my family is a bit tight for money at the moment. I'll ask my lfs for anything that could keep the water cleaner but doesn't cost a lot