PhosGuard Seemingly Not Working; Here's Seachem's Response...

[Osage_Winter]

So the diatoms have not eased up -- on top of all my other problems with this tank including the strange water test results I am getting -- and have even apparently gotten more aggressive and worse, and that is with having a PhosGuard pouch in my AquaClear 110. I emailed Seachem about the issue, and here was their reply:

"Thank you for your question and for using Seachem products. I am sorry to hear that you are dealing with such a nasty diatom bloom.

It is definitely possible that the silicates and phosphates in your tap water are part of the problem. What were the silicate and phosphate levels prior to adding the Phosguard?

It sounds as if you are using the product properly, it will function correctly as long as water is passing through it. What are your phosphates and silicates now and how long has the phosguard been in the filter?

You may also want to look into other sources of phosphates as these can also encourage diatom growth. Phosphates are commonly found in different fish foods and can be a problem if the tank is overfed. Many pH buffers also use phosphates because they have a large amount of acid binding sites available which makes them extremely stable. What types of food do you feed your fish and how often? Also what other products are you using in the tank, are you using a pH buffer?"

Any thoughts? They seem to be going back to the overfeeding issue, which has been discussed here many times for my situation, but I have cut back to once a day and are now taking measures to skip a day or two...but what if this still doesn't get rid of the diatoms? Is it possible the PhosGuard won't help?

 

[Fishguy2727]

I agree with them, what is the phosphate and silicate concentrations coming out of the tap?

 

[Osage_Winter]

I agree with them, what is the phosphate and silicate concentrations coming out of the tap?

I don't have those readings, Fish; as of right now, I am communicating with Seachem's staff privately and awaiting answers based on replies I gave them about overfeeding, etc.

Which part in particular did you agree with?

 

[Fishguy2727]

That your tap water could be a huge problem. Many people forget to think about what might be coming in with their tap. When they finally test they find the nitrate is really high so no wonder they could never get it below 20ppm, that kind of thing. Buy a couple good kits and test your tap water. If you have a good saltwater store in the area they may be able to accurately test the water for you (I say saltwater since most freshwater people are not as concerned about these two issues).

 

[meegosh]

What are the answers to their questions?

"What are your phosphates and silicates now and how long has the phosguard been in the filter?"

I believe they are on the right track here...

 

[Osage_Winter]

That your tap water could be a huge problem. Many people forget to think about what might be coming in with their tap. When they finally test they find the nitrate is really high so no wonder they could never get it below 20ppm, that kind of thing. Buy a couple good kits and test your tap water. If you have a good saltwater store in the area they may be able to accurately test the water for you (I say saltwater since most freshwater people are not as concerned about these two issues).

Hello Again Fish,

Thanks for the reply. Oh, OK -- you meant that you agreed that it could be my problem in terms of the water...if that is in fact the issue (which I am almost positive it is based on how the diatoms seem to get much worse with every new top off) then I don't know what I am going to do. I am in discussions with Seachem now, and here are their latest replies:

It will be difficult to know how well the product is working without knowing the original phosphate and silicate levels.

I apologize, I must have missed your tank size in the original email. You will need about 200ml of Phosguard to treat a 60 gallon system. I would recommend buying a larger container of Phosguard, maybe a 500ml, so you will have enough to treat your tank multiple times. This can be measured into any filter bag and used in your AquaClear. If your phosphates and silicates are extremely high, you may need to replace the Phosguard as it is exhausted. You will need a test kit to know when it is not capable of removing any additional phosphates and silicates.

Again, you will need to obtain a test kit to know how much the Phosguard has removed. You may not see an immediate change in the diatom growth. Phosguard is not an algaecide but rather a way to help control the nutrients algae feeds on. With a test kit you will be able to determine if the levels are still high and be able to react accordingly. Adding to proper amount of fresh Phosguard should help as it has the capability of removing quite a bit of phosphate as well as silicate.


I do not think that feeding your goldfish once a day is too much but you will want to regulate how much you feed them, a little goes a long way. Also, feeding a high quality food will be better than the aqueon in the long run. Just like with other animal foods, higher quality fish food is more easily digested and is more nutritious. Hikari makes some great goldfish foods that would be better than the aqueon flakes. Higher quality foods are also less likely to pollute the water as badly as cheaper foods.

Over all, I think adding a fresh 200ml of Phosguard and getting a test, to allow you to monitor the levels, will help you get your water and your tank back in shape. Remember that keeping ammonia and nitrites down is also important. Algae feed on these elements just as much as they do phophates and silicates. Regular water changes, feeding less, and fresh carbon in your filter will help maintain these levels.

 

[Osage_Winter]

Okay, so now obviously, based on these replies, they're suggesting -- as you and many others have -- that I need to definitely test the water for phosphate levels and such (but I don't have a specific kit for that). I know you suggested to test the tap levels too. They also are telling me to buy a larger supply of the PhosGuard because what I ordered isn't enough for my size system (which I suspected).

I will get back to you with more updates and progress...

 

[Osage_Winter]

What are the answers to their questions?

"What are your phosphates and silicates now and how long has the phosguard been in the filter?"

I believe they are on the right track here...

Mee,

My reply to their question above was:

"To be honest, I don't even think I have a test that tests for silicates and phosphates -- all I have is the API Master Fresh Water kit...

The PhosGuard pack has been in the filter around five or so days...no change in diatoms in the tank, as they have grown all over everything and seem to multiply daily..."

And they replied:

Again, you will need to obtain a test kit to know how much the Phosguard has removed. You may not see an immediate change in the diatom growth. Phosguard is not an algaecide but rather a way to help control the nutrients algae feeds on. With a test kit you will be able to determine if the levels are still high and be able to react accordingly. Adding to proper amount of fresh Phosguard should help as it has the capability of removing quite a bit of phosphate as well as silicate.

But I'm beginning to suspect that perhaps I need what they called an ALGAECIDE...do you know anything about these?

 

[Fishguy2727]

Are you just having a massive outbreak of brown algae? If so bristlenose plecos will help. I would add about three large ones in that size tank. If they don't make a difference then add more one at a time until you have enough to keep it under control. I know this goes against what some people say (more fish means more waste and therefore more food for algae) but these guys are an essential in any tank IMO. They will also eat oher types of algae (as the conditions in your tank change and favor other types) and eat it as it develops in the future and thus preventing an outbreak.

If you don't want to do that it really would be worth buying the kits.

 

[Osage_Winter]

Are you just having a massive outbreak of brown algae? If so bristlenose plecos will help. I would add about three large ones in that size tank. If they don't make a difference then add more one at a time until you have enough to keep it under control. I know this goes against what some people say (more fish means more waste and therefore more food for algae) but these guys are an essential in any tank IMO. They will also eat oher types of algae (as the conditions in your tank change and favor other types) and eat it as it develops in the future and thus preventing an outbreak.

I really don't know if this is just an outbreak of brown algae or if they're diatoms -- when I first posted pictures of these spots on this site, everyone commented that they did definitely look like diatoms, so that's why I was assuming that's what I have...

Would you like me to post new pics of what is currently happening in my tank? Perhaps that would give you a better idea of what it is -- maybe it is only algae...

What is the difference between the two?

If you don't want to do that it really would be worth buying the kits.

Do you mean if I didn't want to buy the algae eaters? I would definitely add them to the tank -- the thing is, I was advised several times that catfish cannot mix with goldfish...

 

[fort384]

I don't think adding more fish to a tank that already has poor water quality is a good solution.

PWC's are the key. Clean water, excess nutrient export... these will help. More chemical solutions like algaecide will not fix this problem.

Determining the silicate and PO4 content of your tap water will help you decide if that is the issue.

 

[Fishguy2727]

Brown algae is diatom algae.

We don't know that poor water quality is the problem. More water changes with tap water that is high in silicates that is feeding the algae will never fix this problem. Nutrient export is good, but if you input just as much as you export (or even more with the silicates) you are not fixing anything.

Bristlenose are perfectly safe with goldfish. I have two in my 75 with my axolotl, fantails, telescopes, and moor and they never bother anything (except algae). They will not suck on the goldfish and they can thrive in the temp and hardness. There are no compatibility issues.

What is the nitrate concentration? That will tell us how the water quality is. If this is okay but you are still having problems it is almost certainly your tap water. If it is your tap water you have few options. Get a filtration system, like a RO/DI, supplements to remineralize it, and a big container to make water in. Or you can buy water for every water change you ever do from now on.

I have been doing this for fifteen years and helped countless others online and in the shops I have worked at, I would do bristlenose.

 

[fort384]

I agree on looking into filtration systems, if the tap water is the issue.

However, I disagree that we don't know water quality is an issue. PWCs still have to be a part of the equation... and so far that is not happening. If someone is readily saying that they are not performing PWCs, I would never recommend adding more fish to a tank.

 

[Fishguy2727]

I agree. Where did he say he isn't doing water changes?

What is the water changes schedule?

 

[Fishguy2727]

If you aren't doing weekly water changes then all the special medias, algicides, maintenance fish (bristlenose), etc. will not help. An aquarium is nothing but a stagnant death trap without water changes.

 

[Osage_Winter]

I don't think adding more fish to a tank that already has poor water quality is a good solution.

PWC's are the key. Clean water, excess nutrient export... these will help. More chemical solutions like algaecide will not fix this problem.

Determining the silicate and PO4 content of your tap water will help you decide if that is the issue.

Well, adding a catfish or two wouldn't really compound the bio toxicity, would it? I wouldn't think it would.

 

[Osage_Winter]

Brown algae is diatom algae.

So, they're one and the same? I thought they weren't...

We don't know that poor water quality is the problem. More water changes with tap water that is high in silicates that is feeding the algae will never fix this problem. Nutrient export is good, but if you input just as much as you export (or even more with the silicates) you are not fixing anything.

That's what I was worried about with the water changes -- I am putting in the same tainted water with every change (or top off) and I think it's going around in a circle.

Bristlenose are perfectly safe with goldfish. I have two in my 75 with my axolotl, fantails, telescopes, and moor and they never bother anything (except algae). They will not suck on the goldfish and they can thrive in the temp and hardness. There are no compatibility issues.

Thank you. Do you think these guys will eat the algae? If so, I will look into getting some if my local FS has any...

What is the nitrate concentration? That will tell us how the water quality is. If this is okay but you are still having problems it is almost certainly your tap water.

I don't recall the latest Nitrate reading offhand; I just posted a thread about this but I will have to go back and look...

If it is your tap water you have few options. Get a filtration system, like a RO/DI, supplements to remineralize it, and a big container to make water in. Or you can buy water for every water change you ever do from now on.

How is this implemented with regard to the current water/sink system I have if I went down the Reverse Osmosis route?

I have been doing this for fifteen years and helped countless others online and in the shops I have worked at, I would do bristlenose.

You mean get the bristlenose rather than try a new water source, etc? I'll be honest...I don't think I have the dedication or stamina to install a new water source or filter in my home or buy water from an outside source every time I want to do a water change just to sustain these four goldfish...

There's got to be another way through routes like I am taking now...i.e. Seachem's PhosGuard, etc...

 

[Osage_Winter]

I agree on looking into filtration systems, if the tap water is the issue.

The diatoms do not go away on their own so far. I have cut back on feeding. I have cleaned them off all the ornaments. They come back and really aggressively. I am down to the only option being silicates in the tap water.

 

[Osage_Winter]

I agree. Where did he say he isn't doing water changes?

What is the water changes schedule?

Fish,

I had admitted that I kind of gave up on water changes due to the horrendous trouble I have had attempting them (this is documented in countless and very long old threads of mine in this forum) and I was relying on top offs only -- however, this diatom issue began way before I gave up on the idea of regular changes, and I think the culprit is my tap water source.

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

You are still using that POS top fin siphon? I think I told you 6 times in 2 separate threads to get a different, simple one without a ball valve and a 6 foot hose and just suck-start it. Get a couple of 5 gallon buckets ($2.50 at Home Depot) - get 4 and fill them only 1/2 way up when siphoning the tank, this way you can keep the siphon going longer and you won't have to suck-start over and over, and if you have a toilet nearby and another perons helping, one to empty buckets while you fill them.

If you are unable or unwilling to do PWCs, which you should be doing to the tune of 50% every week minimum, then you need to STOP keeping fish, especially goldfish which are very dirty and produce a lot more waste.

OW OW OW OW