PWC and Prime

[roundar]

I just thought I'd say I'd be fascinated to hear the response to the last post. I'm very interested in any counters to the opinions expressed.

 

[ejaramillo01]

I also use a phyton, I always do exactly as Jetajockey, never had a problem or a sick fish...
Prime works instantly in the tank.

 

[dollabill420]

Okay. I respectfully disagree, and here's why.

Water conditioner is intended to work instantly, both in dechlorination and detoxifying heavy metals.

Matching temperature isn't too critical as long as it's close. I even lower the temperature on purpose when refilling certain tanks to trigger breeding. (corydoras). Luckily our tap runs in the mid 70s here this time of year so it's not something I have to deal with, however in the winter time I connect to an inside tap that way I can adjust the temperature as needed.

As far as the pH thing goes, most of my tanks run at a similar pH to that in the tap, and the ones that don't have never had any issues, although I don't keep any extreme pH tanks.

A lot of people use pythons, aqueons, and lee's water changers to directly refill from the tap, so if poisoning were a viable issue I think there'd be more accounts of it happening.

Not trying to be argumentative but if this is a tangible concern it should definitely be verified and documented so that more people (including myself) take care in their refilling practices.

Thanks.

You never see saltwater tanks treated with this abuse do you? There's a reason they hold water first for a good 24 hours, it stabilizes and makes it exactly the ph of your base water, if I had chlorine in my tap water I defiantly would not do it this method, I basically live in the woods with a natural spring fed well with no houses around or toxins on our land (72 acre) (aprox 1000 acre behind house unpopulated where water comes from) with a free flowing moss swamp which is earths magical pre filter and I still to this very day age my water even for a fresh and always will.

Here's an easy way to do it, get a strong garbage can with wheels that you would normally put at the end of your drive way and add your prime, fill with water and let sit till as long as you desire(at least 24 hours) and take a small water pump or powerhead that would be normally for say a saltwater sump and drive it in the garbage can to keep the water circulating with a heater in it that's to the desired temperature or maybe a hair higher, then have a hose to your water pump in the garbage can and fill your tanks up from that, it's litteraly a rolling water cart, in my case all I really need to do is gas off co2 which makes it acidic so I really don't need prime but I use anyway for heavy metals and slime coat because I don't use any salt or other chemicals. It's a good idea to have a venting hole in the lid, also a strong airpump will work fairly good to keep circulating water so heater is effective, this is how pros do it alot of times and it is wonderful for you and fish, there are different styles but I like this way all are the same idea, you always have water on command. Another garbage can will also work in reverse to clean aquariums or can use a python but I like the regular gravel cleaners, there cheap, work lifetime and work better.
This is my opinion, you can do what you want, but I pray for your fish, any questions about the system or something I missed pm me

Thank you

With regards, Dolla

 

[Mumma.of.two]

Wow. I thought I was asking a simple question.

 

[dollabill420]

Wow. I thought I was asking a simple question.

Haha nothing ever is, this is a strongly opinionated and diverse hobby makes for extremely good discussions, makes for a good knowledge base, if 100 people throw in an idea can come up with common denominators and figure out the best way. Now my way has it's flaws but it has it's ease too, once you get on to it you feel like a janitor for your aquariums bahaha. I wouldn't do this system for small tanks, I just use a bucket 25 watt walmart hearter and an airstone , then raise your bucket above tank with say milkcrates and use gravel vac to siphon clean water in, worked well for me for a good amount of years and is really cheap to do. I had to do 4 buckets at one time so I just kept pouring water from other buckets into the one siphoning in to make quicker, takes a good deal of strength to pour water from a bucket up near your head though lol and I'm 6'3

 

[jetajockey]

This is my opinion, you can do what you want, but I pray for your fish, any questions about the system or something I missed pm me

Thank you

With regards, Dolla

I'm well familiar with how some water changing stations work. If I was doing SW I wouldn't be using straight tap water at all since everything would be going through r/o and whatever else I ended up using.

My direct issue is with whether the fish are being 'poisoned' by chlorine or not, and I explained why I don't believe they are.

I'm not the only person that does things like this, many people refill directly from the tap. Ideal? No, but it works. I'll eventually put together an automatic water changing station and in that I'll have a very large aging tank so that I don't have to constantly treat the continuous drip.

I'm glad the garbage can method works for you, if I aged all of my water that way I'd be doing water changes for over half of the week.

Thanks, but my fish don't need any of your prayers, they are just fine. If you have any actual evidence that shows why refilling directly from the tap is hurting the fish, please present it.

 

[mr_X]

i've used this method years ago on fresh water tanks and i did see signs of stress. i guess it also depends on where your water comes from and how close it matches your tank water. we use heaters on our tanks because they need to be at a certain temp. the water these fish are taken from before they hit our tanks is a stable temperature. any sudden changes will stress them. when you buy a new fish, do you just bring him home and toss him in, or do you acclimate him?

 

[Mogurako]

I have been using the exact method jeta does for years in FRESH WATER tanks with no problems. I agree if you are doing salt that there are different methods on water changes that have to be implemented.

People are saying it's bad, but where is the documented scientific data that supports this claim? There are countless people using direct to tank water change methods and I hadn't heard of any issues.

 

[LyndaB]

While I'm refilling my tanks, I put in the Prime. I also only treat for the amount of water I'm replacing in the tank, not for the entire tank (that's a whole nother argument sometimes).

I've never had an issue using this method.

 

[dollabill420]

I have been using the exact method jeta does for years in FRESH WATER tanks with no problems. I agree if you are doing salt that there are different methods on water changes that have to be implemented.

People are saying it's bad, but where is the documented scientific data that supports this claim? There are countless people using direct to tank water change methods and I hadn't heard of any issues.

Whats your opinion on why saltwater fish need different methods of water changing? Compared to freshwater fish? What makes them any different?

Here's what I know, saltwater fish are less hardy and need exact water conditions because they come from the most stable water conditions on earth, the ocean. Originally it was only feasible for people on the coast to keep a saltwater tank and public aquariums because they both had the resource, saltwater, public aquariums still use this method to date. People inshore became interested in saltwater aquariums because they were exotic, but they were land locked and didn't have the resources to ship saltwater from the ocean so there became a new market, so manufactures made a salt mix that enables the average person to keep a saltwater aquarium, the only downside is it needed a water of ph 7, 0 hardness, and 0 KH, that's where a RO/DI filter comes into play to acquire such water. That and municipality water systems are irregular and carry too much bacteria to keep infections at bay.if you had this water condition you in theory could keep hardier species with no problems and people do with good water, but if you start out with say 7.2ph 1dH and 1kh the salt they sell will mix high and cause problems, also excess nutrients in the starting water will cause algae outbreaks by times which I'd ugly and undesired.

Also most of the saltwater are still hauled from the ocean and to tanks and will not stand change and transport, and most defiantly will not handle unstable conditions due to over 2 billion years of history in the ocean. Natural seawater from where the fish naturally resides is still the best option when done right and will be more stable then any synthetic saltmix they can come up with.

A freshwater is no different then a saltwater just used to a bit more varied environment then a saltie, they still can't handle rapid changes and unstable conditions like a salty, but the tank raised ones are getting more hardy then any wild fish of either water type.

You could survive in a 2ft x 2ft x 6th box with limited air and no heat, but how long would you survive yet alone thrive in those conditions?

All comes down to environmental biology, that is the science needed to understand why straight tap water not aged isn't right for aquariums, how often are fish swimming in pools of water that just came out of the ground? Very few my friend

 

[roundar]

I entirely respect your opinion on the matter however there are some issues that come to mind. You mentioned pH changes, but research will make it abundantly clear that changes of even over 1 in pH are not harmful. Often people confuse "pH shock" with water hardness shock(a much more realistic danger that typically is not a danger using tap water). Temperature variation causing problems is also highly misunderstood. Mother nature throws some severe temperature changes at fish and as we can see, they handle it quite well. My own tanks even experience changes several degrees in a day (Going from the coolest points of night, to the warmest parts of the day.) Quick temperature changes are also a tool used by fellow breeders who breed fish that require such as it is found in their natural habitat.

Keep in mind I'm not speaking purely about my tiny 8 tanks, I keep in regular contact w/ breeders right here on these forums with over 70 tanks! They use pythons with city water as well. I simply have not been presented with any tangible evidence that suggests that fish raised with out pythons(or similar devices) are more healthy than their python-method exposed counter parts. Keep in mind that saltwater is drastically different than fresh on several levels and quite simply not comparable.( For instance as dollabill pointed out, many saltwater fish come from conditions that stay very constant.) I have absolutely no problem with dosing with prime or similar conditioner,adjusting to temp.(I'm a little curious how, without using ro/di, your adjusting the pH exactly to the tank when often the tank does not sit at the same pH as aerated tap water), then adding. I believe that is a fine method and if someone can easily employ it I wouldn't dream of trying to convince them not to. I just don't think there is sufficient evidence to argue against the python-method.

Also note that this is not intended as a cover-all for freshwater fish. Nor is it intended to include every possible tap water composition, frankly some tap water simply is NOT for fish. Each situation should be assessed independently. But there is overwhelming amounts of experience that suggest no additional stress is caused by the 'python-method.'

 

[Maya]

To each their own. Congratulations to dollabill for living in a place where he has access to clean water that doesn't require the use of chemical additives. It sounds lovely, but there are folks out there who would be appalled at his use of "PBA leeching plastic trashcans" used to contain a water source. Are they right? Who knows. But his method works well for him.
Jeta has successfully raised and cared for countless fish using what seems to be a rather successful (for him) method to obtain his water sources. Obviously, some people are appalled by his use of chemically de-chlorinated municipal water. Is he right? Who knows. But.. Well you get my point. Dollabill's use of a natural water source may be far worse for the fish owner who has the misfortune to live downstream from a power plant. And jeta's use of tap water may not be a good choice for the next person. That's the great part of the hobby. We all get to see what works best for us and then have great success using our own methods.
My main problem is the use of terminology like "torture" and "praying for your fish". Lets all remember, unless we have shunned the use of gasoline powered engines, eliminated our energy usage and our phosphate laden detergents and soaps, and begun recycling 100% of our disposable goods.... We are all contributing to the torture of fish and the degradation of their natural habitats. These folks are attempting to create safe and healthy environments for their fish. And there is always more than one way to do that.

 

[dollabill420]

That seems to be the biggest key to it is your water you have to use which is a major bummer in most places, I actually don't use the garbage can method any more that was a good while ago, leaned more towards custom holding tanks that I fiberglass, I've been to aquaculture facilities and talked to the owners and they use them for rearing young fish inside before they go to the main nets, they also make a cheap 1000 gallon goldfish pond in your basement lol, figured if they were used on food with saltwater must be pretty stable when epoxied right. I wouldn't suggest holding water in trash can method for very long just one day, I believe forgot to mention this I don't trust em as much as the next person it's just the cheapest route to go, custom holding is out of most peoples skill and pocket books usually no good to even mention em

I'm starting to think this is another old school vs new school debate lol, seems like most of you think natural water source is before your time it reminds me of the saying "if you can't at least remember the 90's you can't be trusted" can't remember who told me that but it sure is funny and has seemed to hold true in this hobby.

But you are defiantly right on an aquarium being safer then most habitats in north America now I figure well be the only people left that has access to healthy fish for most the world, could make some money one day restocking lol

Edit: is anyone gonna give some proof and "scientific" data that a python is the better route then aging and pre treating, you all seem to be gung-ho for em and think prime is Jesus I wanna see some proof and try to convince me that my methods are pointless, this conversation has been one sided, and I'm done trying to argue its pointless from here on in, your right I'm wrong, now why are you right? No ones given any insight to why just keep saying it's safe that's a lame argument, good luck to who ever has a theory will gladly read

 

[Mogurako]

Edit: is anyone gonna give some proof and "scientific" data that a python is the better route then aging and pre treating, you all seem to be gung-ho for em and think prime is Jesus I wanna see some proof and try to convince me that my methods are pointless

No one is saying the python is better than pretreating and aging both work well, all we are saying is direct to tank water change method with prime or similar product works for us. Youself and others are the ones who is trying to say we are toturing our fish by using this method and that our opinions are pointless.

I will look for data later tonight.

 

[roundar]

Edit: is anyone gonna give some proof and "scientific" data that a python is the better route then aging and pre treating, you all seem to be gung-ho for em and think prime is Jesus I wanna see some proof and try to convince me that my methods are pointless, this conversation has been one sided, and I'm done trying to argue its pointless from here on in, your right I'm wrong, now why are you right? No ones given any insight to why just keep saying it's safe that's a lame argument, good luck to who ever has a theory will gladly read

The burden of proof is on you my friend. I don't know a single person who says that buckets won't work. What I see is people making unsubstantiated claims that python-method is unsafe.

 

[dollabill420]

No one is saying the python is better than pretreating and aging both work well, all we are saying is direct to tank water change method with prime or similar product works for us. Youself and others are the ones who is trying to say we are toturing our fish by using this method and that our opinions are pointless.

I will look for data later tonight.

I would very much appreciate this, never said opinions are pointless, it's just a pointless debate I don't think it will ever be settled lol it's been an on going debate for so long now it's just not worth it, what ever works for one won't work for another is the problem there is no set "rules" for anything it's s wild west hobby Bahaha. Some data or technical experiences, science based view would be magical no one ever seems to give anything other then it works for me with a python, hey maybe if get a good view may sway me to the darkside lol mite save me dome time in water changing too but I doubt it, I can have my tanks changed before most could get a python out and connect to the tap . Can't wait till someone has a good view on the other side of the subject will be like Christmas

 

[dollabill420]

The burden of proof is on you my friend. I don't know a single person who says that buckets won't work. What I see is people making unsubstantiated claims that python-method is unsafe.

Here is a very brief and extremely rough draft of an article I have been working on, the first bit is boring old stuff but might be worth s read hopefully it fits
and yes I know I have horrible first draft punctuation and paragraphing lol it was just ideas thrown down so the order by times makes absolutely no sense at all.

Aged water vs Straight From Tap

This is a discussion article about both methods of changing aquarium water with a bias towards aging water before using it to do a partial water change.

Aged tap water is water that is poured from the tap and put into a holding container for at least 24 hours to gas off (burn off) chlorine and C02 thru oxygen exchange at the surface and evaporation, it is usually agitated with a water pump or an airstone and heated to the proper temperature using an aquarium heater. This causes the water to be perfect temperature and stable pH for use in an aquarium. It will however not get rid of Chlorimide which some municipal water supplies use to rid of bacteria and parasites. To cure this the use of a commercial de-chlorinator is needed, these can also contain chemicals to add a stress coat to your fish and rid of any traces of heavy metals which can harm fish. This makes it safe to be used as change water in your aquarium. Using this method causes as little water parameter swings as possible which causes stress in fish, including pH, temperature, general hardness, carbonate hardness, ammonia, nitrogen compounds, phosphates, and an assortment of trace elements. Even if a compound is bad such as ammonia if it is reduced dramatically can cause stress to a fish because they slowly started to adapt to these water conditions.

A fish in the wild would not be subjected to these sudden changes as in an aquarium with a small water volume. Lakes, streams, rivers, oceans ect. Have large volumes of water and any changes are slow and gradual, they change minimally from day to day and most not a great deal from season to season in alot of the parts of the world, the surface of bodies of water take the most significant changes but not alot of fish live soley on the surface, but some do. All fish in the wild have adapted to these routines over thousands of years and have become accustom to these swings and in most species is nessicary for breeding and life cycles.

But when a fish is put in captivity either straight from it's natural habitat or from breeders it is in an unnatural setting and the aquarist will realistically never be able to match these conditions and seasonal changes in such a way to not make it harmful, not to mention a tank bred fish hasn't ever been subjected to the wild and will not do good thrown back into the wild at first, but like all will adapt once again because it is perfectly controlled and slow changes compliments of mother nature. So it is easier for an aquarist and the fish to try and keep the most stable conditions possible all year round.

This is why aging tap water is a useful tool in an aquarists toolkit to try and keep a stable environment for their fish to adapt to even if it is out of their natural range.

Using water straight from the tap even if treated with a de-chlorinator will change the parameters of the water in your aquarium when you go to do a patrician water change. An aquarium over time will naturally build up acids in the water to push it towards acidic on the pH scale. Both methods will change this slight ph drop closer back to what the source water is naturally, this is why smaller more frequent water changes will be better rather then larger less frequent water changes with either method that is used. Water that comes naturally out of your tap will often have co2 which makes water acidic and when it is put in an aquarium will fairly drastically go from acidic to alkaline in a matter of hours because an aquarium is usually well vented and has a good oxygen exchange to keep the fish healthy and alive. I've personally seen water go from a ph of 6.1 to 7.3 in under 2 hours well aerated this rapid of z swing will aid in stressing your fish which is not helpful when trying to keep a healthy immune system. An aquarium also will naturally evaporate over time concentrating water hardness and if topped off and evaporated many times will become hard over time, then when a water change is performed it will "thin" out the dissolved salts and this rapid change in water hardness is just as bad if not worse for a fish.There is no difference between the two methods in this effect but frequency of water changes will affect it greatly, small and frequent is the best option for everything in most cases. It is also hard to match the exact temperature of water that comes out of your tap compared to having it pre heated when using the aging process. Having change water about a half degree warmer is always better then a half degree colder fish respond better to a bit warmer then colder temperature change.

When adding water straight from the tap to your tank via a water changing devise such as a python it is also more difficult to add de-chlorinator or anything else you may be trying to add to your change water to affect water parameters. When doing so you have to add full volume of de-chlorinator to the aquarium then add the water in using far more chemicals and subjecting your fish and beneficial bacteria to a strong chemical dose every water change along with a temporary dose of chlorine if present in tap water which will put a strain on your bacteria colonies, chlorine is designed to kill bacteria and in an aquarium is an undesired effect. Compared to pretreating and aging water before use in water changes the chlorine never has a chance to touch the bacteria, also less de-chlorinator is needed because only have to treat the water used for a PWC and not the entire tank.

Say if you do a %50 water change in a 20 gallon, your changing out 10 gallons of water. If you take it straight from the tap which has a ph of 6.3, when aged a ph of 7.1. Say You let your aquarium go a little past it's water change date because of work and a nagging wife wanting you to fix things around thr house and didn't have time. You checked the ph of your tank and acids built up a bit and the reading was 6.8 if you did your normal water change your aquarium would instantly drop to around 6.55, then over the next few hours it would rise to around 7ph, the original was really 7.1 base, 6.8 in tank and 6.3 outta tap so really you just subjected your fish to technically 3 different ph's bouncing back and forth over a short time for a fish. If you did this every water change for years and it will be different all the time because tap water changes from season to season, something eventually will go wrong down the road if nothing a shorter life span, nature doesn't bounce around that much or that quickly it's always slow and gradual. Then add in a miscalculation of temperature because it's the winter time and cold in your house so your skin is cold so the water feels warm, feeling of water temperature all depends if your cold or hot feeling and skin temperature. So that's not accurate so your tank temperature will bounce instantly around to half as much of the difference you are putting in. Also coupled with all the trace element changes, water hardness (which can kill) ,carbonate hardness which will stress if more then 20mg/L per 24 hours, changed instantly. Even a fish used to ammonia and nitrates in the aquarium get a little stress from going to instantly clean water, which is mind blowing if you think about it, but then really makes sense because fish are naturally sensitive due to the stable conditions they come from, some are more equipped to handle quick changes but not alot that are commonly kept, due to inbreeding many are becoming weaker (neon tetra for instance) hardiest little fish through the 80's I even had some as a kid and knew nothing about aquariums and they were perfectly happy and healthy, never even knew about proper water changeing and never even seen an ammonia test only used a ph test twice, now you can barely get them home before one is looking stressed out.

Just using water straight from the tap is most defiantly the easier route to go but is it really worth it? There are easy ways to age water if you get creative, I saw one buddy have what had to be a 1000 gal vat in his basement with a pump in it with a hose coming up to his living room to use for water changes, it doesn't need to be the single bucket with an airstone and heater at a time there are many options. Most of it is personal preference and situation, if your water is the same or really close to what it is aged I'd say "give er son" it will still chemically not be the same as aged because more often then not it came from underground and isn't aged surface water like a lake or river but will be close with small frequent water changes, a fish will handle this no problem, but any chlorine, ph,temp change will not help you any by any means. You wouldnt go to your local fish store buy a fish and come home and dump it in your aquarium water and all with no acclimation would you, dumping in water from the tap isn't that far off. But to his/her own I guess this is purely my opinion and experience from trial and error from the past 20 years of staring into the captivating world in which we call our hobby.

This is a first quick draught and suggestions and addictions are more then welcome, I am by no means an article author ad you can tell from my paragraphs haha, this will be posted for constructive criticism and revised and edited.

 

[LyndaB]

I don't know about anybody else but I say Prime and tap water works because of hands-on experience. If that's not "proof" for you, I could probably write up a statement and have a notary come over to stamp it. Would that suffice?

A very wise woman once said to me "to respectfully disagree with someone is as good as agreeing with them". Ok, it was my mother and she never really said that, but you have to admit, it sounds really good, right?

Play nice or you're all in for a big time out!

 

[kdpuffer]

I use a python with no bad experiences, plus the kids think it's very neat. My fish breed and are happy. As far as stress goes a fish is gonna stress out during a water change no matter the method it's about reducing stress. I find the python to to induce no more stress than a normal syphon and bucket. We all have methods that work for us and success is all the evidence we need. Now if I can have success and it can be achieved in an easier and less time consuming fashion then **** right I'm going that way. If you need proof that the python method works GO BUY ONE. **** build a DIY one with a waterbed fill kit and garden hose, cost like 20 bucks. If you then find you don't like it then you have a spare hose. Everyone has a method so let's leave people to it. I'm getting sick and tired of this forum, everyone argues about who is right and wrong. someone wants an easier way to do a PWC let's suggest our methods and leave it up to them to decide which method to follow, leave the arguments out of it. You don't like the python method that's fine, start a thread about it then if people wanna read it they can, if not then keep it to yourself. My suggestion to the OP is to do what your comfortable with. As for the rest of us " can't we all just get along"

 

[dollabill420]

I don't know about anybody else but I say Prime and tap water works because of hands-on experience. If that's not "proof" for you, I could probably write up a statement and have a notary come over to stamp it. Would that suffice?

A very wise woman once said to me "to respectfully disagree with someone is as good as agreeing with them". Ok, it was my mother and she never really said that, but you have to admit, it sounds really good, right?

Play nice or you're all in for a big time out!

Haha that was awesome it does sound really good, I know using that method has worked time and time again, I'm just looking for more in depth detail, I understand 99% of people would not have this knowledge and test data to show it is nothing but good I'm just looking for that 1% that has put in the time to see how it affects things, like aging water has had for many years and countless arcticles with tests to show it's reconition as a safer method then most, I've just never seen anyone put in the time and do experiments like they have with aging water. Guess it's the nature of taking the easiest route to do something, the "who cares it's easy" attitude is probably holding it back, if anyone finds charts from any lab tests ect, please post for me I would be very interested in reading them along with articles or even someone sitting hunched over their bathroom sink with a wall fill of vials