PWC and Prime

[dollabill420]

I use a python with no bad experiences, plus the kids think it's very neat. My fish breed and are happy. As far as stress goes a fish is gonna stress out during a water change no matter the method it's about reducing stress. I find the python to to induce no more stress than a normal syphon and bucket. We all have methods that work for us and success is all the evidence we need. Now if I can have success and it can be achieved in an easier and less time consuming fashion then **** right I'm going that way. If you need proof that the python method works GO BUY ONE. **** build a DIY one with a waterbed fill kit and garden hose, cost like 20 bucks. If you then find you don't like it then you have a spare hose. Everyone has a method so let's leave people to it. I'm getting sick and tired of this forum, everyone argues about who is right and wrong. someone wants an easier way to do a PWC let's suggest our methods and leave it up to them to decide which method to follow, leave the arguments out of it. You don't like the python method that's fine, start a thread about it then if people wanna read it they can, if not then keep it to yourself. My suggestion to the OP is to do what your comfortable with. As for the rest of us " can't we all just get along"

This is a discussion forum.....what would we discuss, controlled arguments are the way the world works, no one is putting down anyone elses ideas it's just opinions and that's all it will ever be, just opinions and one can believe what ever feels right to them, I believe that jelly beans are the best source for doing a fishless cycles Why? because I can, and you can also disagree because you think this is wrong and then we would have a discussion about why or why not this is a true statement, or we could come to the conclusion that jelly beans are delicious and something delicious and easy to chew must be good for everything under the sun except cycling an aquarium. Who knows where the wonders of open discussion could take our minds, could end up discussing jelly beans vs. Political world leaders getting them stuck in their nose at the UN last saturday, could go anywheres, a heated debate just gets information and opinions out quicker in a scrambled fashion for people to form their own views from the past present and future information they may receive. In the end it's up to ones self weather to think about an opinion or discard it as misinformation, its all up to the receiver man

 

[kdpuffer]

So start a debate thread, I checked this thread to see people's water change methods, not have to read through 3 pages of argument. I'm not alone in this, if you want to debate about pythons vs letting water sit, jellybeans and politicians or who has a bigger caulking gun go ahead but start your own thread and stop cluttering other people's threads.

 

[roundar]

I've just never seen anyone put in the time and do experiments like they have with aging water. Guess it's the nature of taking the easiest route to do something, the "who cares it's easy" attitude is probably holding it back.

The debate is repeatedly being misconstrued.

Primary arguments made by those against the python seem to be as follows:

1. pH swings

Not only is there no evidence to suggest that this is dangerous, it's not helped by the bucket method. My tanks pH is not the same as the pH of the water coming from the tap before OR after it has been aerated.

2. Temperature swings

Again, not only is there no evidence to suggest that small temperature swings are dangerous, this is only applicable when buckets have been brought to the same temp of the tank.(Often warmer than room temperature, therefor requiring a heater.)

3. The chlorine taxes the beneficial bacteria

This is easily debunked by carrying out a python method water change and observing the results.(That being there is no mini-cycle created.)

4. Temporary Chlorine/Heavy Metal exposure is dangerous to fish

This is the only theory that I could possibly get behind. Unfortunately for this argument, millions of gallons of water have been changed with pythons with no evidence presented as of yet to suggest a negative impact on the health of the fish. All heavy metal toxicity tests on fish I've reviewed are carried out over extended periods, not momentary exposure.


The idea that we dismiss negative effects of python method and say "who cares it's easy" is at best a grasping at straws in terms of this debate. Anyone who's seen my posts knows that I seek a scientific backing for everything involving the aquarium. I've presented what I believe to be the scope of this argument, and unless point number 4 is addressed, there is no "debate" only idle speculation. Telling someone that using a python is torture or that their fish need your prayers is ridiculous to say the absolute least.

 

[dollabill420]

So start a debate thread, I checked this thread to see people's water change methods, not have to read through 3 pages of argument. I'm not alone in this, if you want to debate about pythons vs letting water sit, jellybeans and politicians or who has a bigger caulking gun go ahead but start your own thread and stop cluttering other people's threads.

Read the op again, you seem to be the one going off topic by ranting at people because you do not like their views about the original question, it's alot of information given on both sides on safety of different water change methods for the op to read and form an opinion then they can make an informed decision on what to do, saves them alot of leg work and guessing.

 

[jetajockey]

@kdpuffer - Would hate to see you leave a forum because people disagree on things. In a forum where people ask for advice and facts, it's important to be sure that people are accurate, because if not then this place wouldn't be much better than yahoo answers.

It's not a disagreement over which fish is the coolest, it's a disagreement over whether a particular water change method (that MANY people use) is hurting their fish or not. That type of claim can be substantiated with evidence either for it or against it.

@dollabill420

I think one big flaw in your argument is that you assume that ph/temperature changes in nature are always slow and gradual, and this is far from the truth. In the ocean, sure, but many of the fish that we keep are found in very shallow pools, streams, and even ditches and puddles. For around half of the species that I collect locally, one of the most common hotspots is any roadside ditch that has aquatic vegetation growing out of it, which is a sign of constant standing water.

As far as inbred fish being weaker, yeah, they definitely are, but I leave them to darwin. I'm not revolving my life around a certain species because it requires daily wc's or what have you. And as far as breeding goes, if these fish need all kinds of special care then I'm definitely not babying them, because their offspring will probably be just as weak, and I have ethical issues with selling extremely sensitive fish to people, the average aquarist is not prepared to deal with them (this is why I quit breeding electric blue rams).

When doing so you have to add full volume of de-chlorinator to the aquarium then add the water in using far more chemicals and subjecting your fish and beneficial bacteria to a strong chemical dose every water change along with a temporary dose of chlorine if present in tap water which will put a strain on your bacteria colonies, chlorine is designed to kill bacteria and in an aquarium is an undesired effect.

This is also making some big assumptions. First there is the assumption that dechlorinator's "strong chemical dose" actually has a negative affect towards fish and bacteria. In the amounts that are required for dechlorination, I'm going to say it doesn't, the fact that most aquarists use dechlorinators regularly should attest to that as well.
Second, if the chlorine temporarily hitting the tank for a split second actually impacted beneficial bacteria colonies, then people would experience minicycles from using this method, and there would be reports of it.

The entire question at hand is whether or not filling directly from the tap poisons or tortures the fish, not which method is better.

Opinions are not pointless. The claim was made that filling from the tank is poisoning/torturing fish. If it's true, then prove it.

The fact that majority of people use this method regularly should show that it doesn't, because if it did, we wouldn't be doing it.

If you honestly believe that it does hurt the fish, though, I would hope that you'd make the effort to prove it, so that people can be enlightened and follow suit.

 

[dollabill420]

Point number 4 is basically the sum of the entire discussion, exposure of toxins and swings till the water stabilizes in the tank, torture and praying was a bit far out of an opinion, but is just an opinion don't concern yourself with it that much and dismiss it as misconstrued fact in your mind, but maybe in mine and the other posters mind subjecting fish to these swings is a form of torture because we keep these animals captive and they rely on us to do everything in our power to make it as a pleasant experience as possible. I suggest we get back on topic or this will soon be closed, this back and forth slander is leading no where, this topic is pretty well played out now enough for the op to make an informed decision on the methods they will use.

Good day sir

 

[kdpuffer]

And that's fine, go ahead and suggest your method and why. there is no need to trash talk other people's methods and that's what I'm getting at. People commenting that other peoples fish need their prayers is total garbage. As is demanding scientific evidence, who cares, we have our own ways of doing things doesn't mean anyone is wrong, if people want to debate it then start a thread debating the issue where people who want to be apart can be. Hijacking other peoples threads for an argument is BS. that being said I'm done with this, considering I myself have hijacked it to argue about arguing. PEACE

 

[Ray_Dockrey]

Here is my observations for what it's worth. I haven't been doing this long. About six months. I use an Aqueon water changer. Same thing as the Python. I use the same method as others. Remove the water, add the Prime and fill it back up. Turn the filters on and I am done.

My fish don't run and hide when I put the tube in. In fact they will swim up the tube but since the suction is low they can swim back out. Freaked me out the first time I saw them do it. When I dump the prime in they play in it and they love the fresh incoming water. In fact they will all gather at the outlet and play in the incoming water.

I have three tanks and do all the same way. I have a 27, 36 and a 50. Like I said, I am not sure if my way is right or not but from what I see with my fish it works for us.

 

[mfdrookie516]

In case anyone has forgotten... this is in the Freshwater & Brackish - Getting Started forum. Saltwater has absolutely nothing to do with this thread.

That said, I've used a python for the last couple years and haven't had one single issue. Heck, if it weren't for that, my back, and my fish, would not be in the shape they are in today.

 

[mr_X]

My main problem is the use of terminology like "torture" and "praying for your fish". Lets all remember, unless we have shunned the use of gasoline powered engines, eliminated our energy usage and our phosphate laden detergents and soaps, and begun recycling 100% of our disposable goods.... We are all contributing to the torture of fish and the degradation of their natural habitats. These folks are attempting to create safe and healthy environments for their fish. And there is always more than one way to do that.

True, but the subject matter of this thread is what were talking about, and adding chlorine to a tank with livestock in it is in fact putting them through unnecessary stress. Some may call it torture, even though the fish has no idea what is stressing it, but now we're just talking semantics.

Everyone is asking to see the data proving that the chlorine(or whatever harmful substance might be in your tap water) is harming the fish before the prime detoxifies it. I would like to see the data proving that the chlorinated water is immediately safe for fish. Please refer to something more than the label on the bottle.

 

[Mumma.of.two]

As Ive said before: WOW! I didn't mean for this to turn into such a heated debate. I suppose it all comes down to what each individual person 'thinks is best' for there fish. As for myself, it looks like I've got alot to digest before I make up my mind.

 

[mr_X]

no "heat" here. just speaking my mind. that's what these forums are all about.

 

[roundar]

and adding chlorine to a tank with livestock in it is in fact putting them through unnecessary stress.

Unsubstantiated.

I don't disagree that it's possible, despite the overwhelming evidence, but this kind of comment needs to put it its proper place.

Like it's been said already (by me) in this thread, the burden of proof is not on those of us who use pythons as tens of thousands(likely hundreds of thousands) of fish live in tanks where pythons are used and they thrive. The burden of proof is on those who, with no evidence to date, suggest it is somehow torture.

 

[Maya]

As Ive said before: WOW! I didn't mean for this to turn into such a heated debate. I suppose it all comes down to what each individual person 'thinks is best' for there fish. As for myself, it looks like I've got alot to digest before I make up my mind.

Lol. I don't think that this has turned into an overly "heated" debate. There are a lot of very experienced and very respected aquarists here who have different opinions. They believe firmly in what they say but as with any topic.. They generally agree to disagree. The nice thing is that they offer several sides of an argument for posters like yourself to use to formulate their own opinions. Which is the really the key to learning from forums. Both sides have had success with their respective practices. So it is now up to you to take the information presented and make up your own mind. Then you too can join the great debate and offer advice based on your own experience.. Whatever that may be.

 

[mr_X]

Actual Video Showing Man Poisoning $5,000 Worth of Corals and Fish | reef tools


the effects of chlorine on fish.....

 

[Mumma.of.two]

Actual Video Showing Man Poisoning $5,000 Worth of Corals and Fish | reef tools

the effects of chlorine on fish.....

That is awful! But I still don't know what it's got to do with my question. No one is arguing with you about the affects of chlorine on fish.

 

[mr_X]

Unsubstantiated.

I don't disagree that it's possible, despite the overwhelming evidence, but this kind of comment needs to put it its proper place.

Like it's been said already (by me) in this thread, the burden of proof is not on those of us who use pythons as tens of thousands(likely hundreds of thousands) of fish live in tanks where pythons are used and they thrive. The burden of proof is on those who, with no evidence to date, suggest it is somehow torture.

dis guy! LOL. zap zap zap makkkee texxtt longger......

 

[Mumma.of.two]

dis guy! LOL. zap zap zap makkkee texxtt longger......

Get over it and start ur own thread. I just wanted some answers and opinions not ppl taking stabs at each other. I've read your suggestion and so has everyone else. I've also read everyone else's opinions and done my own research on the subject. It's up to me! and everyone else I make up their own mind now.

 

[mr_X]

get over what? no one is taking stabs at anyone, as far as i have seen. this is a public forum where people discuss the hobby. go for it! make up your mind. i'm just supplying information where others are just saying "it works because my fish didn't die".

 

[Mumma.of.two]

And I'm just saying your your opinion and information has been noted.