'scaping and too many species? (Long post, pictures.)

[czcz]

I know this tank looks pretty decent, and I am showing off a little, but I am not happy with the tank. I think I can get better health and a more cohesive 'scape by limiting species. I am asking for your thoughts with layout and what to keep -- all ideas are welcomed. I am attempting Dutch aquascaping because I have accepted that I suck with hardscaping.

Anyway, this is what 20 species in 8gals looks like:

There is not a lot of space, and I still want to keep many species to create depth. This tank is approx. 6.5inches deep:

I grow everything out from bits because I am a moron who likes too many plants, and find its the best way to get it all to blend nice. This is what it looked like about a month ago:

I am okay hacking it all down and filling it out again for a new layout. I will attempt to explain my ideas and thoughts.

Here is the left side.

I am considering moving out the L. repens 'Rubin' since I cannot keep it small, even with regular trimming, but I am somewhat attached to it. I am also considering ripping all of these plants out to spread the rest of the tank out. I think the E. diversifolia. the tall dark green plant, and R. rotundifolia "green" need to stay, though. The "Mermaid Weed" probably has to go?

Here is right center.

Left to right in the back is Ludwigia brevipes, P. stellata "narrow leaf", L. "Cuba" and P. stellata "broad leaf." The last three grow much too big for my tank, and I keep ditching them after grow out while saving a side shoot or two. My thought with this grouping is I would buy time while letting them squeeze in naturally. I thought it would be cool to see their similar leaf shapes beside one another. Now I think they just look too similar and the beauty of each is lost. So what do you think? Let them grow out or pull them and spread the rest of the tank out?

(Tangent for Travis and whomever. You may find it interesting that the P. stellata "narrow leaf" is the bit I was growing emersed in Nov. I neglected it and it shrivled up, but quickly bounced back to this.)

Here is the far right. I am thinking of filling the gap with a road of Glosso, instead of the ET and HM that is in already on this side.

I am keeping Isotes japonica because it was a gift and I had previously treated it badly in medium light. I like the Myriophyllum sp. because it will help hide the plumbing, but am okay with ditching it.

Lastly, I find pruning relaxing, and so do not mind a high maintenence layout. I thought the three carpets made the tank look bigger, but also suspect the effect is lost. From experience I think I can keep the Stargrass manageable, but maybe I need to just replace it with driftwood or something.

TIA,
Joe

 

[travis simonson]

I find pruning relaxing, and so do not mind a high maintenence layout.

A man after my own heart. I love stem plants. I can't get enough of them. They are, by far, the best looking plants one can grow. I understand your addiction Joe.

My first advice for your aquascape may be something completely out of order:

Add some levels to your tank, build something in it. It is too flat. The plants are all unbelievably healthy, but there is no structure to the scape. Get some vertical action going.

I love H. zosterifolia too. I'm cultivating a new bunch in my new aquascape too. I love the way it shapes

You have proven that you can grow dang near anything, now use it. Juxtapose some colors and leaf shapes next to each other. You should look into some BIG leaf shapes. Like me, you have a ton of wicked small-leaved hard-to-grow plants that all blend into each other when you put them together. Find a few big-leaf-type plants to break up your 10.0 level-of-difficulty plants. It isn't a sin to grow a few Crypts you know

Nice work Joe. Looks darn good.

Oh, and look into getting a slightly higher mega-pixel rated camera. I know that tank would look just wicked with a 5.1 MP shot

 

[travis simonson]

Oh, and thanks for keeping the I. japonica sample That's one I wouldn't want to see disappear

 

[czcz]

Very helpful as always. Thank you, hero.

 

[Hoovercat]

GET A BIGGER TANK!!!!

 

[Purrbox]

I like Travis' suggestions to get some levels into the scape to help break things up. A nice piece of driftwood or some interesting stones might help to provide a focal point to work your plants around.

Unfortunately I'm not real familiar with a lot of the plants in your tank, so I'm having a hard time figuring out which is which. Glad to hear that the Rotala Rotundifolia "Green" is staying. It's such a lovely plant.

If you go with a piece of driftwood or some rocks as a focal point, that might provide some nice definition as to where to grow the Elatine Triandre and the Glosso. Both look really nice in your tank, so I'd hate to see either go. Perhaps an isolated glen of Elatine Triandre and the rest of the forground with Glosso.

Another idea would be to find a nice red plant for a splash of color. I thought I saw some in the pic where you had cut everything back, but in the grown out pic I didn't see it.

I'm really looking forward to seeing what you do with this tank, please keep us updated!

 

[sherry]

I agree with the call for a good piece of driftwood here... it would add a cohesive focal point and could tie together any number of species.

I have found that planting "behind" driftwood is tough because it casts a shadow. This is where Travis' levels idea might work... since the driftwood could also hide a dyi terrace.

then you could use the star grass, kept trimmed, in front of the wood... and sort of have a more defined foreground and background without looking like everyone else with just a thatch of glosso.

anyway.. it's an idea

I love your plants and am in awe of your ability to grow them

 

[czcz]

Hoovercat -- Heh. My dream actually is to move this rivertank and connected emersed tank theme to a 40breeder some day, then turn this set-up into a nano reef for inverts, but I am a few months away at least. I cannot make the change until I know more and build up the energy to do all the DIY necessary, as well as invest in pressurized. I am too cheap and lazy for your perfect solution

Purrbox -- Thank you. The substrate is sloped front to back by about an inch, but you're right, I need more defined levels. Maybe I can use partially burried rocks to keep up the terraces while adding some hardscape to the tank. I used to have driftwood in here but was never satisfied with it. Now I am thinking very thin pieces of it may help it look bigger while incorporating everyone's ideas, and it is worth another try.

I had switched a couple stem plants across my high light tanks. I think your point about deeper reds in the focal point and Travis's technique with bigger leaves will meet by moving L. repens "Rubin" closer to the center.

Sherry -- Thank you for the kind words. The carpets have a while to go before they fill out and blend. When I had driftwood in there I could not do more than grow stems behind it and carpet in front -- the tank is just too narrow. I think your idea but with bushes of stargrass around the wood looks nice. I'll try hunting for the right pieces.

Appreciated. I will keep the forum up to date. I will probably wait until I have more carpet to replant before ripping it all out to build the terraces and next layout. If I cannot find the right hardscape material I will probably try to continue with the Dutch style after your ides sink in. Thank you!
Joe

 

[sherry]

actually it is the problem of growing things "behind" drift wood which made me think of taking Travis' ideas of levels and using that too.. so behind the driftwood will really be just a little higher and behind and not so shaded.

I also have to say I love your tank now... it is just fun to fiddle and dream

 

[crazycat]

overall, i think your tank looks great. and i have to ditto everything travis said. i'd also add that you have tall plants on either side of your tank, but nothing growing in the background in the middle. so there is a strong focus on the sides, but not so much on the middle. i think you need a plant that will grow to the top of the tank and form more of a curtain or backdrop--something at least to draw the eye towards the center where you have so many beautiful plants as well. as for travis' comments about depth--i totally agree--i just rescaped my tank with those very same comments from that very same guy--and am SO much happier with it. i built up the back substrate a lot, and put a lot of tall plants back there, leaving the more delicate plants in the mid and foreground. i do have some tall plants mid ground--just to break up the space. i think you need to think of it like a renaissance painting--leading the viewers eye around the space in a fluid but controlled way. right now i think the eyes slide to the edges and fall off without seeing so much of the middle.

a few small choice pieces of dritwood could help--especially if you stagger them foreground and background to creat the illusion of depth. if you're not into driftwood, i always fin lace rock beautiful, and a lot of plants like to attach to it.

seriously--JMO!

 

[workfortheman]

guys, all joe wants to do is grow out, propogate, and grow out again as many species as possible in the amount of space he has, and you say "get some driftwood"!?!?!?!?

You have proven that you can grow dang near anything, now use it. Juxtapose some colors and leaf shapes next to each other. You should look into some BIG leaf shapes. Like me, you have a ton of wicked small-leaved hard-to-grow plants that all blend into each other when you put them together. Find a few big-leaf-type plants to break up your 10.0 level-of-difficulty plants. It isn't a sin to grow a few Crypts you know

This is the best I can give, too. Get some crypts, man!! There are such a thing as hard to grow crypts, you know! Then again, you might prune them to death . . . .

Personally I think you've done a great job getting a lower foreground and a higher background, given your depth! You just need something besides GREEN!!!

 

[crazycat]

whoa!

joe asked for ideas concerning layout and aquascaping "all ideas welcome". i don't think what anyone said here was offensive or off point. all "criticism", if you can even call it that, was purely constructive and attempted to address the issue joe posed. we all have different opinions on aesthetics, and joe asked for them. it's up to him to decide what he wants to do. layout-wise, some driftwood or rock could help the composition of the tank, and create natural divisions between species of plants that might otherwise blend in with each other. so could interspersing large leaved plants as travis suggests. they're both equally viable solutions, and it really depends on what joes finds aesthetically and functionally pleasing. some of us take a more scientific approach to planted tanks and relish the challenge posed by growing various species. some of us are more aesthetically inclined and look at the overall composition and visual design of the tank, and choose plants and decor more for that reason. in my opinion, joe's post asked for all opinions. and they were given.

but, truly, none of the comments deserved YOUR response which was rude and dismissive.

JOE--sorry if my comments in particular offended you or if i didn't understand your request. i think your tank is beautiful and am jealous of your tonina (mine is doing ok--but not great).

 

[TankGirl]

I don't think anyone has been particularly rude, but keep in mind that in this written context sometimes benign comments, meant to be constructive, can come across with a tone that is not intended. Smilies go a long way to assist with this.

As for my comments, I agree with much of what has been stated above - there are a lot of spiky, short-leaved plants, stem and rosette, and some plants with different growth habits interspersed will help show off each type of plant better. Finding broad-leaved plants can be hard for a smaller tank, and I usually stick with the dwarf lily bulbs (I know, elite plantkeepers avoid this one!), which often develop a lovely pink/deep red color, to break up some of the green. Ozelot sword can sometimes be kept small, also, and the leaves are less strappy than the rubin, though they have related colors. A rock or other hardscape strategically placed can benefit the esthetic of a tank as well, but in your case it will be obscured by the lush plant growth very quickly, lol!

 

[czcz]

I think we are all friends here, and I certainly do not mind pointed criticism should anyone post it. As you can see, I am not artistically inclined.

crazycat -- all the stem plants, including the Stargrass midground, will fill up the whole back section if I let it. The gap right center will be filled when the Pogostemon and Ludwigia grows out, and they are thick stemmed plants with very long leaves. My hope is that section will look much farther back than the center. I am trying to think in terms of leading the eye, and it is helping. Thank you.

Workfortheman -- it seems you can relate to the propogation mindset I can get more color out of the plants... will post pics with growout. Added Crypt wendtii to the C. willisi x lucens (I think) right center. I have no hard to grow crypts If I am lucky I will get to try C. nurii in here, but am trying to be realistic about my chances of growing it.

TG - Your post got me eyeing Echinodorus parviflorus 'Tropica', which Plantgeek calls a foreground plant: http://www.tropica.com/productcard.asp?id=071E I still have H. corymbosa "compacta" barely living in emersed growth, and may move it in. My mindset at this moment is to remove species instead of adding... your post and others, while looking around at my tanks, makes me think its time to dump more species, even. :/

__

So here it is after messing with it tonight. A lot of the tips have closed already Just messing with what's already there while waiting for inspiration for the next layout.

Removed Eichhornia diversifolia, Proserpinaca palustris -- Mermaid weed, and Myriophyllum sp. Trimmed L. brevipes and have it replacing H. zosterifolia (Stargrass) center to right. I think the color may be nice leading to the Crypts and Pogostemon sp, but will see. I am thinking of running Hydrocotyle verticillata and Glosso up the left side, but might stick with just Glosso. The R. rotundifolias are in opposite corners and I plan to grow them into triangular bushes (like this).

Sloped up the back by ~2" in the corners and left center, with some ugly rocks underneath to keep it in place. As with the old slope, I am still tempted to just use it for increased planting space, but I am trying, really Still keeping my eyes open for thin branchy pieces of driftwood I can use in here. Will wait it out a couple days and decide if I am moving or putting back anything. Liking it more: I know it will look better once it grows out. Still appreciate suggestions and ideas.

 

[crazycat]

i like it too. i didn't realize you had ludwigia growing. mine totally takes over my tank--i prune gret buckets of it every few weeks or so--and the redness of the leaves will bring some more nice color to the tank. i stand by what i said about driftwood--and your idea of thin branchy pieces could be quite dramatic without taking up too much space. i also like how the dark color of the wood cretes a nice contrast against the green of the plants, and the branchy pices could be used to create some natural divisions in the space.. JMO of course ... i also like travis' suggestion of a crypt--i have never been a crypt love, but travis sent me a really small crypt wenditi (red), which has turned into a monster! but it's really quite beautiful, with very wide, crinkly leaves, which are a deep deep burgundy brown. it really helps color-wise in the tank, and the wide leaves makes a nice contrast against the more delicate myriophyllum matrogrossense, stargrass, myriophyllum aquaticum (parrots feeather) and cambomba. hey what about limnophila aromatica? that's a pretty dense plant with that lovely magenta color to it? too pedestrian?

 

[sherry]

I like the way this is looking.. I need to be this brave and edit edit edit my own tank

 

[BlazerFRS]

I think you've def. made an improvement.... but I liked it before too

I'd aim for some more red if I were you, as others have suggested. Alternanthera reineckii is easy to grow and obtian, but what it lacks in difficulty I think it makes up for in looks.

I'm sure there's similar Alternanthera that are much more taxing to maintain, and would look even better

Good luck czcz! Your small tank is an inspiration to those of us stuck with a small space.

What is that puppy lit with? Is that the one with the AHsupply 2x13w bright kit?

 

[czcz]

crazycat, I think Limnophila aromatica looks beautiful, but have only seen it in pics. I would try it if I was not already keeping too many plants that grow out of my tank I moved in large C. wendtii var bronze and C. becketti last night, and the bigger leaf shape was striking but the color was too much for me at the moment. I hope the C. wendtii "green" addition grows well and compact enough to add another shade of green while providing an anchor shape-wise, since the stuff in there can show nice shades of red, orange, yellow, and purple. As I type this I realize I have no idea how to describe what I am thinking... I'll post pics after messing with my dosing and grow out.

BlazerFRS, I used to get this great red/burgundy (similar to C. wendtii var bronze) out of A. reineckii, but I am kind of over that plant. Great suggestion though... it's the much better plant than the P. stellatas considering my tank size. I may go back to it or a variant in the future.

This is the one with the 2x13w Bright kit, which is on its own timer. Also have 20w NO squeezed over it. The bulb over the .5g nano is a 23w spiral CFL screw-in, and puts a bit of light into the 8g, even with the shade. These two bulbs (NO and screw-in CFL) are on a second timer. Lights run concurrently for about 6 hours (each timer runs for 9 hours) during grow out, then plan to adjust it to slow down growth.

Thanks again!
Joe

 

[czcz]

Pics to better show your suggestions in effect, and after daily Fe dosing to .3ppm while crashing N (only bumped up to 10ppm twice this week). Also got a new Hillstream today

Same layout as above after minor trimming. Only change is moving E. diversifolia back in (far left) because I have no where else for it, and making the sloped substrate look higher by pushing it down up front..

Flash shows the colors in the center better. I am running 6500K and 6700K above the tank now, and may switch to 10000K to avoid the washout.

Left center L-R is Ludwigia inclinata, Stargrass, Bacopa australis finally peeking up, and Ludwigia repens "Rubin."

L. repens "Rubin," Stargrass, and Ludwigia brevipes. I hope to get the latter more of a burgundy.

L. brevipes, Pogostemon stellata "narrow leaf," ET, Ludwigia inclinata verticillata "Cuba" (obscured and barely holding on... I hope it does not get choked out), P. stellata "broad leaf," and the Crypts.

I am liking it very much and find moving the larger leafed L. repens "Rubin" and sloping the most helpful suggestions so far. I will post pics after it grows out, and do not plan on moving in or out anything. Thank you!

Joe

 

[Purrbox]

It's definately looking a lot more scaped now. I'm really looking forward to seeing how it looks once things have a chance to grow in.