Thoughts on canister filters

[aqua_holic]

What on earth do you have in your 27 gallon tank that requires a turnover rate of 24 times an hour??? I think that's the highest of which I have ever heard.

 

[Coursair]

I'm having problems with my eheim 2236 canister filter. It hasn't been able to pump the GPH it is rated for. I have cleaned it so many times it's mind numbing. I emailed the company and they finally replied that I need to use eheim filter pads.... it doesn't help. then I got upset and told them what I thought. No more emails. Just saying, do your research, read customer reviews on Amazon. Be careful.

I don't know if anyone addressed your issue. The advertised GPH is through an empty canister without media if I remember correctly. You should always by double the rated filtration on the box for most tanks. 4× filtration for Goldfish.

Once you have all your media in there and any debris it will significantly affect the flow rate. I read about this before buying my first canister and my club members agree.



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[aqua_holic]

If I'm not mistaken, eheim is the only manufacturer that lists flow rates of filters full of media. If it's not them it's someone else - one does this.


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[ScotJudd]

Was it only me that winced when reading previous posts that they clean their filter sponges under tap water?


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[aqua_holic]

Was it only me that winced when reading previous posts that they clean their filter sponges under tap water?


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I'm assuming that you have never cleaned your media in tap water. There are lots of people who clean their media in tap water - really not something to wince about. It's not the cardinal sin that those who do not use tap water make it out to be.

 

[treemanone2003]

Do not put words in my mouth. I never once said it was the lone contributor to poor water quality. I said that it can have a great impact on it and water changes can't completely compensate for a canister turning in to a nitrate factory. As stated I have seen tanks with massive weekly water changes go from 80ppm to 10ppm nitrate just by cleaning the neglected canister. I do this for a living, I have seen it happen.

Debris may sink right away but it also dissolves and breaks down. If 'most of it ended up on the bottom' then our filters wouldn't catch much to begin with.

Gravel can certainly be just as bad of a nitrate factory if neglected, maybe even worse in some tanks. That is one of my main reasons for usually using sand. The sand keeps it on top and the flow keeps stuff moving until the filters grab it. In these tanks very little ends up in the substrate and at most there a couple small, easily removed spots where debris collects on top.

"If it was equal, it would be recommended to clean the canister more often. Instead, the issue of a good gravel vac comes up more frequently than cleaning a canister."
By who? People on forums? Everyone is perfect and no one has misinformation and misconceptions? I am bringing it up. I am saying to clean filters more often (monthly). I am also saying to vacuum gravel weekly if you have it or better yet use sand. But you don't agree with me so I guess I don't get counted in any of that.

If you don't agree just try it. Check your nitrate and then clean the canister that hasn't been touched in 6 months and check the nitrate a couple times in the week following. Maybe in your tank it won't make a difference, maybe it will. But I would never recommend to someone to NOT remove all the debris that is being collected by a canister. There is nothing to be gained by neglecting it. You paid good money for a canister. It works hard to collect that stuff. Get it out.

I don't feel that I put words in your mouth. I feel the fact that you only stated in that post "If you don't, it just rots which ruins your water quality." is a very misleading statement to which I addressed.

I don't deny cleaning filters more often is beneficial but when WC's and gravel vacs are done more frequently, it negates the amount of time that must be spent on (canister) filters therefore making the hobby a bit more enjoyable.

I really don't need to check my nitrates around filter maintenance for a couple of reasons.
1- I know what my filter is capable of
2- I control nitrates thru WC's
3- I can tell you about my tank by the smell
4- My water parameters and husbandry are impeccable
5- I keep Discus


I'm not trying to be rude by any means. I guess I expected a more "professional" explanation the first time. My apologies


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[Delapool]

Was it only me that winced when reading previous posts that they clean their filter sponges under tap water?


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Lol - following there. If the person knows what they are doing I think it can be done (since I do that as well) but I generally don't suggest it and favour having two filters with alternate cleans going just in case.

Edit - hit reply too early. I think if you are doing that than you have to assume bb population will take a large hit.

 

[Ricky 1]

I must be getting old, I was led to believe it was written in stone not to clean filters in tap water, that it would cause a spike by killing most of the bacteria........so what am I to believe??

 

[Delapool]

I must be getting old, I was led to believe it was written in stone not to clean filters in tap water, that it would cause a spike by killing most of the bacteria........so what am I to believe??

It will or at least it should. I could never suggest it.

FYI.

I run two canisters and an internal filter (more for mechanical cleaning than anything). Each time I clean a canister filter, everything gets blasted with the outdoor hose. Biomedia, foam, wool, etc - the lot. I've doubled the amount of biomedia in each filter and it is possible the tap water doesn't penetrate this well. Not sure. Ammonia never seems to increase though after a filter clean and is always 0. That's good but it bugs me as I always assume the entire bb population has been wiped out for the filter. Sometime I will add bacteria in a bottle but not always so I have discounted that.

 

[aqua_holic]

I must be getting old, I was led to believe it was written in stone not to clean filters in tap water, that it would cause a spike by killing most of the bacteria........so what am I to believe??

Ricky it is most definitely not written in stone. There are VERY few things in fish keeping that are.

I run multiple filters on my show tanks and thoroughly clean them all at the same time. I've never had a spike on any tank. Does it kill some bacteria? Sure, some. But people WAAAAAAAAAY overestimate how long it takes to do real damage. For the short amount of time it takes to clean out the media, no appreciable damage gets done. Now if you were to soak your media in tap water for an extended period of time, that would be another matter. I've been doing this for years on dozens of tanks ranging from 2.5 to 125 gallons, with single filters, dual and even triple filters, with sand, gravel and bare bottom tanks.

You can believe those that have led you to believe that, that do not wash their media in tap water....or you can believe those of us that do

 

[1998golfer]

I must be getting old, I was led to believe it was written in stone not to clean filters in tap water, that it would cause a spike by killing most of the bacteria........so what am I to believe??

I, for one, only clean the filter pads themselves (mechanical) but have plenty of biomedia to supplement... a tray of ceramic rings in my 528gph canister and a fluval c3 with 3x the normal amount of c-nodes is plenty for my light stocking, regardless of the small amount of BB that is killed on my mechanical filter pads every other week or so.

 

[Delapool]

Ricky it is most definitely not written in stone. There are VERY few things in fish keeping that are.

I run multiple filters on my show tanks and thoroughly clean them all at the same time. I've never had a spike on any tank. Does it kill some bacteria? Sure, some. But people WAAAAAAAAAY overestimate how long it takes to do real damage. For the short amount of time it takes to clean out the media, no appreciable damage gets done. Now if you were to soak your media in tap water for an extended period of time, that would be another matter. I've been doing this for years on dozens of tanks ranging from 2.5 to 125 gallons, with single filters, dual and even triple filters, with sand, gravel and bare bottom tanks.

You can believe those that have led you to believe that, that do not wash their media in tap water....or you can believe those of us that do

If I understand correctly, you have been doing tap-water filter cleans on bare bottom tanks as well?

I had wondered if I had more bacteria in gravel than I thought or the chemicals in Australian tap water isn't as strong or something.

I do make the biomedia cleans pretty quick (a squirt and that's it). The media wouldn't get a chance to dry out as well.

I did manage to get a horrific mini cycle once so guess it must be possible to kill them off if you really try. In that case I was having impeller problems on a single filter for the tank. The filter got pulled apart and mucked around with 3 or 4 times over 6 weeks.

 

[aqua_holic]

Yes I do them on my 2 bare bottom tanks too. Biomedia only ever needs a quick rinse to get clean - no more than 5 seconds. The main focus when I clean is the sponges.

Too, I usually fast the tank for a couple days after my filter cleanings, just as a safeguard - no need to add to the bioload immediately afterwards. I used to dose prime for a couple days after, just in case, but have stopped doing that. Wouldn't be a bad idea to do though, until you get a feel for how the system responds.

It's certainly possible to do real damage. While I have done and do this on a variety of setups, the common theme to them all is big filtration. Not that big filtration means you have all that much more bacteria, but there is room for growth. The bacteria colony is fluid, not static. What I suspect happens is this. Some bacteria dies off, which promotes explosive growth to make up the difference. Then the bacteria colony shrinks back down to its equilibrium size. I suspect that it's a classic over compensation for the temporary over abundance of resources. It's all about competition. In a system that is near full capacity, I question whether it can absorb the hit the same way because there's just not the real estate to accommodate that kind of growth.

That's my reverse engineered theory anyhow.

 

[ProAquarist]

I don't worry about tap on media. I routinely clean it under tap, that is how you get it the cleanest. I don't think tap is as bad as you would think, after all you can't put tap water on your kitchen counter to sterilize it, so why think a few minutes of rinsing would do the same thing.

I would be more worried about running it under really hot water.

"...being the lone contributor to poor water quality." This is what was putting words in my mouth. I would be the last person to say that anything besides water changes (or lack thereof) would be the sole contributor to poor water quality, but this doesn't mean that other things (like neglected gravel beds or filters) can't be significant contributing factors). I am sorry if my first explanation wasn't 'professional' enough. I try not to write an essay to every response. I am sorry and thank you for catching it if it did come across differently than intended.

 

[aqua_holic]

There are a lot of well meaning people that say things that aren't always true (unbeknownst to them) in an effort to keep newbies on the straight and narrow. Which is a good thing. But with experience comes perspective and understanding, and that usually causes people to reevaluate what they "know". It's like a rite of passage. The old way is only wrong once you realize it's wrong. Until then it's right.

 

[Delapool]

The old way is only wrong once you realize it's wrong. Until then it's right.

So two wrongs can make a right?! Er, I'll see myself out - slow day here.

 

[Delapool]

Yes I do them on my 2 bare bottom tanks too. Biomedia only ever needs a quick rinse to get clean - no more than 5 seconds. The main focus when I clean is the sponges.

Too, I usually fast the tank for a couple days after my filter cleanings, just as a safeguard - no need to add to the bioload immediately afterwards. I used to dose prime for a couple days after, just in case, but have stopped doing that. Wouldn't be a bad idea to do though, until you get a feel for how the system responds.

It's certainly possible to do real damage. While I have done and do this on a variety of setups, the common theme to them all is big filtration. Not that big filtration means you have all that much more bacteria, but there is room for growth. The bacteria colony is fluid, not static. What I suspect happens is this. Some bacteria dies off, which promotes explosive growth to make up the difference. Then the bacteria colony shrinks back down to its equilibrium size. I suspect that it's a classic over compensation for the temporary over abundance of resources. It's all about competition. In a system that is near full capacity, I question whether it can absorb the hit the same way because there's just not the real estate to accommodate that kind of growth.

That's my reverse engineered theory anyhow.

Thanks for the reply - this is pretty interesting. I've wondered if maybe I'm not testing quickly enough even though autotrophic bacteria are meant to divide at a slower rate. I've basically tested at 6 hr intervals and got nothing on ammonia.

I've also wondered on bacteria growth and if the population shrinks or some goes dormant or they all struggle on using a reduced food source??

 

[aqua_holic]

Two wrongs can lead to a right, with a lot of luck. What I really meant was that people shouldn't do things that they are not comfortable doing. Just because we use tap water doesn't mean that everyone should, regardless of whether they could or not.

It's like the inch per gallon stocking rule - it's good for beginners, as long as they understand that it's for small schooling fish and not oscars and goldfish. It gets them thinking about the adult size of the fish which is a good thing. However, with experience they learn that stocking involves way more than just adding up fish lengths. That's the rite of passage - understanding that different fish have different size requirements that are independent of the fishs size.

 

[aqua_holic]

Thanks for the reply - this is pretty interesting. I've wondered if maybe I'm not testing quickly enough even though autotrophic bacteria are meant to divide at a slower rate. I've basically tested at 6 hr intervals and got nothing on ammonia.

I've also wondered on bacteria growth and if the population shrinks or some goes dormant or they all struggle on using a reduced food source??

The BB are among the slowest growing bacterias, doubling in size in 24 hours. For comparison I believe that ecoli doubles in several minutes. So theoretically you could lose half your bacteria colony and have them replaced the next day. That would be maximum efficiency. I have combined tanks before, increasing the bioload by an estimated 35-40% and not had a problem.

The life of bacteria is a fast one - they are constantly dying and reproducing. I do believe that in a big filtration system that they are all struggling to survive, and that in a small filtration system they are fat and happy, for lack of a better term. I think it's better to have bacteria that are hungry for more rather than bacteria that are working hard to keep up. I think that that is the buffer that keeps a tank stable - having ample room for bacteria growth.

 

[Delapool]

Out of interest has anyone seen any articles how much bacteria are needed to treat say x volume at y ppm ammonia or nitrite?