trying to get the advantages of saltwater in freshwater

[GodFan]

I love how saltwater tanks are so alive. Like everything is alive. In every corner and every tiny crack in the rock sand everything some little crab shrimp or snail is busy doing crab shrimp or snail things.
Unfortunatly for those of us who dont have the time to upkeep a saltie tank we are limited. However I want to try and build a tank like this in freshwater!
Here is the proposed plan:

20 gallon tall aquarium
Dirt with gravel floramax ecocomplete cap
Live plants EVERYWHERE
Some rocks and driftwood

Stock:
Thai micro crabs
Neo shrimp
Cpo
Golden clam
Filter feeding shrimp
Mts
Assassin snails
Hillstram loaches
Stiphon gobies
A pair of badis (in debate currently)

I figure this would make for a VERY lively tank! I think everything is compatable.

My main question is about the badis. I would like a pair of say blue badis. Would they eat the small inverts? I like them because the last badis I had was a different species and he lived in a cave we made. It was very cool to see his head sticking out of the cave. I will have a cave obviously

So suggestions and thoughts welcome!

Thanks and God bless!

 

[Wy Renegade]

I really love the concept myself of a freshwater tank that incorporates the ecology and biodiversity that are present in saltwater tanks. However, in looking at attempting this in freshwater, I would throw up a couple of cautions/thoughts as well. Having kept saltwater for years, I am fully aware that in the saltwater realm, individuals deal constantly with the introduction of "undesirables" into their systems. Things like nuisiance algae (both micro and macro), anemonies, shrimp, various worms, and other "undesirables" have the potential to appear seemingly by magic. Additionally, In my personal experience it is much easier to keep these biologically diverse system successfully in a large system rather than a small system.

My first concern is in regards to the size of the system you are preposing.

Also, if one were to attempt this in freshwater, one must also be willing to work with the very real possibility of the potential introduction of undesirable creatures as well. And in fact must become open-minded about what is and isn't desirable.

In looking over your list, it appears that you have a very high concentration of filter-feeding invertebrates. How are you proposing to successfully maintain these creatures while not polluting your tank with excessively high nutrients from overfeeding?

I'm not sure that live plants everywhere is really going to be the answer to your desire. In a saltwater system many of the invertebrates which are present are maintained not by the existence of plants or even macroalgaes, but by the presence of phyto and zooplanktonic. It would seem to me that they nutrients needed for both are in fact in direct competion?

I know little about most of the vertebrates that you are proposing to include other than the Hillstream loaches. From what I've seen regarding these loaches, you will need to incorperate extremely high flow into your 20 gallon tank. This is most typically accomplished through the use of powerheads and some type of manifold system.

I'll be following along to see what you end up coming up with.

 

[Rivercats]

That high water flow is also not conducive to most of the inverts listed. Filter feeding inverts need some flow but not the type current the Hillstream loaches prefer. Also temps can be a factor which you will have to check per species.

I'm not a fan at all of clams as I found a long time ago they can be doing good for quite some time if you can get them to live and then they often have a sudden die off. And there is nothing worse than the smell of those clams if they die. It's really bad.

I actually have some Blue Cobalt Gobies which are in the Stiphon goby family and you don't want them in a dirted tank. They can dig and actually need to have suitable substrate to dig in. Ours are in a tank with Eco Complete Fine, which is like a slightly larger grain of sand but is very light weight. The males are constantly digging new burrows, filling others in and the females tend to use the holes and burrows the males aren't using. Also males can be very aggressive with each other. I keep Dwarf Anchor Cats in with them without issue. Another thing about them is you have to have a tight fitting lid. You even have to cover any tiny openings as they can walk right up the glass and out of the tank. Ours are in a rimless Nuvo with a glass cover and overflows so nothing is in the tank. We had to make a screen cover that allowed for water to pass through the overflow but not the gobies. Then when that was blocked off they walked up the glass and out the 1/4" opening between the glass top and the tank edge so we had to get creative to block that off. Now they are good little gobies and stay in the tank and not the back sump. If you do this type tank you are going to really have to do some extensive research in order to make it work.

 

[GodFan]

Thanks everyone! I had not considered all of those things. I am a bit confused on one point: I thought I had only picked 2 filter feeding species. The clam and the filter shrimp. Did I choose others as well?
I didnt realize the loaches required THAT much flow. If that is the case I will need to find something else. Also the stiphon gobies will need to be replaced. I am interested in hearing suggestions.
As far as the badis pair. Wih the small mouths badis have would the thai micro crabs be safe? I figured they would be byt I want to be sure. If not I could maybe switch to dario dario instead and hopefully get the same behaviour.
I also understand the concept of hitchhikers. I do not know how to really prevent them though. Some dont bother me like limpets which I always seem to have. Some like leeches will not be tolerated lol

 

[Rivercats]

I think the crabs are filter feeders. I was considering some for one of the nano fish tanks. Badis are prey hunters and depending they could pick at the crabs. You'd be better off IMO of going with something like Chili or Neon Rasbora's.

The only way to prevent hitch hikers is to dip/soak plants in a peroxide mix before introducing them into your tank.

 

[Wy Renegade]

Are you planning to heat your tank or are you considering unheated? I have a very self-sufficient tank that currently contains white cloud minnows. Given the size of the tank you are considering, these might be a viable option as well. I've not tried them with invertebrates in all honesty, although I do plan to introduce some freshwater scuds to the system as well as pond snails to the tank soon.

 

[GodFan]

I think the crabs are filter feeders. I was considering some for one of the nano fish tanks. Badis are prey hunters and depending they could pick at the crabs. You'd be better off IMO of going with something like Chili or Neon Rasbora's.

The only way to prevent hitch hikers is to dip/soak plants in a peroxide mix before introducing them into your tank.

Ok thanks! Maybe no filter shrimp if that is the case. Dario dario wouldnt hurt the micros right? Ive never seen them mess with rcs and I think I had them with cpos once. I am trying to get that behavior of some of the larger badis that stake out a cave and just peek out.
I could use my 25 tall instead of a 20 tall if there would be any advantage.

 

[GodFan]

Are you planning to heat your tank or are you considering unheated? I have a very self-sufficient tank that currently contains white cloud minnows. Given the size of the tank you are considering, these might be a viable option as well. I've not tried them with invertebrates in all honesty, although I do plan to introduce some freshwater scuds to the system as well as pond snails to the tank soon.

You posted while I was typing! Lol I assumed I would have to heat it with the planned stock?

 

[GodFan]

Well I have been thinking (dangerous pastime). So I was thinking I will use a heater and shoot for 74ish. I wajt go just go ahead and make this my nano tank. So stock would be:
4 x scarlet badis
CPOs
Thai micro crabs
Rcs
Moth catfish
1x bamboo shrimp
Mts
Ramshorns
Assassin snails
And I want 1 other type of fish

The micro crabs are not filter feeders (did some checkin) so I think one bamboo shrimp will be fine.

What else should I add (remember we are going for saltwater like biodiversity) and should I use a 20 tall or 25 tall? I want a clam but I understand the difficulty with that so I will probably pass but I wajt to make sure I dont forget another critter. I want this thing teeming with life!

Oh also very important I think. Substrate. I plan on using soil but what should I mix in? I dont want the soil to soften the water to much for the crustaceans wo should I mix some crushed coral or something with the soil? I have very soft water anyway.

 

[Rivercats]

If your going to get Dwarf Anchor cats which are the smallest of the moth cats nitrates have to be kept no higher than 12ppm or they will perish very quickly. I love our little DAC's but they require pristine water.

 

[GodFan]

If your going to get Dwarf Anchor cats which are the smallest of the moth cats nitrates have to be kept no higher than 12ppm or they will perish very quickly. I love our little DAC's but they require pristine water.

I just got whatever the LFS had lol I have one that has lived well for quite awhile.

 

[Rivercats]

Dwarf Anchor Cats are generally smaller than an inch. They are very tiny.

 

[GodFan]

Dwarf Anchor Cats are generally smaller than an inch. They are very tiny.

Its tiny but probably hits an inch.

 

[Rivercats]

We have Hara Jerdoni. Here's what they look like...

dwarf anchor cat

 

[GodFan]

We have Hara Jerdoni. Here's what they look like...

dwarf anchor cat

Thats what mine looks like. At least as far as I can tell he is really small. He changes color between light and dark too.

 

[GodFan]

So I decided to use the 25 tall. I might go ahesd and set it up tonight even though my light wont be purchased until alittle later. I need suggestions on a plant to cover my caves with. I want the caves to be covered in a thick short plant. Best way I can describe it is like a real dark green maybe inch long fuzz on the caves. Also since these will be toward the bottom of the tank what plant could handle the lower light?

On a side note I am thinking about starting a build thread. What should I name it?

 

[Wy Renegade]

How about Java Moss? I wouldn't say it gets to an inch in length, but it is a nice dark green fuzz.

 

[GodFan]

How about Java Moss? I wouldn't say it gets to an inch in length, but it is a nice dark green fuzz.

Last time I usee java moss it looked scragly. Like arm pit hair lol I would like to not be able to see the actually rock or pvc I use to make the cave.

 

[Rivers2k]

I love what you are trying to do. Remember Assassin snails hunt other snails (hence the name) so they will kill your MTS and Rams horn. I think the assasin snails is a better pick over the other two because you don't have to worry about over population. I also think the clams are a bad way to go they can kill a tank when they die off and there off spring float through the water and in bed themselves in gills stressing the fish.

I would do

School of cherry barbs
Thai micro crabs
Rcs (might get eaten but worth a shot)
Ghost shrimp
Honey comb catfish
1x bamboo shrimp
10x Assassin snails
3 x Bumble bee gobies
6x kuhli loaches

 

[GodFan]

I love what you are trying to do. Remember Assassin snails hunt other snails (hence the name) so they will kill your MTS and Rams horn. I think the assasin snails is a better pick over the other two because you don't have to worry about over population. I also think the clams are a bad way to go they can kill a tank when they die off and there off spring float through the water and in bed themselves in gills stressing the fish.

I would do

School of cherry barbs
Thai micro crabs
Rcs (might get eaten but worth a shot)
Ghost shrimp
Honey comb catfish
1x bamboo shrimp
10x Assassin snails
3 x Bumble bee gobies
6x kuhli loaches

Thanks! Yes I have had assassins before to helpnwith a snail problem. I was actually thinking about letting the other snails establish and then adding the assassins. They would keep the population in check without wiping out then. Plus they are fun to watch eat and will breed with live food.
I am probably gonna skip he clam even though it stinks
I also thought about adding some rabbit snails. They should be sae frome the assassins because of their size right?