Upgrading and Cycling...oh my!

[MSU Fan]

I barely know where to start, but I will try to summarize all the rookie mistakes...

Started a 29gal w/ 2 zebra danios, 2 skirt tetras, and 2 corys...all went well and cycling began (and finished). I began adding further fish (some rainbows, rams, etc). I have an Emperor 280 btw. Anyway, long story short, had an algae buildup, so I cleaned the decor, then I removed most of the gravel later since there was too much in my opinion. I had a very nasty bout with ich where I lost ~75% of my fish in about 3 days.

Since all of this (~2months) occurred, I have been attempting to re-cycle the tank, and I say re-cycle because I still have ammonia in the tank. And it fluxes major (from .5 to 5ppm in 24hrs). I have cut feeding to every other day, and I added 10% water changes daily for over 10 days straight...the stupid ammonia will not go away. Also, the FW Master Test kit has shown ~7ph, and 0 nitrates and 0 nitrites for this whole time. I am at my wits end with this. I welcome any advise on this matter.

Secondly, I am also going to be converting sometime in the next 2 months over to a 75gal (all my fish will be moving to it as well). Any helpful advise on the move? Should I get new fish to cycle the new tank, and then add in the current fish later? Again, I welcome help.

I have read about as much as my brain can hold on the cycling process and everything, and I can't seem to get it right...

 

[Alshain]

Likely your Ich outbreak was due to the water. Its also likely that

1. Something wiped out your bacteria, maybe some medication you added or other chemical water treatment.

--and/or--

2. You had a false reading and the tank never was cycled.

If the tank is still not showing any signs of cycling then it may be that something (perhaps medicine) is still in the tank killing it before it can get started. Activated Carbon should get rid of it, make sure you have some in your filter.

For the new tank I would use a fishless cycling method, even if you don't have a valid source of bacteria (ie. an established tank), it will grow naturally but slowly. This will give you a much larger amount of bacteria before adding any fish and you should be able to fully stock the tank immediately. Afterward you can move your current fish to their new home.

 

[joannde]

Hi and welcome !
Do you use any declorinator before adding the water to your tank ? Have you checked your tap water for ammonia ? Are you using any sort of ammonia locking material (ammoLock carbon is one example) ?
As far as cycling the second tank - once this one is cycled the second one is a snap. Just run both filters on the original tank and move the second filter to the new tank - the cycle will be VERY fast.

 

[MSU Fan]

I have used ammo-lock, which judging by the results, hasn't been very effective for me. Also, yes, I de-chlorinate my tap water with Aquasafe. I haven't checked the ammonia in the tap water, but I will soon. I am also going to change out my activated carbon, and see if that has an effect, as well as another water change. Thanks for the help, i'll let you know how if goes!

 

[tropicfishman]

once your tank is stable and has been running a couple months, use the water from it to fill up the 75 partially, keep all your gravel soaked in tank water too during the change, and run your filter from your 29 along side the filter for the 75 to seed it with the bacteria you need to breakdown ammonia and what not, IO would run them together for about 3 weeks

 

[Guest]

Just did a complete transfer and what Joannde and tropicfishman said worked great for me so don't worry about it. Very important not to let anything dry out. used a few buckets to keep stuff wet.

 

[MSU Fan]

So, this is pretty freaky to me, but I went home yesterday, and decided to test my tap water. I filled a vial of tap water and a vial of tank water and did a simultaneous ammonia test. When finished, the tank was between .5 and 1ppm, as I expected. And the tap was a good .25ppm itself (actually between .25 and .5ppm)!

I am going to do a complete test on the tap water with my kit to see if there is anything else ruining me there, and for now I am going to use RO water on the tank...

 

[joannde]

Be careful if you're going to use RO water. It has no nutrients and ions, so its actually not the best thing for a FW tank.
Once you're cycled the ammonia in your tap water will clear very quickly. And if you use Prime as your conditioner it will convert it to a safer form of ammonia, which is still available to the good bacteria you need but less harmful to the fish.
The AmmoLock may also be tying up the ammonia and stalling your cycle - have you been using it all along ?
Just keep doing water changes to keep ammonia and nitrites below .5ppm - it will be a alot of work but your fish have a better chance of living and you'll be able to cycle the tank.

 

[MSU Fan]

So I continue to do water changes, and I renewed half the filter media in my Emperor 280. Here's the rub: the PH has dropped off the FW Master Test Kit scale (<6 PH), and the ammonia is up to 4ppm. Still no nitrite or nitrate readings at all. I think the low PH is probably the only thing keeping my fish alive at this point...

I am all about patience, however, I am also about prudence, and this tank does not appear to be doing any form of cycling at all (and hasn't changed status at all in the past 3 weeks).

I am hesitant to add any chemicals, since that hasn't really helped so far (other than de-chlorinator). Even with the reduced feedings and increased water changes, the ammonia is still high (not spiking, but high).

Thanks for all the help so far, I appreciate it!

 

[joannde]

I know its frustrating. You could try adding Bio-Spira by Marineland. Make SURE that the store you purchase it from has it cold - heat kills the bacteria in it. Bring a cooler to take it home in.

Here's the link to Marinelands page on the product:
http://www.marineland.com/products/mllabs/ml_biospira.asp

Here's a link to the page with retailers - not all of them carry Bio-Spira so you need to call them first and make sure they have it:
http://www.marineland.com/StoreLocator/StoreLocForm.asp

Barring that - you'll have to keep doing water changes. Cycling takes 6 - 8 weeks

 

[MSU Fan]

I am really considering Bio-Spira at this point. Last night I did a test, and here are the results:
Nitrates - 0
Nitrites - 0
Ammonia - 4-5ppm
PH - <6

So I did a 40% water change, added the dechlorinator in, did a gravel clean as well, and then let the tank be for about 2-3 hours. Then I retested:
Nitrates - 0
Nitrites - 0
Ammonia - 4-5ppm
PH - 6.4

So the PH did raise a bit, but the ammonia didn't change at all. Now I know that my tap water tested positive for ammonia (I don't actually think it was ammonia, but something else...not sure), but even a 40% water change should have produced some results, right???

Oh, and to make matters worse, I have green algae...I have a bottle of algae fix at home that I am going to use, but that means removing the carbon filters from the filter...seems like an iffy proposition at best...any advice on this?

 

[7Enigma]

Here's my advice:

Don't use the algae product, that algae right now is helping to keep your fish alive (ammonia), and while ugly, will not harm the fish. Yes it will be an annoyance, and depending on the amount might start to make it difficult to see, but you can always blackout the tank in a couple of days/weeks when the ammonia and nitrIte levels are lower.

I would get a GH/KH test kit to give us an idea of the hardness of your water. Judging from your tank pH readings I would wager a guess that your tap water is relatively soft. I would NOT use RO water right now, and would purchase a bottle of Prime (dechlor that will lock up some ammonia so the amount in your tap is moot).

In the meantime I would be very worried about that pH level. I would take a cup of your tank water and mix in 1/4 teaspoon of baking soda and add about 1/2 of the water to the tank, wait a couple of hours and check the pH. Check the pH and if still below 6, add the rest of the water. This will increase your KH which buffers your water from pH swings.

Normally we don't recommend messing with the pH because its better to have a stable pH, but in your case, since you have fish already you need to get that pH up. The bacteria you are attempting to grow require a pH above 6 to function, below that they will either seriously slow down their metabolism, or stop completely.

justin

 

[Gill]

You could try Seachem Stability - many people have had positive results with it. It contains dormant forms of the beneficial bacteria that are involved in the cycling process of your tank. The best part about it is that you're supposed to use it with fish in the tank because ammonia and other water conditions will cause the dormant bacteria to wake up.

At the very best best it will cycle your tank in one or two weeks or at least start your cycling process. At the worst, you wasted around 7 or 8 bucks.

Worth a try IMO - cycled my 10g in a week without any massive fluctuations.

 

[7Enigma]

You could try Seachem Stability - many people have had positive results with it. It contains dormant forms of the beneficial bacteria that are involved in the cycling process of your tank. The best part about it is that you're supposed to use it with fish in the tank because ammonia and other water conditions will cause the dormant bacteria to wake up.

At the very best best it will cycle your tank in one or two weeks or at least start your cycling process. At the worst, you wasted around 7 or 8 bucks.

Worth a try IMO - cycled my 10g in a week without any massive fluctuations.

I would hesitate to use this product. It has been shown in the past that nitrifying bacteria that enter a dormant state (normally done by limiting ammonia) are extremely finicky as to when to "wake" back up. I believe it was somewhere around 100ppm ammonia. Your tank will never see that concentration of ammonia (without complete death of all fish). Several people have had great experience with Biospira, but it is completely hit and miss, if it was ever stored at room temperature (during transport, in the back of the store, before being shipped, you'll just have an expensive bottle of dead bacteria.

The best route is to get some filter media or gravel from an established disease-free tank, be it the LFS you got the fish from, or a friend's tank. You can very quickly cycle a tank with even a modest amount of seed material, MUCH faster than just doing water changes with no seed material.

HTH,

justin

EDIT: And I see you did a 40% PWC when your ammonia was between 4 and 5ppm. Please keep in mind that a 40% PWC will only decrease your ammonia levels to slightly under 3ppm (still way too high). I see you have no live plants so I would recommend doing an 75-80% PWC, and then doing another 75-80% PWC right after. Keep in mind, its not the amount of water changes that will quickly lower the ammount of ammonia in the tank, its the % at EACH water change that makes the most difference.

 

[MSU Fan]

Thanks everyone...going to try to get some media from my LFS today. Also, since I am sort of planning for another tank, I went and got some petrified wood and flag stone. I was testing the leaching of both the rocks over night, and I noticed something extremely unsettling.

When I tested the PH levels, I tested just tap water (control) and two sinks water (one with Flagstone, one with Petrified wood).

First Test (+5 mins)
Tap - PH 7.2
Flag - PH 7.2
Wood - PH 7.6

Second Test (+45 mins)
Tap - PH 7.2
Flag - PH 7.2
Wood - PH 7.6

Now for the crazy part:
Third Test (+9 hours)
Flag (water had drained, but had not seen anything to date)
Wood - PH 7.2!
Tap - PH 8.4!!!!

My tap water had gone from 7.2 to 8.4 (I had to use the high PH scale to even register it) overnight. And I am not suggesting that I had a bowl of tap water out all night, this was straight from the faucet both times! This is not helping I am sure.

On the other hand, during my tank tests last night, the ammonia was down to 1-2ppm, but still no signs of nitrites or nitrates.

 

[SCFatz]

On the other hand, during my tank tests last night, the ammonia was down to 1-2ppm, but still no signs of nitrites or nitrates.

Was this the result of a water change?If not the nitrites will test positve soon...probably today imo.

Using the AP test kit ?

The ph swing in the tap would worry me too...I'd make a call or two about it in all honesty.Thats a big swing in ph...esp for a LARGE water supply.I'm not just typing that last sentence in either...I'm licensed in waste water in my state (not practicing) and I work in the chemical biz.
If my tap did that I'd like an answer or two that were believable.

At the minimum you will need to test your tank and tap before PWCs to avoid big swings.

 

[7Enigma]

Well tap water pH can change depending on local conditions such as recent heavy rains. Also the time the water sits in your pipes can change the pH. I normally like to run the water on high for about a minute or so before testing to make sure you are flushing the pipes in your house of old water. Also be consistent with the temp of the water. I generally only turn on the cold water, as the hot water might have sat longer in the pipes/heater. Either way, I'd say do a water change with the higher pH water to hopefully bump your tank pH up above 6.0.

 

[SCFatz]

7 makes a good point..there are things that can effect ph other then the supply itself..run a lot out to insure a good sample....and stay on the cold water side.

Edit:To quote Tom2K's article again:

The following data pertains to Nitrosomonas bacteria cultured for sale by Fritz Industries, Inc., and for informational purposes we will assume it probably applies also to the bacteria in your tank. The pH is very important, with a pH of 7.8 to 8 being optimal. Nitrosomonas growth is severely restricted by a pH of 6.5, and nitrification is stopped at a pH of 6. I am not recommending that you attempt to adjust your water pH with chemicals while establishing a bio-filter, since rapid swings in pH are likely to result. Just be aware that the process might be slower if you have neutral to acidic water. If your pH plunges while establishing a bio-filter, water changes to raise the pH are likely necessary.

This may be at the least a contributer to your problem...if not the cause for the lack of movement.Just somthing to consider.

 

[MSU Fan]

I probably only ran the water for ~15 seconds before I filled the vial to test it, so I will retry that tonight after letting it run for a while...side note: I filled up the wood side of the sink first (without running for a minute), and used lukewarm water (read - used hot water as well as cold), and then the flagstone side, and then the vial. And the flag and vial were both 7.2 and the wood was 7.6 to start. hhmmmm.

Of course, my wife had run the faucet this morning prior to me testing it, so it should not have been that high (8.4). Very concerned and calling the city about that!

Seriously, thank you all for the help, you probably can understand the frustration I am going through with this. Everything that I try is seeming to backfire. I can only hope that once I can get the PH to a nominal level (i will cheer once I hit 7.0 consistently), that the process will proceed. Thanks again.

I will shoot back some more info this afternoon when I get home!

 

[SCFatz]

Seriously, thank you all for the help, you probably can understand the frustration I am going through with this.

I sure do....but no worries,you'll get there..it will just aggravate the heck out of you until you do lol.

Just so I'm clear...I have never worked for a city or waste water plant,although I am qualified to do so.

That kind of ph swing may be normal,I just doubt it is.

In all actuality its not a huge swing when coming from neutral,but for a large water source I find it surprising.

I'm looking foward to your next post.Both your ph and nitrites have me curious now.