Water change or no water change?

[flchamp89]

I wouldn't feel bad about this although my advice would be to avoid impulse buys. Now let me ask, how would you feel if I asked you why you do not want to protect your fish from living a good life?

First off Im not the norm nor would my views or opinions be taking in a positive view. But the majority of our fish that are kept by even the average fish keeper live a better and longer life than most.

I think the bettas everyone loves is a good example of that. Fish are not like other pets. In general thier lives are short. So I believe the majority live a better overall quality of life in our tanks. Than in the wild, lfs, or going to an uneducated tank.

 

[abw0004]

This is the reason I would do a partial water change before introducing a new. Fish.




Of course a 10% water change is not as stressful as a 50% water change but nowhere in your original text did you mention amounts.

Also, the tank in the picture is apparently the gold standard for QT. Just look online. I am not familiar with your methods, I don't think it's common practice at all. It certainly won't be in any of your books either I'm sure [emoji6] so it looks like you are the only person who knows how to do a quarantine properly. [emoji106]

When you add a new fish to a tank it can takes any number of days/weeks to fully acclimatise. There are a whole number of physiological changes the fish has to go through. Some do well, some don't but are fine after a few days. The species of fish is important too because some are very shy by nature etc.




Me too but this is what the majority of QT tanks look like. It's practical, it saves the display tank from disease and keeps a dime in your pocket. Everyone's a winner except the fish that has to endure this for any given number of weeks.

This is why I take my chances. I don't by on impulse anymore. You can irradiate the chances of most disease or ill fish visually. Scope the place out for a couple of weeks. Know when new fish have been delivered etc. I've been stung a couple of times. Once I should never have purchased the fish because it was clearly sick and I got ich which was taken care of by increasing heat. However it's is dressed, in my opinion you cannot make a QT tank where the fish is not subjected to some degree of stress whilst keeping things practical. Two stage QT tanks in a small terrace house would just be silly.

I think I shall unsubscribe at this point because this is a discussion for another thread.

Unfortunately I think a lot of your arguments are flawed. Andy Sager is right in what he is saying. First of all, it is hard to eyeball fish for diseases. Some diseases cannot been seen by the naked eye. And by the time you can see it, the fish has had it for a while. Most diseases or parasites internalize and the last stage of the disease is external. For example, internal parasites you can only see when the fish defecates. Also, many fish are carriers and do not show symptoms until they are put in a new environment or under stress, which is when you bring them home. For example, you can be in a room with someone who has a cold, but you don't get sick. But when you get home, your family gets the cold because you built an immunity to it or have already that that strain of the cold when your family did not. And I know your argument might be "well the QT tank will cause stress and the fish will then get sick." Any new tank will cause stress, even your main tank. There are new plants and fish in there stressing out the fish.

That picture you chose to show as an example for a QT tank is a SW QT tank. If you look closely, that is a SW fish. That particular fish needs open space to swim and a decent size to swim in for a QT tank. In that case, it doesn't need decorations in the tank, just open water. So that picture is very deceiving.

Quarantine tanks are not permanent homes, only temporary. You can read anywhere online that is credible and they all say to use QT tanks. I have also asked marine biologists at Auburn University (where I went to college) and they all say QT's are a must.

If you need another example, go to your local aquarium and ask them what their process is when they get in new fish. The Georgia Aquarium here has an extensive QT program before any fish is introduced. A lot more people than you think use QT's my friend. And I know this post may sound aggressive (I don't mean for it to be, any aquarium hobbyist is a friend on mine), but telling people not to use QT's is putting their fish's lives at risk.

 

[Delapool]

I don't have the room or money for a quarantine tank.

Yeah, that's a tricky one. If you don't have permission either it's very hard. QT's can be just clear plastic buckets and simple filters for up to a week.

When I was in a similar boat I was lucky enough to find some old tanks and they went on top of fridges. They then ended up with natives in them which kind of defeated the purpose. Not sure what other solutions have been found but guessing people have them.

 

[Caliban07]

Unfortunately I think a lot of your arguments are flawed. Andy Sager is right in what he is saying. First of all, it is hard to eyeball fish for diseases. Some diseases cannot been seen by the naked eye. And by the time you can see it, the fish has had it for a while. Most diseases or parasites internalize and the last stage of the disease is external. For example, internal parasites you can only see when the fish defecates. Also, many fish are carriers and do not show symptoms until they are put in a new environment or under stress, which is when you bring them home. For example, you can be in a room with someone who has a cold, but you don't get sick. But when you get home, your family gets the cold because you built an immunity to it or have already that that strain of the cold when your family did not. And I know your argument might be "well the QT tank will cause stress and the fish will then get sick." Any new tank will cause stress, even your main tank. There are new plants and fish in there stressing out the fish.

Quarantine tanks are not permanent homes, only temporary. You can read anywhere online that is credible and they all say to use QT tanks. I have also asked marine biologists at Auburn University (where I went to college) and they all say QT's are a must.

If you need another example, go to your local aquarium and ask them what their process is when they get in new fish. The Georgia Aquarium here has an extensive QT program before any fish is introduced. A lot more people than you think use QT's.

It is not the using of the QT I have a problem with. It is the reaction or opinion of the minority that do towards those that don't or can't.

If someone wants to use a QT then that's absolutely fine, a must in some cases but I've seen too many threads over the years where people have been ill treated because they don't or can't.

If the OP says they don't have the money or space to run a QT then the advice should go something more like this.

'In my opinion and experience it is always good practice to use a QT because.....'

'However, if it is not practical for you to set up and run another two tanks alongside your main display tank I would suggest you do this.....'

Andy's mantra of 'why would you keep fish if you are not prepared to give it the best life reads more like this:

'If you don't have the means to run a QT tank then you shouldn't be keeping fish'

By the way, I'm not arguing. I'm just stating an opinion.

 

[abw0004]

It is not the using of the QT I have a problem with. It is the reaction or opinion of the minority that do towards those that don't or can't.

If someone wants to use a QT then that's absolutely fine, a must in some cases but I've seen too many threads over the years where people have been ill treated because they don't or can't.

If the OP says they don't have the money or space to run a QT then the advice should go something more like this.

'In my opinion and experience it is always good practice to use a QT because.....'

'However, if it is not practical for you to set up and run another two tanks alongside your main display tank I would suggest you do this.....'

Andy's mantra of 'why would you keep fish if you are not prepared to give it the best life reads more like this:

'If you don't have the means to run a QT tank then you shouldn't be keeping fish'

By the way, I'm not arguing. I'm just stating an opinion.

If you look at what Andy was saying though, he was saying it is actually cheaper to get a QT tank. For example, a 10 gallon QT tank is normally sufficient. PetCo runs deals of $1 per gallon for tanks. So that is $10 for a tank. A cheap air pump is $6, and a heater is $20. So they most you will spend is $36 and that can last you the rest of your life if you want it.

Lets say you have a 25 gallon main tank for the sake of numbers. And lets say the fish is sick. If you only have the main tank you have to use 2.5 x's the medication for the main tank than the QT tank, thus you have to buy more medication which is not cheap (you would need 2 bottles of Paraguard for the main, compared to 1 for the QT at $12 each). If you do 50% water changes everyday for the sick fish, you are using 7 more gallons for the main tank. So with one sick fish, the QT pays for itself, and this is excluding the variable of other fish getting sick or dying since you out the fish in the main tank.

Again, a QT is a one time purchase, thus saving you even more money in the future. So if people are impatient and aren't willing to take all of the right steps for the health of their fish, that is why Andy chimed in and I think rightfully so. Another example is people who buy a new tank and throw in a ton of fish before cycling. Yeah you get the fish you wanted right away, but you end up spending more money with fish loss due to ammonia spikes (and I will point the finger at myself for that one when I first started as I had no Earthly idea about tank cycling).

No need to rush into buying fish if you don't take the necessary precautions, the fish will still be there next in two weeks when the next paycheck comes in.

 

[Andy Sager]

Andy's mantra of 'why would you keep fish if you are not prepared to give it the best life reads more like this:

'If you don't have the means to run a QT tank then you shouldn't be keeping fish'

By the way, I'm not arguing. I'm just stating an opinion.

In actuality, I am saying that. Just like I would say " If you don't want to shoot anything, don't buy a gun or If you don't want to buy gas, don't buy a gas powered car." Not everybody who wants to have fish as pets is best prepared to do so. Just because you can does not mean that you should. When I was a youngster, I wanted a cheetah as a pet. I just LOVE that cat!!!!!!!! and I had the opportunity to get one. But I lived in a small house with a small yard in a small community and so after much discussion and disappointment, I didn't get it. But I did have monkeys because I could better care for them properly than I could the cheetah. See the point? Just because you want something does not mean you should have it.
Now I'm not saying that all people have to do it my way or no way at all. I understand that not everybody has the means. But I will say that if you are starting out today, especially with TODAY'S limitations, a QT tank should be part of the original setup and budgeted for. If it isn't, there is a greater risk of future failure than not. Just like if you don't change the oil in the car, the car will still work today but down the road, the bill to fix the car will be much higher than the oil change. That's all I'm sayin'

In response to your comment that that tank was the "Gold Standard" for QT, I would have to disagree or say that it might be that way in your country but not everywhere. Whether fresh or salt, ( and that was a salt tank) it was not set up properly for medicating or fish acclimation however, as a first stage QT, all that tank needed was a reduction in lighting especially because many meds are effected by light.
As for my being the only one doing it that way or know how to do it that way, I leaned it from others so I am not the only one. I also don't have many disease issues in display tanks. How many threads on the "sick fish" forum are devoted to that same issue?

I will also add that my comments are based on both fact and opinion. You can take them for what they are worth.

 

[nirbhao]

Not to long ago, I bought two blue rams. Almost immediately after acclimating them to my main tank, I noticed the spider web poop. I was so angry with myself for not doing a quarantine.

That said, it's really hard to have a set-up and not use it. I mean, I don't have a dedicated quarantine tank. I'm not planning on buying any livestock anytime soon.

But that isn't the original question.

 

[Caliban07]

In actuality, I am saying that. Just like I would say " If you don't want to shoot anything, don't buy a gun or If you don't want to buy gas, don't buy a gas powered car." Not everybody who wants to have fish as pets is best prepared to do so. Just because you can does not mean that you should. When I was a youngster, I wanted a cheetah as a pet. I just LOVE that cat!!!!!!!! and I had the opportunity to get one. But I lived in a small house with a small yard in a small community and so after much discussion and disappointment, I didn't get it. But I did have monkeys because I could better care for them properly than I could the cheetah. See the point? Just because you want something does not mean you should have it.

Now I'm not saying that all people have to do it my way or no way at all. I understand that not everybody has the means. But I will say that if you are starting out today, especially with TODAY'S limitations, a QT tank should be part of the original setup and budgeted for. If it isn't, there is a greater risk of future failure than not. Just like if you don't change the oil in the car, the car will still work today but down the road, the bill to fix the car will be much higher than the oil change. That's all I'm sayin'



In response to your comment that that tank was the "Gold Standard" for QT, I would have to disagree or say that it might be that way in your country but not everywhere. Whether fresh or salt, ( and that was a salt tank) it was not set up properly for medicating or fish acclimation however, as a first stage QT, all that tank needed was a reduction in lighting especially because many meds are effected by light.

As for my being the only one doing it that way or know how to do it that way, I leaned it from others so I am not the only one. I also don't have many disease issues in display tanks. How many threads on the "sick fish" forum are devoted to that same issue?



I will also add that my comments are based on both fact and opinion. You can take them for what they are worth.

I know you were and this is what disappoints me. I like to try to give people the benefit of the doubt. I think the average aquarists knows the risks involved with introducing a new fish. I think most people are fairly sensible and are capable of using their own judgement. If someone has assessed the risks, pros and cons and decide that they are not going to use a quarantine tank and are prepared to deal with the consequences then that is good enough for me. Who am I to tell them that they shouldn't be keeping fish? That is poor practice on an advice forum if you ask me. It just makes people less likely to be open. I don't class this as negligence. Like deciding your workforce is not required to where safety boots without some form of evidence based risk assessment, if someone injures their foot then it becomes neglect, if you have assessed the risks to justify your decision then that is not. Quarantine is an optional practice that can have some degree of success, like changing water every three weeks instead of one, injecting carbon dioxide or dropping in some glutaradehyde. Would you say that people who are willing to risk asphyxiating their livestock to grow plants should not own them?

I have done my risk assessment. If I come unstuck I might consider a quarantine in the future. Until then my experience not using them has been good for the most part.

 

[Andy Sager]

In actuality, I am saying that. Just like I would say " If you don't want to shoot anything, don't buy a gun or If you don't want to buy gas, don't buy a gas powered car." Not everybody who wants to have fish as pets is best prepared to do so. Just because you can does not mean that you should. When I was a youngster, I wanted a cheetah as a pet. I just LOVE that cat!!!!!!!! and I had the opportunity to get one. But I lived in a small house with a small yard in a small community and so after much discussion and disappointment, I didn't get it. But I did have monkeys because I could better care for them properly than I could the cheetah. See the point? Just because you want something does not mean you should have it.
Now I'm not saying that all people have to do it my way or no way at all. I understand that not everybody has the means. But I will say that if you are starting out today, especially with TODAY'S limitations, a QT tank should be part of the original setup and budgeted for. If it isn't, there is a greater risk of future failure than not. Just like if you don't change the oil in the car, the car will still work today but down the road, the bill to fix the car will be much higher than the oil change. That's all I'm sayin'

In response to your comment that that tank was the "Gold Standard" for QT, I would have to disagree or say that it might be that way in your country but not everywhere. Whether fresh or salt, ( and that was a salt tank) it was not set up properly for medicating or fish acclimation however, as a first stage QT, all that tank needed was a reduction in lighting especially because many meds are effected by light.
As for my being the only one doing it that way or know how to do it that way, I leaned it from others so I am not the only one. I also don't have many disease issues in display tanks. How many threads on the "sick fish" forum are devoted to that same issue?

I will also add that my comments are based on both fact and opinion. You can take them for what they are worth.

Let me be clear about something here, just because you don't use a QT tank does not mean you are automatically destined to have a disaster. You do need to take extra precautions to prevent them however ( ie not impulse buy, have a good LFS that already QTs their fish, not buying newly arrived fish, etc.). If your concern is not having major problems, or any disease related problems, in your main tank, a QT tank then is a must as it's the only way to do all that is possible ( sans mixing the wrong fish together ) to prevent them from happening in your main tank. Considering all the diseases that are out there now and all the medications that are no longer available to the fish hobby, for me, it only makes sense to use a QT.
As for how to use one properly, a simple search of this site will show many threads about how to use them. More elaborate information can be googled and found in university and zoological sites.

To the OP's original point, the best thing for a new fish is to reduce their stress level so, as stated before, by doing your routine water change prior to adding the fish, you can save one extra stress on the fish. I also recommend testing your water just before you head out to your LFS to make sure your tank is okay to add fish to. I've had many people rush things and some bought fish for a tank that had very high nitrates even tho they just changed water. That's an issue that needs to be known as some fish can't handle higher nitrate levels while others can. The more you know about what's going on, the better off you and your fish will be.

 

[flchamp89]

This is one of those threads that never end well.

 

[Caliban07]

Let me be clear about something here, just because you don't use a QT tank does not mean you are automatically destined to have a disaster. You do need to take extra precautions to prevent them however ( ie not impulse buy, have a good LFS that already QTs their fish, not buying newly arrived fish, etc.).

Thank you! [emoji5] this is called risk assessment or reducing the risks as far as is reasonably practicable. If someone has taken the time to do this then in my eyes it's all good.

 

[Andy Sager]

I know you were and this is what disappoints me. I like to try to give people the benefit of the doubt. I think the average aquarists knows the risks involved with introducing a new fish. I think most people are fairly sensible and are capable of using their own judgement. If someone has assessed the risks, pros and cons and decide that they are not going to use a quarantine tank and are prepared to deal with the consequences then that is good enough for me. Who am I to tell them that they shouldn't be keeping fish? That is poor practice on an advice forum if you ask me. It just makes people less likely to be open. I don't class this as negligence. Like deciding your workforce is not required to where safety boots without some form of evidence based risk assessment, if someone injures their foot then it becomes neglect, if you have assessed the risks to justify your decision then that is not. Quarantine is an optional practice that can have some degree of success, like changing water every three weeks instead of one, injecting carbon dioxide or dropping in some glutaradehyde. Would you say that people who are willing to risk asphyxiating their livestock to grow plants should not own them?

I have done my risk assessment. If I come unstuck I might consider a quarantine in the future. Until then my experience not using them has been good for the most part.

I think it's great that you think that way about people in general but that does not seem to be the general consensus in all countries. Here, in the U.S., there are many places that sell fish to whoever wants to keep them and has the money to buy them. There is no pre education for their health and welfare and as someone who was in the business, I know first hand that most people getting their first tank are NOT informed enough to make a rational, educated decision about what to buy, when to buy it and how to take care of what they want to buy. They see a fish, they like it, they buy a tank ( whichever one is on sale) and take it home and set it up with the fish. Does that sound like an average aquarist? That's what I saw ( and tried to correct) and what I am reading now on sites like this. Let's start a poll: How many people knew about fish and/ or fish keeping BEFORE they bought their first tank? Please be honest. I'll start. I didn't know JACK about fish other than my Grandmother's tank had beautiful fish swimming around in it. Thankfully, I was helped by those who did know.

 

[flchamp89]

I guess thats where im idiot. I dont buy a toaster without putting thought into it.

But I think both of you have great points.

 

[Caliban07]

I think it's great that you think that way about people in general but that does not seem to be the general consensus in all countries. Here, in the U.S., there are many places that sell fish to whoever wants to keep them and has the money to buy them. There is no pre education for their health and welfare and as someone who was in the business, I know first hand that most people getting their first tank are NOT informed enough to make a rational, educated decision about what to buy, when to buy it and how to take care of what they want to buy. They see a fish, they like it, they buy a tank ( whichever one is on sale) and take it home and set it up with the fish. Does that sound like an average aquarist? That's what I saw ( and tried to correct) and what I am reading now on sites like this. Let's start a poll: How many people knew about fish and/ or fish keeping BEFORE they bought their first tank? Please be honest. I'll start. I didn't know JACK about fish other than my Grandmother's tank had beautiful fish swimming around in it. Thankfully, I was helped by those who did know.

I value your experiences here and I would agree that there are a lot of people who behave this way but there are also a lot of people who start threads on here who have done lots of research. It's swings and roundabouts and I guess I just don't like to tar people
With the same brush. Good discussion. I'm out.

 

[Andy Sager]

This is one of those threads that never end well.

I understand your concern. This is a discussion however and all points of view are welcomed but you also have to realize that not all points of view are based on the facts OR, just as all water is not the same, the things being expressed here are not universally true.
If we went back to a time when knowledge was learned in books and from professionals, this would be a very different conversation. However, since it is not that way, the best one can do is lay out the facts and let the chips fall where they may.
I've said about all I can on the subject. ( Do I hear sarcastic clapping in the background? ) My information is indisputable. Those who want to dispute it will have to show me evidence, not opinion, that it's wrong.

 

[Andy Sager]

I guess thats where im idiot. I dont buy a toaster without putting thought into it.

But I think both of you have great points.

You are not an idiot!!!!! On the contrary, you put thought into the toaster you bought but many don't do that when it comes to the pets they buy or keep. I know that from experience as a retail pet shop manager.
There was many a day when I went home like this because of what went on with customers during the day. It's a sad reality but one none the less. I wish the pet business and pet hobby was filled with more people like Caliban described but the truth is it's not. ( At least not here in the U.S. )

 

[flchamp89]

I get it I was the guy who learned from books and professors.

Im also guy who believes good experience can sometimes trump those books. Many many smart people here. Such as the two of you.

I often believe when we later incorporate the experience in with the formal education we are better because of it.

Im just a country boy but that my view.

 

[Andy Sager]

Absolutely!! Not every fish reads the book.

 

[mambee]

I'll add my $.02 on the matter of a quarantine tank. My main tanks are 90 and 150 gallons each. I had a bad ich infection in the past, and it is easier to treat in my 17 gallon quarantine tank than in a 90 or 150 gallon tank. Even though I quarantine, I got lazy last year and didn't keep the fish in quarantine long enough. Between the ich and harsh chemicals, I lost over 20 fish, including dwarf loaches and an L pleco. It took me over 2 months and medication ordered from eBay from the UK to get things under control. Never again. My quarantine tank has live plants and a permanent BNP resident to keep it cycled. Would I rather fill this tank up with fish or shrimp, you betcha. But I'm never going through the stress of losing half a tank of fish to disease again. Regarding cost, your quarantine tank can be a Tupperware container with a sponge filter and a heater, even though it is easier to spot disease in a glass tank.

 

[Delapool]

I think it's great that you think that way about people in general but that does not seem to be the general consensus in all countries. Here, in the U.S., there are many places that sell fish to whoever wants to keep them and has the money to buy them. There is no pre education for their health and welfare and as someone who was in the business, I know first hand that most people getting their first tank are NOT informed enough to make a rational, educated decision about what to buy, when to buy it and how to take care of what they want to buy. They see a fish, they like it, they buy a tank ( whichever one is on sale) and take it home and set it up with the fish. Does that sound like an average aquarist? That's what I saw ( and tried to correct) and what I am reading now on sites like this. Let's start a poll: How many people knew about fish and/ or fish keeping BEFORE they bought their first tank? Please be honest. I'll start. I didn't know JACK about fish other than my Grandmother's tank had beautiful fish swimming around in it. Thankfully, I was helped by those who did know.

For the first tank (heck for the 5th tank) I knew nothing pretty much in reply here.
------------------

Now if I don't QT (eg very large buy) I've done essentially a risk assessment. Either way I don't buy fish in the peak of summer. Too risky on bacterial infections here. The risk still comes back to me and if I stuff up I only have myself to blame (although I seek out high quality stores now which are probably a bit more expensive).

For myself a QT is lower risk all up. If a QT can't be done, it can't be done but I confess I can't think of a better option. I wish there was one and am open to ideas. The fear here now is losing plants as well as original fish in DT and I'm not even in saltwater which seems hideously expensive.

For some time I have wondered if there is a difference in US vs UK/Australia fish quality. For Australia it seems (but this is just a guess) that import regulations are tighter. But on the flip side our meds access is definitely more limited. So maybe there is something on the US side. Idk. In all fish shops I go to the staff in the fish shop tend to own fish tanks and if not too busy will have a chat. However I also wonder if our "large barn stores" are the equal of "mom and pop" stores elsewhere Anyways this was just in passing without trying to slight US stores, or regulations - it's something I've wondered on for some time if there can or should or are already differences in fish keeping practices between different countries.

Going back to water changes, here I would do a water change before buying fish. New fish always seem to startle easy to me and I've found first water change they can bolt around a bit if already a bit unsettled.