Wigglers 2: Birth of a hatchery & everything Angels

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ImageUploadedByAquarium Advice1441850684.807791.jpgHere is the batch of my Angels latest spawn Andy. They just moved them to this leaf today. They're wiggling like crazy! One question though, why do they move the Wigglers? They've been wiggling for 1 1/2 days now so I'm guessing about another 2-3 days and they should be free swimming!


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View attachment 277847Here is the batch of my Angels latest spawn Andy. They just moved them to this leaf today. They're wiggling like crazy! One question though, why do they move the Wigglers? They've been wiggling for 1 1/2 days now so I'm guessing about another 2-3 days and they should be free swimming!


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I'd like to say they do this because they are NUTS!!!!!!:blink::lol: but in reality, most cichlids do the same thing with their wigglers as well. It's a safety measure, most likely bred into their DNA from ancestors long gone, to keep the fry from being found and eaten. It's very typical and nothing you need to worry about. The big problem comes when the adults get scared or overly concerned by constant onlookers that they eat the fry. Be careful just how much attention you pay to them.
Quick story: Today, I went to feed the newly swimming Zebra Lace veil fry some brine shrimp and I searched everywhere for them and couldn't find them. :( Then, the male came right up to the front of the glass and spit them out. :eek: The female then came and gathered them all up and spit them into a fake plant I have in the tank. That was 2 times I could have lost them. So again, try to leave them alone as much as possible to avoid any mistakes on the parent's part. (y)
 
Sure will Andy! Your info has been indispensable. I did a quick spot clean and took this pic. I cover the tank to keep them a free and isolated as possible. Got my new 20 gallon up today. Going to move that pair out of my 55 as soon as it settles down. I've been running the sponge filter in my big tank for about 1 1/2 weeks trying to get it as much beneficial bacteria on it as possible.


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Actually, it's an individual thing. I've had pairs that will only spawn on slate, on red rock, on white PVC pipe while others just go for whatever is in the right position when they are ready.
I recently had this discussion with my friend about the fish's ability to see colors. We've concluded that if that can't actually see colors, they must be able to see shades. The reasoning: My/his former :brows: Zebra Lace female. She has successfully spawned with 4 different males. 2 Blacks, 1- Half Black and 1 Zebra Lace veil. Her first was a Black male. Her last, the other black male. What's interesting is that she beat up the other 2 males even tho she would spawn with them yet she hasn't touched the Black males. There were many months and many spawns in between the 2 black males so why hasn't she continued this harsh treatment of her males? We surmize that it's because of their color. Apparently, it's something she prefers. :confused:

Thanks Andy. I didn't think about it being an individual thing.

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The next set of experiments begins tonight. The Gold Marbles spawned this afternoon as did the red cap. Both spawns were pulled so we will see if any become free swimming.
As for the Zebra Lace veil fry, they were gone this morning. Not totally unexpected considering that there were only 6 and the parents are not seasoned veterans at raising fry. They were in a pre spawning mode yesterday with a lot of lip locking and attention towards the slate so hopefully, they will spawn again so I can pull it and see what happens. Now that I know their fry did become free swimming, it makes the next results a bit more interesting. (y)
 
Another spawn today from my regular Joe and Jane for me to test to see if enough good food has passed through their systems. (y):lol:

The goal of any good hatchery is the continuation of good lines and with that, I've decided to focus more on my next F1 generations than the parents I have now. I've taken some losses of breeders the past few days which had nothing to do with me or the setup but more the actual fish themselves. The big male marble veil just got the snot beat out of him by the silver and he never recovered. I would look at him daily and he seemed to be getting over the attack. ( He was separated from the female but still in the breeder tank with a divider.) yesterday, I noticed one of his sides had a nice large area that had fungused so I moved him into a hospital tank and medicated him but he did not survive. The male 1/2 black from pair #2 came down with a blood disease. It's symptoms were similar to fish that have been known to have been exposed to leeches. I thought I had it under control but once again, the lack of availability to good quality meds left me with no good second choices. The last was the female Black Angel. I was convinced she was eggbound and for the past 3 weeks, I have been trying to relax her, used epsom salt on her, some antibiotics and still nothing. The past 3 days her tube seemed to be enlarging so I was hoping that it was a sign that she was getting ready to spawn finally. Today, she was dead in the tank with what appeared to be a prolapsed vent. I'm assuming it was from being eggbound as she was defecating while engorged. The last female Black had the same issues and never spawned for me either. Considering that these were sisters, it may have had to do something with the outcome.
So hopefully, I will get some positive results from these spawns so I know I can remix some of the pairs and expect some good results. I've already ordered the Cobalt foods suggested by PoppaRyno ( Thanks Poppa :D (y) ) and hope to see some good results.

My last bit of info has to do with the Red Cap and her Koi mate. Keep in mind that both of these fish have had successful spawns with other partners . These 2 are not a good match at all. :nono: On their first spawn, I only saw the end results and had no idea whether the male was given the chance to fertilize the eggs. By the way he was being treated, I could only assume No. The eggs all died and she eventually ate them all. That I saw. This next spawn I got to watch. HOLY CRAP!!!! What a mess this was. She would chase him from the slate then lay a row. He would chase her off then fertilize and fan. She would chase him off then eat the eggs then start the whole process again. I watched this for almost 45 minutes. :facepalm::facepalm: I finally decided to pull the slate with just 2 lines of eggs that I knew he fertilized and put another slate in the tank to try and keep the peace. This morning, I came in and found 3 more lines of eggs on the new slate so I pulled that one too. I just want to get some fry to see if they will carry on the red cap trait. It's obvious I need to split these guys up.

So here's some of the new lineup:
Once I get some tanks cleaned, I am going to put the single 1/2 Black male in with the female from 1/2 Black pair #2, the Koi male back with his old mate (who never spawned with the new male), the Gold Marble male from the Blushing pair ( brother to the one the Red Cap spawned with first) in with the red cap and I am going to set up a tank with the now single black male and some of the Blacks from the Zebra lace - Black pair and the Females from his own spawns with the Silver. I'm also going to set up a tank with the silver female and let her choose a mate from the class of wounded warriors that have proven themselves fertile. At this point however, I'm more interested in the next generations pairing off.
 
Hey Andy, I wanted confirm that it's normal for a fish missing one of his eyes to swim on his side? He didn't do that until he had that fight with his mate.


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Hey Andy, I wanted confirm that it's normal for a fish missing one of his eyes to swim on his side? He didn't do that until he had that fight with his mate.


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On it's side, No, Favoring the side that still has site, Yes. I have the same with the ones I have with the damaged eyes. They tend to swim with the bad eye more protected but that only makes for a slight lean not a total side swimming.
 
On it's side, No, Favoring the side that still has site, Yes. I have the same with the ones I have with the damaged eyes. They tend to swim with the bad eye more protected but that only makes for a slight lean not a total side swimming.


It's really more of a diagonal.


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It's really more of a diagonal.


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Once the fish can get used to seeing only out of the one side, it may swim a bit more normally but for now, realize that if you put it in with other Angels, it's going to be at a disadvantage and possible victim of attacks.
I only use these type of fish in pairs so there are no 'surprise" attacks. :eek:
 
We went to a really nice fish store that was interested in some of our angel babies, we sold him 30 for $.50 each. He said %10 had split gills and it was probably caused by growing them in poor conditions.

We admitted that the 55 was grossly over stocked and that's why we were trying to get some sold. I can't seem to find much about this condition on dr. Google. Wondering if Dr. Andy can give me any more info?


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Once the fish can get used to seeing only out of the one side, it may swim a bit more normally but for now, realize that if you put it in with other Angels, it's going to be at a disadvantage and possible victim of attacks.

I only use these type of fish in pairs so there are no 'surprise" attacks. :eek:


We decided to retire him. I don't like his dorsal fins and I'm wondering if his genes are the ones that caused some of the babies to be with out the ventral fins. For now, he will live alone in what was our breeder tank.

We got a new baby angel solid black lace to try to pair with the one baby we are keeping. I know it's a long shot but I can dream ? those two babies are going into the now vacated 30g. We are going to risk a war in the 55 by trying to reintroduce all the adults (minus the 1 eyed bandit).

The owner of the LFS said to keep them in their own bucket for 30 minutes and do a big water change, rescape a bit and then net them back in. Sounds stressful. But I know my angels can deal. They've been through worse. A little bit of clean water won't kill them. He said the stress is what will help them accept each other.


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Andy, the fry started free swimming this morning! So I should feed them about 12 hrs after they started if I'm not mistaken?


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Update: the stress method worked for 3 of the four. The three, including the mother of all my babies are swimming together this morning still. The fourth one, the bully, is in a tank with a partition with my one eyed male until the bully can go live in the 125g at hubby's work. We are working on converting the salt water tank to fresh. We have kinda come to terms that we won't be getting any more babies for a long time. Our female just doesn't seem to fancy any one and is awful to her mate.


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Andy, the fry started free swimming this morning! So I should feed them about 12 hrs after they started if I'm not mistaken?


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Yes, you can start feeding them today. I suggest the live newly hatched Brine Shrimp. I would also suggest only 1 feeding today unless a number of the fry don't feed. You'll be able to tell by the coloration of their bellies. :brows: You may find that 1 feeding for the first couple of days is enough then gradually start upping it to 2 then 3 feeding per day if possible as the fry grow. Space out the feedings so there isn't a lot of excess food in the tank. (y)
 
Andy I'm so sorry for bugging you, again, but how much do I feed them? Do I use the whole batch of BBS or 1/2 per feeding? I also have Walter and micro worms for them also.


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We went to a really nice fish store that was interested in some of our angel babies, we sold him 30 for $.50 each. He said %10 had split gills and it was probably caused by growing them in poor conditions.

We admitted that the 55 was grossly over stocked and that's why we were trying to get some sold. I can't seem to find much about this condition on dr. Google. Wondering if Dr. Andy can give me any more info?


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3 fish? that's 10% of 30 right? He had a problem with just 3 fish???? :facepalm:That was my first reaction ;) But, if we are trying to keep the crap off the market, those 3 fish count. They should have been culled.

I've not heard the term "Split Gill" but "short gill" is a known side effect of poor growing conditions. ( You can see this here: http://www.theangelfishsociety.org/forum/content.php/42-Culling-Guide ) This is when the gill plate does not cover the entire gill area. Unfortunately, it's also a known genetic defect so you have to see if it is still present when ideal growing conditions are used. (y)

Growing out Angel fry requires space. You just can't crowd them. Right now I have about 400 Blushing Angels of varying sizes that are all unsaleable due to overcrowding. They all just chewed each other's fins off. I am hoping that once I get the outside set up that I can spread them out out there and they will recover. If not, into the turtle pond they go :(
 
Andy I'm so sorry for bugging you, again, but how much do I feed them? Do I use the whole batch of BBS or 1/2 per feeding? I also have Walter and micro worms for them also.


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Unfortunately, there is no specific amount or formula I can give you. It's going to be based on your fish's appetites and size. My suggestion is to use a measured amount and see how they do. Go small then add as necessary. Most people overfeed the first few times trying to find that "magical amount" which is why doing water changes is going to be important. Siphon out any uneaten food before you feed the next feeding. If there is a lot of uneaten food, cut back on the amount for the next feeding. (y)
 
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